RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
Which came first, the Bible or Norse Mythology?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Quick Question
- Thread starter RedDragon94
- Start date
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
Which, in short, means it's really hard to say.
It is interesting to investigate where all the various religions that worshipped multiple "gods" came from, if we all started off with one God and one truth in the garden of Eden. How did belief in all these gods and religions get started?
The things they have in common usually are in their mythology. Belief in giants and powerful but licentious gods goes back to the earliest religions. Norse, Roman and Greek mythology in particular influenced the Christians, where we see a mixture of various religious beliefs influencing the names of the days of the week and months of the year etc.
There is a common thread running through all ancient religions.....Belief in more than one god; belief that an immoral part of man departs from the body at death; and a place of eternal torture for the wicked....usually in flames that cannot be extinguished. These were not taught in ancient Judaism but many beliefs were adopted from the Greeks, particularly with regard to an immortal soul and the abode of the dead. When Constantine wanted Roman Catholicism to become the state religion in Rome, he saw to it that the pagan Romans still had their favorite beliefs and celebrations by changing their names to something the Christians did not object to....so all religions end up being related in some way.
If you line up this history with what the Bible says, it all becomes very clear.
The Genesis account of Noah's day shows that there were indeed 'giants' in the world who were licentious bullies. These were the hybrid offspring of fallen angels who materialized human form and co-habited with women to produce these gigantic offspring whom the Bible calls the "Nephilim". (which literally means those who cause others to fall) It was on account of the violence cause by these freakish men that God determined to flood the world so that they would perish and send their errant fathers back to the spirit realm. Having lived through that time and surviving the flood, men took that experience of their forefathers and embellished them, as humans are want to do. The confusing of the language at Babel led to all these beliefs cropping up all over the world. (Genesis 9:1-9)
All these religions ideas came from the same place and appear to have a basis in fact. (provided of course that you accept the Bible as a factual account.)
The things they have in common usually are in their mythology. Belief in giants and powerful but licentious gods goes back to the earliest religions. Norse, Roman and Greek mythology in particular influenced the Christians, where we see a mixture of various religious beliefs influencing the names of the days of the week and months of the year etc.
There is a common thread running through all ancient religions.....Belief in more than one god; belief that an immoral part of man departs from the body at death; and a place of eternal torture for the wicked....usually in flames that cannot be extinguished. These were not taught in ancient Judaism but many beliefs were adopted from the Greeks, particularly with regard to an immortal soul and the abode of the dead. When Constantine wanted Roman Catholicism to become the state religion in Rome, he saw to it that the pagan Romans still had their favorite beliefs and celebrations by changing their names to something the Christians did not object to....so all religions end up being related in some way.
If you line up this history with what the Bible says, it all becomes very clear.
The Genesis account of Noah's day shows that there were indeed 'giants' in the world who were licentious bullies. These were the hybrid offspring of fallen angels who materialized human form and co-habited with women to produce these gigantic offspring whom the Bible calls the "Nephilim". (which literally means those who cause others to fall) It was on account of the violence cause by these freakish men that God determined to flood the world so that they would perish and send their errant fathers back to the spirit realm. Having lived through that time and surviving the flood, men took that experience of their forefathers and embellished them, as humans are want to do. The confusing of the language at Babel led to all these beliefs cropping up all over the world. (Genesis 9:1-9)
All these religions ideas came from the same place and appear to have a basis in fact. (provided of course that you accept the Bible as a factual account.)
Thief
Rogue Theologian
if your using a bible somewhat as we know it now......(stretch and reach for this)
300ad
what were the Norse doing in 300ad?
don't know
likely chasing women
making swords
sailing uncharted waters
and making up stories
while drinking mead
Not true.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Exactly. I was going to say, "It depends how you mean this question. Are you talking about the oral tradition that predated the books or the codification into books?" Even then Christianity goes back a few hundred years before the Bible was written. So, Meh!
SabahTheLoner
Master of the Art of Couch Potato Cuddles
Given that some of the earliest and most famous written records of Norse mythology was written by a Christian with a deep respect for his native Icelandic heritage, it's hard to approximate exactly when Norse mythology was "created" and how it evolved. And given its similarity to Anglo-Saxon and Germanic myths, Norse myth probably came from earlier stories from earlier Germanic tribes.
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
That's funny, because not even your religion started off with one god. YHVH (Jehovah--however you transliterate the Tetragrammaton) was but one god in the Canaanite pantheon, until his cult grew in power, merged him with El (the chief deity), and took over from there.
Do you know what "licentious" means? I think you need something to back that up, because even Freyja had her scruples.
I second Jainarayan; this is not a universal at all. Norse beliefs don’t have a “place of eternal torture”, and for the Greeks Tartarus wasn’t for the wicked, but those who had personally angered the gods. “Unquenchable flames” was also not a motif, and pulls from the Jewish metaphors of burning pits for garbage. Few – if any – European beliefs had a notion of “immoral parts of humanity” in the sense of a sinful soul. I don’t know where you’re getting that from, but it’s largely inaccurate.
