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Quran has the best guidance about war and peace.

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
.... if you read this verse in isolation ...

That brings up an interesting topic, which is context. There are many hundreds of verses that can be read in isolation and that convey a message regardless of what led up to it. Here's 9:111 again, and I defy anyone to show that it does not convey a basic tenet of islam that applies to all times and places:

"Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain ...".

Even though much of surah 9, according to 1400 years of scholarship, is 'revealed' in relation to the non-battle of Tabuk, it NEVER says so in the Qur'an. That means you don't have to know it. That means that context is 100% irrelevant in terms of understanding 9:111's message from Allah to the faithful. If you needed to know the context, don't you think Allah would have provided it?
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
What's your "beef" ?

- ISIS.
- Al Qaeda.
- Boko Haram.
- The Muslim Brotherhood.
- Al Aksa Martyrs Brigade.
- Al Shabab, and a few dozen others.
- Muslim countries with the death penalty for "insulting Islam".
- Muslim countries that execute LGBT people.
- Muslim countries that repress their female population.
- Muslim countries that teach their children to hate.

Is that enough beef for one sandwich?

Most nations fight wars..
Muslims should only fight "for the sake of the God" ..
..nothing sinister about that.

It is when they leave their borders to do so. Tell me why Muslim armies created a vast empire withing only 100 years of Mohamed's death. Tell me what a Muslim army was doing in France in 732. Tell me why they invaded India. Yes, nations fight wars, but Islam is unique in that it's a religion that invades, conquers, rapes, loots, and enslaves in accordance with the actions of its founder and its 'holy' book. Christian nations used to do the same, and they even did it in the name of Jesus, but to be horrid they had to ignore the words and example of Jesus.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
-Yes, nations fight wars, but Islam is unique in that it's a religion that invades, conquers, rapes, loots, and enslaves in accordance with the actions of its founder and its 'holy' book. Christian nations used to do the same, and they even did it in the name of Jesus, but to be horrid they had to ignore the words and example of Jesus.
Human beings do all kind of evil.
Your mistake, is making your own interpretations of scripture to fit YOUR agenda of hate..
How does that help?

It only breeds more hate, :rolleyes:
 

RAYYAN

Proud Muslim
This is a disingenuous argument. Do you really think that only 1% of a population would be allowed to act as they do without support. Wouldn't the other 99% try to stop them? The number that really matters, and of course can't be known, is the percentage that supports them. Terrorism doesn't happen without a lot of cheering and financing.

Consider Pakistan as an example of how a plurality of Muslims feel. It has the death penalty for those who "insult Islam" (like Asia Bibi). Political leaders knew they had to support that law if they wanted to win elections, because the majority of Pakistani Muslims support it. It's reasonable to assume they support the killing of infidels in other situation as well.

Also, using your logic we can assume that only a few 10's of thousands of Americans were upset at the election of Donald Trump in 2016, because that's how many went into the streets to protest. Your logic says the remaining 99+% of Americans were fine with the election.

I don't know much about politics, and I don't want to get into it
Yes, I believe only 1% are terrorist groups out of 1.8B Muslims
If you don't know the numbers of supporters and you can't show them, here we will go into the unknown
I think there was research by Pew to see how many Muslims support the ideology of Islamic terrorists
 

RAYYAN

Proud Muslim
That brings up an interesting topic, which is context. There are many hundreds of verses that can be read in isolation and that convey a message regardless of what led up to it. Here's 9:111 again, and I defy anyone to show that it does not convey a basic tenet of islam that applies to all times and places:

"Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain ...".

Even though much of surah 9, according to 1400 years of scholarship, is 'revealed' in relation to the non-battle of Tabuk, it NEVER says so in the Qur'an. That means you don't have to know it. That means that context is 100% irrelevant in terms of understanding 9:111's message from Allah to the faithful. If you needed to know the context, don't you think Allah would have provided it?

Well, this verse answered itself in previous verses 107
Someone gave a verse, I showed the answer on the same page
That means, really, whoever quoted this verse as an evidence doesn't know much
 

RAYYAN

Proud Muslim
I know only a tiny fraction of muslims become terrorist, some time ago at the height of ISIS i read it was around 0.6% off all muslims. (Sorry, i looked but couldn't find the source)

It means the leaders are less than 1% of all muslim but it says nothing about how the leaders view the Qur'an. I know for a fact that al-Baghdadi had a PhD in islamic studies.

It is significant for the families of those killed in terrorist attacks.

I agree :)
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Human beings do all kind of evil.
Your mistake, is making your own interpretations of scripture to fit YOUR agenda of hate..
How does that help?

It only breeds more hate, :rolleyes:

Your position is so weak that didn't even pretend to address the challenges I made. Here they are again:

- Tell me why Muslim armies created a vast empire withing only 100 years of Mohamed's death.
- Tell me what a Muslim army was doing in France in 732.
- Tell me why they invaded India.

