Qur'an 2:256 and the sophistry it inspires.

[stevecanuck]

It is not the same comparing a said God (creator, deity) to a figment of your imagination or a creature of your imagination.

Until you realize that the above is fundamentally wrong, there will be no hope for you.

 

[stevecanuck]

Did you know that Islam had no more than a hundred or so followers for the first decade.

And then 'Allah' introduced rape and looting. Membership soared.

 

[stevecanuck]

OK, what are the 'errors' in the Quran, but give me real evidence of those errors, not just copy and paste from some anti-Islam sites.

86:5-7, "So let man consider from what he is created. He was created from a fluid, ejected emerging from between the backbone and the ribs".

I read this to my neonatologist friend and he just laughed.

 

[BrightShadow]

Until you realize that the above is fundamentally wrong, there will be no hope for you.

Until you realize your shop is not selling anything - you will keep losing your investment and time!
Take your shop and your investors to somewhere they can profit or just cut your losses and close your business!

 

[JerryMyers]

Ah, so it isn't a "translation" problem any more, it's "context" now is it?
This should be good.

Ah, displaying your ignorance and inability to think logically and rationally YET AGAIN!

If the translation is already wrong, then the whole interpretation of that passage is definitely wrong.

The issue of context when the passage is already wrongly translated does not even arise, the issue of context is only when the passage is wrongly interpreted.
Do you even understand the difference between ‘translation’ and ‘interpretation’???

Got any more to show me of your ignorance and incapability to think logically and rationally??
This should be good.

If it is describing the greatness of god, it is doing it by describing how he created the earth and stuff. And that description is wrong.
If the boxer said, "I became amateur champion, then I became Olympic champion, then I turned pro and became world champion" - yes, he is describing what happened in his boxing career. Just like Allah is describing what happened when he created everything.

The passage is describing the Greatness of God by REFLECTING back to ‘the creation of the earth and stuff’ and in particular the time it took.

Let’s put that in perspective – can you, one man, build a house in 2 days?? Let says it took you 2 years to build a house and someone else took 3 months to build a similar house, and he came to you and say, ‘Hey, it only took me 3 months to build this house and another 1 week to add the landscape and furnish the house’, was he describing how he build the house or was he telling you his greatness in his ability to build the house in 3 months?? He CAN NOT be describing how he build the house as to how he built the house is the same as how you build the house EXCEPT that you took 2 years while it took him only 3 months! That’s greatness in his ability!!

Truth is - it is your inability to think logically and rationally that is what stops you from seeing the true message of that passage, and that is SO sad!

Baffled as to why you think your argument is in any way coherent? (Actually, not baffled at all. You have no idea how rational argument works)

Yup, I am baffled as to why you think your argument is in any way coherent when clearly, most, if not all, of your comments show you have no idea how rational argument works and that’s probably because of your inability to think logically and rationally!!! So it is really funny when you try to imply that you know how rational argument works when clearly you yourself cannot think rationally!! THAT IS SO FUNNY, isn't it, my ‘scratching head, scratching knee’ friend??

 

[JerryMyers]

And then 'Allah' introduced rape and looting. Membership soared.

Ah, if it’s not the man who first introduced me to the Flying Spaghetti Monster himself!! The loonies are coming out now!!

Looks like the ’IITLR’ (Ignorance, Incapable to Think Logically and Rationally) Club has a new member!! URAAA! I am sure membership will soar after your entry!!

So tell me which Quran verse you think allows (or, as you put it, introduces) rape and looting???

 

[JerryMyers]

86:5-7, "So let man consider from what he is created. He was created from a fluid, ejected emerging from between the backbone and the ribs".

I read this to my neonatologist friend and he just laughed.

Which obviously reflects your friend’s ignorance and you, and that goes without saying.

In Arabic, the word "sulb" (translated as 'backbone') is also quite commonly used to mean the loins of a man. This is how it is used elsewhere in the Quran. For example, in Quran 4:23, Allah says: "Prohibited to you (for marriage) are wives of your sons proceeding from your loins (aslâb, the plural of sulb)."

