Samael_Khan
Goosebender
OK. Cool. I didn't know that stuff. Do Sunnis hold Hassan, Hussein and Fatima in the same light?
And do all the Imams have the same interpretations of verses?
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Quran 3:7
- Thread starter InvestigateTruth
- Start date
OK. Cool. I didn't know that stuff. Do Sunnis hold Hassan, Hussein and Fatima in the same light?
And do all the Imams have the same interpretations of verses?
I've read many hadiths on this directly or indirectly. For example in Tuhafaqul uqool, the letter of Imam Ali Al-Hadi (10th Imam) was explaining to his best capacity to a person about God's will with respect to guiding and misguiding, but at the end, said as far as it's unclear to seek refuge to God and leave it till it becomes clear, and said "those who follow the best of it" refers to those who follow the clear signs.
There is ahadith that say the Imams have knowledge of all the book and support it with different verses, among them "Nay, it is a clear signs in the hearts of those given knowledge" to be about them specifically, and that this verse verifies there is a people who the whole book is all clear signs to them. And we have hadiths that no one can recite or gather whole Quran but Imams, it's seen in this light, as the true recitation is often seen as the true way God intended, while Taweel in our hadiths is additional meanings and purposes. Tanzil (revelation) or recitation is again the true way God intended the Quran to be read and seen with respect to what the words mean in the Surah, while Taweel refers to deep layered meanings and additional signs you can derive from it.
Other hadiths say "mutashibhat" refers to their enemies and "muhkamat" refers to them. That is unclearness from Quran will lead to enemies of Ahlulbayt (as) because people interpret per their desires to say whatever they want, while the clear signs leads to Ahlulbayt (as) and manifests them.
There is also the fact, the Satan and his forces, cast sorcery with respect to every wish of a Prophet or Messenger.
[22:52] Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan cast with regards to his desire: but Allah will cancel anything that Satan casts regarding (it), and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom. (partially from Yusufali, I adjusted the translation)
لِيَجْعَلَ مَا يُلْقِي الشَّيْطَانُ فِتْنَةً لِلَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ مَرَضٌ وَالْقَاسِيَةِ قُلُوبُهُمْ ۗ وَإِنَّ الظَّالِمِينَ لَفِي شِقَاقٍ بَعِيدٍ {53}
[22:53] That He may make the suggestions thrown in by Satan, but a trial for those in whose hearts is a disease and who are hardened of heart: verily the oppressors are in a schism far (from the Truth):
وَلِيَعْلَمَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْعِلْمَ أَنَّهُ الْحَقُّ مِنْ رَبِّكَ فَيُؤْمِنُوا بِهِ فَتُخْبِتَ لَهُ قُلُوبُهُمْ ۗ وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَهَادِ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُسْتَقِيمٍ {54}
[Yusufali 22:54] And that those on whom knowledge has been bestowed may learn that the (Qur'an) is the Truth from thy Lord, and that they may believe therein, and their hearts may be made humbly (open) to it: for verily Allah is the Guide of those who believe, to the Straight Way.
Here 22:54 goes back to the possessors of understanding, as only they remember through the Quran. No one else really does see the clear signs and recitation.
We can see another dimension to 3:7, it's not just personal bias, for that can't account for the blindness to the household of Mohamad in Quran. It's actually, sorcery from Iblis and his forces, but then God says he will support the clear signs and prove them.
It's due to the fact, that God has uncast through the sayings of the Prophet, Fatima, and Twelve Imams, the misconceptions of Quran over all, and indirectly opened ways to uncast all that Iblis cast, that, the proof is complete. This is part of the reason why God was only pleased with Islam when the Wilayah of Ali (as) and his family was guaranteed to be conveyed through the generations at Ghadeer.
There is also a hadith Qudsi we have that names all Twelve Imams, but starts with the words from God "he doesn't believe in me who interprets my book per their caprice"
Some Sufis, not saying all, but some believe their Sufi leaders are included, so they believe the 12 Imams are included and are the highest saints, but see Sufi leaders included in this, as in their top leaders.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
The Sunnis sects do not consider Hassan, or Hussein as infallible. But in their Hadith collections, we can find that it is mentioned God only kept Muhammad, Hassan Hussein and Fatima Pure. It is based on a verse in Quran that states Allah only Wishes to keep People of the House pure. I think it was verse 33:33 or something. And in Sunni Hadithes also, it is stated who the people of House is in this verse.
Likewise in Sunni Hadithes, Ali is mentioned as the one who has Knowledge of Quran with Him.
Whether or not the Sunnis agree always with their own recorded Hadithes is unclear to me.
Sufis hold Imams to be poles of their time, and believe Abu Bakr and Umar were political leaders, but the spiritual Wilayah was with Ali. They believe Ali has knowledge of the book.