Islamic history AND the way in which it jibes with Mohamed's example and commands in the Qur'an makes your protestations untenable.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
@stevecanuck
There is no point in arguing with you.
You misrepresent Islam.

Whatever took place in history, took place.
I'm sure there was evil on both sides .. but you exaggerate,
so as to suggest "Islam" is the problem.
It's not !
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
@stevecanuck
There is no point in arguing with you.
You misrepresent Islam.

Whatever took place in history, took place.
I'm sure there was evil on both sides .. but you exaggerate,
so as to suggest "Islam" is the problem.
It's not !

You don't seem to understand that refusing to answer questions while shouting, "IS NOT!", does not constitute an argument. You have nothing by way of defense, and you demonstrate that with every post. I believe we're done here.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Why could it not be done to people who were hostile towards Muslims and be defensive. What's your reasoning that it can be done only through offensive military action?
Because once the attackers had been repulsed beyond their borders, the Muslim forces would stop advancing after the retreating pagans. They could not expand beyond the area around Medina.
Pretty simple really.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
In determining whether Baha’u’llah was a true Manifestation of God for myself, first there are His Words and teachings which I believe are very relevant to our age. No teaching but the acceptance of all human beings as equals can possibly bring peace to the world.
Acknowledging that everyone is equal does not require supernatural input. The idea was codified long before bahaullah lived.

That means legally each person’s rights and freedoms regardless of race, religion, nationality or background is protected by an internationally enforceable world constitution.
This is where it becomes fantasy. A single world government will never happen. People are too diverse and around of their individuality.

These are the basic teachings of Baha’u’llah to bring justice to our world and rid it of wars, genocide and oppression.
The things that will make the world a more egalitarian and a safer place are things like universal free education and healthcare. Better welfare systems. Investment in sustainable infrastructure, etc. Practical, material improvements. Not vague platitudes about love and brotherhood.

Lastly are the prophecies in all religions regarding a Promised One. In Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Christian, Zoroastrian and Muslim traditions there are references to such a Figure Who we believe is Baha’u’llah.
Anyone can claim to be a prophet or messiah. Claims are ten a penny. It is evidence that is sorely lacking.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
All I’m saying is that your source is wrong.
On what grounds? And how do you know your c=source is accurate?
My sources are varied and partly corroborative. And the historical facts cannot be denied.
You are simply assuming that whatever some bloke said must be true - even though some of it is demonstrably untrue.

As you were not there you are relying on on sources that weren’t there either so you cannot present any argument as evidence.
The history of the expansion of the Muslim empire was recorded by various sources, some eye-witnesses. There is also archaeological evidence. You don't seem to uxnderdstrand how the study of history works.

Also, Bahaullah was not there so you can't use what he said as an argument, especially as he doesn't cite any supporting evidence.

The only true evidence is the Quran itself.
What are you taking about? There is plenty of evidence to show the Islamic empire expanding massively over the years during and after Muhammad's reign.

IF Baha’u’llah IS a Prophet sent by God then His Words are pure truth.
Unfortunately for your argument, you cannot even show that a god exists, so you can't claim that Bahaullah was anything to do with that god. The usual circular logic claims made by Bahais are obvious nonsense.

That’s the real issue here because all my arguments are based on God revealing the truth to His Manifestations.
Which is why your position is untenable.

So if you wish to prove my arguments wrong you must first prove Baha’u’llah is not true as I am claiming that His knowledge trumps everyone elses.
:tearsofjoy:
"Burden of proof" dear thing. You are claiming that a god exists, and that Bahaullah was his messenger. Therefore it is your responsibility to show said god exists before you can make any further claims involving it. And you can't do that. You simply resort to circular logic.

Unless as a human being you’re claiming you are infallible and can’t be wrong then you could be very wrong.
lol. Don't need to. I just need to show that my explanation is more likely, or my argument better supported than your god claim. And it clearly is.

But I’m claiming my source of information is not human but Divine and as such is infallible true knowledge based on the belief Baha’u’llah is a Manifestation of God.
But as you cannot provide anything to support your claim, it can be dismissed.

If you don’t want to consider Baha’u’llah could be a Manifestation then there’s no point in continuing this debate because I’ve found it to be true beyond doubt so all we can do is each go our own way.
You believe it to be true, but you are unable to show that your belief is true.


1. How Bahá'ís View Islam....
I could post a number of passages on how other groups or individuals have a very different view of Islam. Not sure what your point is?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Im disappointed that you misrepresented the Quran by not including what the Quran actually states. There are both easy to understand verses and allegorical ones but you have chosen to only present the clear verses. May I refer you to Sura 75 The Resurrection and ask you if you consider that to be clear because the Quran states it is unclear.
It is no secret that the Quran is at times vague, ambiguous and contradictory - despite claiming many times to be clear and easy to understand.

It's almost as if it was made up by someone as they went along. o_O
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Ok. That is with regards to rejection of Christ not a racist comment or remark. He also condemns kings and rulers and religious leaders for rejecting Prophet Muhammad, the Bab and His Manifestation, so He is not singling out any one people but all those who have rejected God’s Messengers.