Moreover, Arabs can also understand "sulb" to refer to a part of the male body and the "tarâ'ib"(translated as 'ribs') to a part of the female.

So really, all you are showing are just your ignorance and nothing is more hilarious than people who think they are more knowledgable than others, showing their arrogant stupidity!!

 

[KWED]

In Arabic, the word "sulb" (translated as 'backbone') is also quite commonly used to mean the loins of a man. This is how it is used elsewhere in the Quran. For example, in Quran 4:23, Allah says: "Prohibited to you (for marriage) are wives of your sons proceeding from your loins (aslâb, the plural of sulb)."

So really, all you are showing are just your ignorance and nothing is more hilarious than people who think they are more knowledgable than others, showing their arrogant stupidity!!

So you claim that semen comes from an area "between the loins and the ribs"?
That is demonstrably, anatomically wrong.

Moreover, Arabs can also understand "sulb" to refer to a part of the male body and the "tarâ'ib"(translated as 'ribs') to a part of the female.

So now you are claiming that semen comes from "between a part of the male body and a part of the female body".
That is not only wrong, but completely meaningless.

 

[KWED]

Ah, displaying your ignorance and inability to think logically and rationally YET AGAIN!

If the translation is already wrong, then the whole interpretation of that passage is definitely wrong.

The issue of context when the passage is already wrongly translated does not even arise, the issue of context is only when the passage is wrongly interpreted.
Do you even understand the difference between ‘translation’ and ‘interpretation’???

Got any more to show me of your ignorance and incapability to think logically and rationally??
This should be good.


The passage is describing the Greatness of God by REFLECTING back to ‘the creation of the earth and stuff’ and in particular the time it took.

Let’s put that in perspective – can you, one man, build a house in 2 days?? Let says it took you 2 years to build a house and someone else took 3 months to build a similar house, and he came to you and say, ‘Hey, it only took me 3 months to build this house and another 1 week to add the landscape and furnish the house’, was he describing how he build the house or was he telling you his greatness in his ability to build the house in 3 months?? He CAN NOT be describing how he build the house as to how he built the house is the same as how you build the house EXCEPT that you took 2 years while it took him only 3 months! That’s greatness in his ability!!

Truth is - it is your inability to think logically and rationally that is what stops you from seeing the true message of that passage, and that is SO sad!


Yup, I am baffled as to why you think your argument is in any way coherent when clearly, most, if not all, of your comments show you have no idea how rational argument works and that’s probably because of your inability to think logically and rationally!!! So it is really funny when you try to imply that you know how rational argument works when clearly you yourself cannot think rationally!! THAT IS SO FUNNY, isn't it, my ‘scratching head, scratching knee’ friend??

No idea what point you think you are trying to make there. It's just garbled nonsense.

 

[JerryMyers]

So you claim that semen comes from an area "between the loins and the ribs"?
That is demonstrably, anatomically wrong.

Again, you just proved that you just cannot understand what you read. Can you show me where in my explanation did I ever claim semen comes from an area "between the loins and the ribs"??

Guess an ignorant simpleton with zero integrity will always be an ignorant simpleton with zero integrity!!

So now you are claiming that semen comes from "between a part of the male body and a part of the female body".
That is not only wrong, but completely meaningless.

The only thing meaningless I see is your comments (which are not even explanations) which only proved your ignorance and inability to think logically and rationally.

Let’s look again at what the Quran 86:5-7 really said - "So let man consider from what he is created. He was created from a fluid, ejected emerging from between the backbone and the ribs".

1. The passage is describing from WHAT man is created, NOT from WHERE semen comes.

2. In my explanation, I also said Arabs can understand the "sulb" to refer to a part of the male body and the "tarâ'ib" to a part of the female. So, to further explain FROM WHAT man is created, the passage is saying in general, man is created from a fluid, ejected emerging from a part of the male (‘sulb’) and from a part of the female (‘tara’ib’).