A lot of Sunnis are Sufis, but not all of them are. Some of them hold Ali to be a just a normal companion that was better in them in merit, but aside from that not all too special, and lower in merit then the first 3 Caliphs.
Some Sunni Sufis, also believe in the 12th Imam, the Mahdi to be in ghayba, not all, some believe he is to be born, but a lot believe he is the son of Hassan Alaskari.
Sufi Sunnis over all through out history, believed the 12 Imams to be Ma'hfooth or Ma'asoom, and for all intended purposes, chosen by God. Some like Ibn Arabi even saw Ali superior to all Prophets but Mohammad.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Did a Sufi leader claim to be well-grounded in knowledge? Who was he, and reference please if you have.
Open up "Quran-The Study" the famous one, and see 3:7.
Sunni interpretation: "only God knows all of Quran interpretation"
Sunni Sufi interpretation: "God and the firmly rooted in knowledge" which includes many Sufi leaders (aside from Twelve Imams).
Shia interpretation "God and the Ahlulbayt" know it's full interpretation in this nation, and no one else.
I don't know too much about Sufi leaders and their claims though.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
That is very interesting. I usually find the Sunni's source material to contradict their beliefs and when I bring hadiths up that are against their viewpoint they say it isnt authentic even though someone like Bukhari declared it authentic. So I don't know their criteria.
It sounds like they would say that those Hadiths about Ali and the family aren't authentic. I have heard christian apologists bring that up but then the Sunni's say that they are wrong.
They are authentic, they just have their own interpretations to them.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
I don't know about that Quran - the Study. Could you perhaps send me a link?
It certainly does sound like three different translations of the verse.
The Study Quran: A New Translation and Commentary
It's a very good book to inform you of history too and different views of verses. It's not complete and perfect in this regard, but it's a must if you are truly interested in studying world religions and Islam as well.
@InvestigateTruth
There is no verse in Quran that is clear to someone but not unclear to someone else. And there is no verse unclear to someone but not clear to someone else. And it's only Ahlulbayt that all of Quran is clear signs and none of is missed by them. However, believers, don't build anything on unclarity. They seek refuge from what is unclear to them, to with what is clear from it. This is both proven in Quran and in hadiths of Ahlulbayt.
There is no verse in Quran that is clear to someone but not unclear to someone else. And there is no verse unclear to someone but not clear to someone else. And it's only Ahlulbayt that all of Quran is clear signs and none of is missed by them. However, believers, don't build anything on unclarity. They seek refuge from what is unclear to them, to with what is clear from it. This is both proven in Quran and in hadiths of Ahlulbayt.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
Thanks very much for this. It will help me a lot in understanding the Quran.
You welcome, it's a good starting ground or introduction to Islamic sciences.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
I agree. Verse 3:7, says some of its verses are Muhkamaat, and some verses are Mutishabihat. But no one knows interpretation of the Mutishabihat verses except God and those who are well-grounded in knowledge.
How the Muhkamaat and Mutishabihat are translated is another thing. Many translators translated Mukamaat as clear, or deceive. As for Mutishaabihat, it is often translated Allegorical, symbolic, metaphoric, or unclear.
What matters, this verse is telling us, there are two types of verses. This is very clear, isn't it?
And there is a difference between Taweel and Tafseer. Do you know the difference?
You totally misunderstand the verse and what other verses of Quran says about it and what I'm saying and what hadiths say about it.
There isn't two types of verses and even if there was, this is not what it's about. It's about building on what is clear and not interpreting any verse on unclear grounds.
4:59 an unclear interpretation is followed by most Muslims but it doesn't make that only God and Ahlulbayt understand it. It's clear to believers.
Some verses are more funneled and so only a few understand. And there is aspects of Quran no one really fully understands but Ahlulbayt.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Yes, I am aware this verse can be translated in 2 ways, because indeed the Arabic verse 3:7 can be read in two ways, as there is no dot '.' To separate a verse in two sentences.
But as regarding the Suffis, it is not their leaders who claimed to well-grounded in knowledge. It is their followers who think their leader is well-grounded in knowledge. That is the difference with Shia Imams who claimed to be the well-grounded in knowledge Quran is talking about.
I'm not sure about your claim that Sufi leaders didn't claim it.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Obviously this verse is not saying All verses of the Quran are Mutishabihat. Some of them are Mutishabihat, and these are the ones an ordinary Muslim cannot know its interpretation. Only God and well-grounded in knowledge knows.
Quran does not say that ordinary people cannot understand the Muhkamaat verses.
4:59 as you are saying is clear to many ordinary people. It does not have to be God and well-grounded in knowledge to tell us its interpretation. Right?
What i am asking in OP, is show 10 verses which are Mutishabihat. The only way you can prove a verse to be Mutishabih, is to show how Imams revealed its hidden meaning, where no one else could possibly know.