Baha’is believe in Moses and the Torah. Baha’u’llah was only speaking about rejection of Christ.
OK. So Bahaullah's universal love and fellowship only extends to those who accept the stuff he accepts. He condemns those who differ in opinion on such matters.
So just like every other self-appointed leader.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
The real question here is does God have the authority to chastise and rebuke His creatures, followers and the world? If you cannot accept that then you cannot possibly believe in God for God’s Hands are not tied by anyone. He does as He pleases as He is God no?

Then the only thing that you really need to determine here is if Baha’u’llah speaks on behalf of God or not. Is He the ‘Lord of Hosts’ promised to the Jews or not? Is He the King of Glory? Baha’u’llah was descended from Abraham through Katurah and through Jesse the father of David so He is a descendant of David.

Here are some quotes from Baha’u’llah about this.

THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David.”

“LEND an ear unto the song of David. He saith: 'Who will bring me into the Strong City?' The Strong City is Akká, which hath been named the Most Great Prison, and which possesseth a fortress and mighty ramparts... Peruse that which Isaiah hath spoken in His Book. He saith: 'Get thee up into the high mountain, O Zion, that bringest good tidings; lift up thy voice with strength, O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings. Lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah: "Behold your God! Behold the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him."' This Day all the signs have appeared. A great City hath descended from heaven, and Zion trembleth and exulteth with joy at the Revelation of God, for it hath heard the Voice of God on every side.

But as far as rebukes there are many especially to kings and religious leaders. This is just one.


BECAUSE of you the Apostle (Muhammad) lamented, and the Chaste One (Fátimihs) cried out, and the countries were laid waste, and darkness fell upon all regions. O concourse of divines! Because of you the people were abased, and the banner of Islám was hauled down, and its mighty throne subverted. Every time a man of discernment hath sought to hold fast unto that which would exalt Islám, you raised a clamour, and thereby was He deterred from achieving His purpose, while the land remained fallen in clear ruin.
So the Bahai message is that it's all love and peace and fellowship... as long as you toe the line - but stray from the approved path and woe betide you!
Sounds kinda familiar. :rolleyes:
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
The Quran is in Arabic so translations vary which can interfere with the meaning.
So the one somewhat vague and garbled passage that you base your entire position on could have had its meaning changed in translation.
Whereas it is unlikely that 18 different verses were all mistranslated in the same way to give the same wrong meaning.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
What are the verses they interpreted to do all these horrible acts?
"And those who abuse the Messenger of Allah - for them is a painful punishment." Quran 9:62
"Indeed, those who abuse Allah and His Messenger - Allah has cursed them in this world and the Hereafter and prepared for them a humiliating punishment." Quran 33:57
"“A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.” – Abu Dawud" Abu Dawud
"The only punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is that they should be killed..." Quran 5:33
“Whoever insults Allah the Almighty, or insults one of the Prophets, then kill him." Umar Bin Al-Khattab

Sure, verses can be interpreted in different ways, but usually, we find the answer in the Quran itself
And this is the thing. If someone reads the Quran and sunnah and cones to a conclusion, then they are as justified as anyone else coming to a different conclusion. The accusation of misinterpretation can be levelled at anyone by anyone, not just by the moderates on the extremists.

Also, it is a fact that most who join ISIS are people who don't have strong Islamic foundation
And yet they gave up everything to travel to face hardship and possible death "fighting in the way of Allah", as the Quran commands.

So, let's see what verses ISIS interpreted to do those acts
Pretty much every ISIS action came with a press release quoting Quran, sunnah and classical tafsir.

"And if ye gain mastery over an enemy on the battlefield, deal harshly with them as a lesson for those who might follow". I wonder what well-publicised atrocities that verse may have prompted?

Those who claim that there is nothing in the Quran and sunnah that the likes of ISIS could use to justify their actions have clearly never read the Quran and sunnah.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
The Quran is a Book for both current and future generations. The clear signs were for how people should live to fulfil their lives. As to the future it is a guide to events that will come to pass in the future much like the Bible’s Book of Revelation. The Bible too is similarly woven with clear verses to guide our lives but prophecies for events of the future which we will come to unravel then.

Baha’u’llah is saying that with His appearing these unclear or symbolical scriptures are now unveiled as they were all prophesying His Manifestation.
Ok. So which are these mysterious passages, and what do they actually mean?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I see that it means God is teaching us to read with the Spirit and not our material senses.

This is the foundation of our free will choices, the ability to have a conscious knowledge of what is Good and Evil, the ability of choice.

This is why we are born on the edge of darkness and at the beginning of light. We are at the apex of material capacity and on the edge of our Spiritual potential. We have to be born from the human spirit into the Spirit that is the Messegers of God.

Regards Tony
Still haven't lost your taste for meaningless platitudes, I see.
What does all this mean, in practical terms - in a way that an uneducated manual labourer struggling to support a family might understand?
 
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