So unless you think women do not ejaculate or eject any fluid during sexual intercourse, tell me what is so wrong and meaningless about that passage??

 

[JerryMyers]

No idea what point you think you are trying to make there. It's just garbled nonsense.

Of course, you have no idea...never have! How could anyone who thinks a wrongly translated passage will give a correct interpretation of that passage have any idea about anything?? That's just garbled nonsense!!

 

[KWED]

Again, you just proved that you just cannot understand what you read. Can you show me where in my explanation did I ever claim semen comes from an area "between the loins and the ribs"??

Oh dear...

You said "In Arabic, the word "sulb" (translated as 'backbone') is also quite commonly used to mean the loins of a man. This is how it is used elsewhere in the Quran."
Therefore, according to your argument, Quran 86:5-7 says "Man was created from a fluid issuing from between the loins and the ribs".
Anatomically, that is describing the lower abdomen - which is not where semen "issues from".
The Quran is wrong.
Therefore Islam is false.
QED.

Let’s look again at what the Quran 86:5-7 really said - "So let man consider from what he is created. He was created from a fluid, ejected emerging from between the backbone and the ribs".

1. The passage is describing from WHAT man is created, NOT from WHERE semen comes.

2. In my explanation, I also said Arabs can understand the "sulb" to refer to a part of the male body and the "tarâ'ib" to a part of the female. So, to further explain FROM WHAT man is created, the passage is saying in general, man is created from a fluid, ejected emerging from a part of the male (‘sulb’) and from a part of the female (‘tara’ib’).

Your "explanation" bears no resemblance to what the Quran says.

And once again, we have the hilarious argument that many bilingually fluent, Arabic speaking, Islamic scholars got it horribly wrong, but random Muslim convert on the internet knows better.

So unless you think women do not ejaculate or eject any fluid during sexual intercourse, tell me what is so wrong and meaningless about that passage??

Apart from the fact that the passage does not mention or even suggest any female fluids - did you really think that babies are made from the vagina's lubricating fluid? I'm guessing that you missed human biology at school. Were you brought up in the Deeyup Sayuth?

 

[KWED]

Of course, you have no idea...never have! How could anyone who thinks a wrongly translated passage will give a correct interpretation of that passage have any idea about anything?? That's just garbled nonsense!!

Ah, I see. You are claiming that only you know how to correctly translate and interpret the Quran.
Remind me what your qualifications in Classical Arabic and Quran studies are.

 

[JerryMyers]

Oh dear...
You said "In Arabic, the word "sulb" (translated as 'backbone') is also quite commonly used to mean the loins of a man. This is how it is used elsewhere in the Quran."
Therefore, according to your argument, Quran 86:5-7 says "Man was created from a fluid issuing from between the loins and the ribs".
Anatomically, that is describing the lower abdomen - which is not where semen "issues from". The Quran is wrong.
Therefore Islam is false. QED.

YET AGAIN displaying your inability to understand what you read, and not to mention, the inability to think logically and rationally!! Oh dear, indeed!

If you cannot show me where in my explanation I ever claim semen comes from an area "between the loins and the ribs" then, your comment here, like most of your comments, is just based on assumptions.
I was merely explaining that the Arabic word ‘sulb’, which was translated as ‘backbone’ in Quran 86:5-7 passage, does NOT literally have to mean backbone, as it could also mean ‘loin’ as in Quran 4:23 where the same Arabic word was used.
There’s nothing in that explanation that even implied I was claiming that semen comes from an area "between the loins and the ribs" – that’s only your assumption and we know how good you are in making assumptions!!

Your "explanation" bears no resemblance to what the Quran says.

Are you saying Quran 86:5-7 was describing WHERE semen comes from??? That only proves (again) what we both already know and that is you are incapable to understand what you read!!

Suggest you read that passage again, this time S-L-O-W-L-Y, and perhaps you can see that the passage clearly said "So let man consider FROM WHAT he is created…” and NOT “So let man consider FROM WHERE he is created…”. You do understand the difference between ‘from WHAT’ and ‘from WHERE’, don’t you??

And once again, we have the hilarious argument that many bilingually fluent, Arabic speaking, Islamic scholars got it horribly wrong, but random Muslim convert on the internet knows better.

Yes, your arguments are always hilarious – I told you that so many times.

Just because you got it horribly wrong does NOT mean many bilingually fluent, Arabic-speaking, Islamic scholars got it horribly wrong too. You need to stop comparing bilingually fluent, Arabic speaking, Islamic scholars to yourself because you are not even close to an ordinary Muslim man on the street, let alone to bilingually fluent, Arabic speaking, Islamic scholars – now that is HILARIOUS!!

Apart from the fact that the passage does not mention or even suggest any female fluids - did you really think that babies are made from the vagina's lubricating fluid? I'm guessing that you missed human biology at school. Were you brought up in the Deeyup Sayuth?

But it did mention if you can understand that passage as saying “….was created from a fluid, ejected emerging from a part of the male (‘sulb’) and from a part of the female (‘tara’ib’)”. Didn’t I mention Arabs can also understand "sulb" to refer to a part of the male body and e "tarâ'ib" to a part of the female??

I am guessing that you believe women never ejaculate or eject any fluid during sexual intercourse – you must have skipped human biology class at school.

 

[JerryMyers]

Ah, I see. You are claiming that only you know how to correctly translate and interpret the Quran.
Remind me what your qualifications in Classical Arabic and Quran studies are.

I told you to stop making “You claimed/are claiming …..” statements unless you are 110% sure, else you are making yourself look very silly and immature!

Now, show me where and when did I ever claim that only I know how to correctly translate and interpret the Quran??
See how silly and immature you look when you cannot back up what you accused others of claiming what they never claimed??

 

[KWED]

YET AGAIN displaying your inability to understand what you read, and not to mention, the inability to think logically and rationally!! Oh dear, indeed!

If you cannot show me where in my explanation I ever claim semen comes from an area "between the loins and the ribs" then, your comment here, like most of your comments, is just based on assumptions.
I was merely explaining that the Arabic word ‘sulb’, which was translated as ‘backbone’ in Quran 86:5-7 passage, does NOT literally have to mean backbone, as it could also mean ‘loin’ as in Quran 4:23 where the same Arabic word was used.
There’s nothing in that explanation that even implied I was claiming that semen comes from an area "between the loins and the ribs" – that’s only your assumption and we know how good you are in making assumptions!!

Verse 86:5-7 describes where in the body, semen comes from. The description is wrong.
You claim it is not wrong.
You claim that the word in that passage that is usually translated as "backbone" can also mean "loins".
Therefore, by your own argument, the passage is saying either semen comes from between the backbone and the ribs, or between the loins and the ribs.
Both descriptions are wrong.

Are you saying Quran 86:5-7 was describing WHERE semen comes from??? That only proves (again) what we both already know and that is you are incapable to understand what you read!!

Suggest you read that passage again, this time S-L-O-W-L-Y, and perhaps you can see that the passage clearly said "So let man consider FROM WHAT he is created…” and NOT “So let man consider FROM WHERE he is created…”. You do understand the difference between ‘from WHAT’ and ‘from WHERE’, don’t you??

Sorry, I keep forgetting that English isn't your first language (is it Spanish? I can get by in that if you prefer), and you haven't read the Quran.
The passage says that man is created from a fluid, and it also describes where that fluid comes from.... "Issuing from between the backbone and the ribs."

Just because you got it horribly wrong does NOT mean many bilingually fluent, Arabic-speaking, Islamic scholars got it horribly wrong too. You need to stop comparing bilingually fluent, Arabic speaking, Islamic scholars to yourself because you are not even close to an ordinary Muslim man on the street, let alone to bilingually fluent, Arabic speaking, Islamic scholars – now that is HILARIOUS!!

So, are you now accepting that you aren't a better expert on translating and interpreting the Quran than all those bilingually fluent Islamic scholars who you disagree with?

But it did mention if you can understand that passage as saying “….was created from a fluid, ejected emerging from a part of the male (‘sulb’) and from a part of the female (‘tara’ib’)”. Didn’t I mention Arabs can also understand "sulb" to refer to a part of the male body and e "tarâ'ib" to a part of the female??

1. That is not what the Quran says, according to the consensus of Bilingually fluent, Arabic scholars.
2. Babies do not come from vaginal fluid.

I am guessing that you believe women never ejaculate or eject any fluid during sexual intercourse – you must have skipped human biology class at school.

I'll say it again slowly...
Babies do not come from vaginal fluids.
So even when you fabricate a completely different idea to the one in the Quran in an attempt to rationalise a clear error - it is still wrong!

 

[KWED]

I told you to stop making “You claimed/are claiming …..” statements unless you are 110% sure, else you are making yourself look very silly and immature!

Now, show me where and when did I ever claim that only I know how to correctly translate and interpret the Quran??
See how silly and immature you look when you cannot back up what you accused others of claiming what they never claimed??

It is the implication of your claims.
The vast majority of scholars translate it as "between the backbone/loins and the ribs".
You claim it does not mean that and it is a mistranslation/misinterpretation.
What else is one supposed to infer than that you think you know better than they?

BTW, love the use of "110%" in the context of being silly. Intentional irony, one hopes!

 

[stevecanuck]

Kwed, thank you for essentially doing my job for me. I'll buy you a beer if we ever meet.

 

[JerryMyers]

Verse 86:5-7 describes where in the body, semen comes from. The description is wrong.
You claim it is not wrong.
You claim that the word in that passage that is usually translated as "backbone" can also mean "loins".
Therefore, by your own argument, the passage is saying either semen comes from between the backbone and the ribs, or between the loins and the ribs.
Both descriptions are wrong.

There’s nowhere in my explanation that ever implied that I am suggesting that ‘the passage is saying either semen comes from between the backbone and the ribs, or between the loins and the ribs’ – that is what you hope I am saying but, that’s not what I am saying.

Therefore, by your own argument, you are just proving that you are a simpleton who is ignorant, incapable to understand what you read, and incapable to think logically and rationally!

Sorry, I keep forgetting that English isn't your first language (is it Spanish? I can get by in that if you prefer), and you haven't read the Quran.

LOL. You can’t even understand the difference between “from WHAT” and “from WHERE” in English, and you want me to explain it in Spanish??!! Wait!! Is that your first language??? Now that explains why you don’t seem to understand what you read in English!!! (BTW, I think Spanish is a cool language and hope one day to master that language).

And you are making yourself a laughing stock to the Muslims again!!! You really should refrain from telling the Muslims they have not read the Quran because based on your comments (which reflect your ‘understanding’ of the Quran), you are just making a fool of yourself every time you try to ‘explain’ a Quran passage back to the Muslims!!

But hey, if making a fool of yourself is what you do best, please go on and make a fool of yourself!! I am sure you are not going to disappoint us Muslims!! This is FUN!

The passage says that man is created from a fluid, and it also describes where that fluid comes from.... "Issuing from between the backbone and the ribs."

Here we go again – you just love going in circles, don’t you?? Responding to this would mean I am going in circles too. So, please refer back to my past comments relating to this.

So, are you now accepting that you aren't a better expert on translating and interpreting the Quran than all those bilingually fluent Islamic scholars who you disagree with?

Huh?? Why make such a stupid statement when I have never ever claimed I am a better expert on translating and interpreting the Quran?? Can you show me where and when I ever say I am ‘a better expert on translating and interpreting the Quran than all those bilingually fluent Islamic scholars’???

And how do you know those Islamic scholars disagree with me?? Have you asked them how they understand/interpret (not translate Arabic to English) Quran 86:5-7?? Making assumptions again?? Don’t you know that assumption is the mother of all f*ckups?? No wonder your comments are just f*ckup nonsense!!

1. That is not what the Quran says, according to the consensus of Bilingually fluent, Arabic scholars.

How do you know what the Quran says or did not say?? Just by simply reading the translations??? No wonder you are scratching your head and your knee!!

And have you asked those bilingually fluent, Arabic Islamic scholars HOW they understand/interpret that passage??

2. Babies do not come from vaginal fluid.
I'll say it again slowly...
Babies do not come from vaginal fluids.
So even when you fabricate a completely different idea to the one in the Quran in an attempt to rationalise a clear error - it is still wrong!

Well, nobody is saying babies come from vaginal fluids, you only assume they did. But then again, babies do not come from just sperms either. Don’t believe me?? Why don’t you extract your sperm (I am sure you know how), place it in a container, and see whether you can produce a baby just from your sperm. I'll say it again slowly...you… are…. an ignorant….who is….. incapable ……to think…. logically…. and rationally.

 

[KWED]

There’s nowhere in my explanation that ever implied that I am suggesting that ‘the passage is saying either semen comes from between the backbone and the ribs, or between the loins and the ribs’ – that is what you hope I am saying but, that’s not what I am saying.

*sigh*
@stevecanuck cited 86:5-7 as an example of an error in the Quran, because it says that man is created from a fluid that comes from "between the backbone and the ribs".
You claimed that it is not an error because "Backbone" is a mistranslation and it actually means "loins". Therefore your claim is that it means man was created from a fluid coming from between the loins and the ribs.
This is also wrong.
You then further modified your claim by saying that it also means mis is created from a fluid coming from between the man and the woman's body.
This is also wrong because vaginal fluids are not involved in conception.

So, you presented two alternative interpretations. Both of those interpretations are factually wrong.

LOL. You can’t even understand the difference between “from WHAT” and “from WHERE” in English, and you want me to explain it in Spanish??!! Wait!! Is that your first language??? Now that explains why you don’t seem to understand what you read in English!!! (BTW, I think Spanish is a cool language and hope one day to master that language).

I have already explained.
The passage first says what man is created from. It then describes where it comes from.
The passage explains both what and where. And that explanation is incomplete and inaccurate - thus proving the Quran was not authored by an infallible, omniscient god.
However, if it was authored by men with a rather primitive understanding of human reproduction, it makes perfect sense. This is confirmed by the passages that are supposed to describe stages of human embryology. They are also incomplete, inaccurate and certainly no better than the descriptions already existing at the time.

Huh?? Why make such a stupid statement when I have never ever claimed I am a better expert on translating and interpreting the Quran?? Can you show me where and when I ever say I am ‘a better expert on translating and interpreting the Quran than all those bilingually fluent Islamic scholars’???

You claimed that "a fluid coming from between the backbone and ribs" is a mistranslation and misinterpretation.
That translation/interpretation if favoured by the majority of translations by bilingual Islamic scholars. You claim it is wrong. Therefore you are claiming that you know better than they. It's really not that difficult to grasp.

And how do you know those Islamic scholars disagree with me??

Because they say "x" but you insist that it is "not x".

Have you asked them how they understand/interpret (not translate Arabic to English) Quran 86:5-7??

I don't need to, because they have written down and published their opinions. Do you not understand how books work?

How do you know what the Quran says or did not say??

By reading it. You really don't know how books work, do you?

And have you asked those bilingually fluent, Arabic Islamic scholars HOW they understand/interpret that passage??

They have written it down and published it so they don't have to keep repeating the same answer to multiple individuals.

Well, nobody is saying babies come from vaginal fluids,

You did, by saying that the passage means "man is created from the sexual fluids emitting from a man and a woman"

But then again, babies do not come from just sperms either.

Indeed. But the Quran only mentions the one fluid.
Of course, you claim it mentions two, but babies doesn't come from two fluids either. So whichever way you slice your desperate explanations the Quran is wrong.