That’s not quite how it happened. Rome was always very accommodating to other beliefs for that time (except during Nero’s reign), and often held places of worship for many religions in the same spaces. When Christianity became the state religion, they took on the habit of merging everything completely; taking applicable practices (e.g. Saturnalia’s relation to Christmas) and changing them to apply to Christian beliefs. Enough was kept so that it would remain familiar to the non-Christians, and make for conversion all the more easier.
The religions are not related; Rome stole and changed them.
We’re not comparing history with what the Bible says, as the two paint very different pictures. If anything, here the topic is the history of various religions – namely the Norse. Those beliefs did not come from anything biblical, nor are the Norse gods the Nephilim.
So far as the Norse are considered, there are artifacts that clearly depict their mythology that dates back to the Bronze Age (3200 BCE), including Mjolnir pendants that depict Thor's weapon as an axe. To put into context that you would understand, this is about 2,000 years before it's believed Moses was given the Ten Commandments (1450 BCE). 1,000 years before the Epic of Gilgamesh was written (2150 BCE - which Noah's flood was based on), and 1,000 years before Stonehenge was completed (2600 BCE).
So to answer the threads question, I would say that it's very safe to bet that Norse mythology came about well before the Bible, or even Hebrew mythology.
RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
When did the oral traditions begin for both?
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
We don't know a lot about the lore from the prehistoric record. @gnostic any ideas on how far back the tales go in Nordic mythology? I've asked Gnostic because he has researched this sort of stuff well before I first met him over a dozen years ago. (He'd probably have a kitten if I let him have a look at my ancient copy of the Nibelungenlied.)
A no frills website, but some good info there. Timeless Myths
Although the section on Ymir should be greatly expanded.
Last edited:
It is true of any religion that teaches that man "has" a soul rather than him "being" a soul. (Genesis 2:7)
That means that reincarnation relies on belief that the soul is not the living breathing mortal creature, but merely something that inhabits and animates the body. What we believe about the soul depends on where our ideas originated. In Hinduism the majority who hold these beliefs mainly reside in one geographical location....India and Nepal.
Hinduism is in opposition to biblical Christianity on almost every count of its belief system yet it has the same thread running through it as all the rest....belief in a multiplicity of gods, an immortal soul passing through rebirth from one body to another, and a place where the wicked are punished. So, it is true.
It is opposed to Christianity in that Christians believe in just one God who is both personal and knowable. (Deuteronomy 6:5; 1 Corinthians 8:6) They have one set of Scriptures and teach that God created the earth and all creatures who live upon it. (Genesis 1:6; Hebrews 11:3) They believe that man is created in God's image and lives only once in this world. (Genesis 1:27; Hebrews 9:27-28) It teaches that salvation is through Jesus Christ alone . (John 3:16; 6:44; 14:6; Acts 4:12)
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
No, it's not true. Heathenry teaches that we have both soul and spirit, yet is lacking of any realm of eternal punishment. You're speaking about things you know little to nothing about, it seems.
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
It'd be near impossible to tell this, given the nature of oral traditions. But if we're going by known archeological records then we have the following:
Abraham - the patriarch of the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) is believed to have lived in the timeframe of 2000 - 1000 BCE. Despite being the patriarch of the Abrahamic religions, Yahweh did not become a prominent deity until the Iron Age (1200 BCE – 500 BCE).
The Dagenham idol (dated to 2250 BCE) is believed to be a depiction of Odin, as the left eye is crafted to be damaged - calling to bear the story of Odin's sacrifice of his eye to the Well of Mímir.
No, it is still not true. Btw, one could rightly say Christianity is in opposition to Hinduism. Hinduism is the older and more established faith, with none of the schisms Christianity has. This is historical fact. Many ideas in Christianity are suspiciously a reflection of Hinduism, including (much to the chagrin of some Hindus and Christians) a Triune God/dess.
As to your incorrect comments:
- Wickedness and evil are not concepts generally accepted in Hinduism.
- We have action (karma) and the reactions to those actions, somewhere, sometime in this life or another.
- here is no place of punishment. There is no Hell that is even remotely related to the Christian Hell.
- Not all polytheistic faiths believe in reincarnation.
Btw, Hindus also believe in One God who is both personal and knowable. That is the point of Hindu worship and practice... to know God. As for the rest, I know what Christians believe... I was Christian for half of my 60 years.
RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
Ooo nice link.We don't know a lot about the lore from the prehistoric record. @gnostic any ideas on how far back the tales go in Nordic mythology? I've asked Gnostic because he has researched this sort of stuff well before I first met him over a dozen years ago. (He'd probably have a kitten if I let him have a look at my ancient copy of the Nibelungenlied.)
A no frills website, but some good info there. Timeless Myths
Although the section on Ymir should be greatly expanded.
Can we have links for YHWH being only one god of the Canaanite pantheon. Who says so?
Canaan was the Land promised to the descendants of Abraham hundreds of years before taking possession of it, and Israel were told to clear the land of its foul inhabitants and to steer clear of adopting their disgusting religious practices. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) It was a failure on their part to fully carry out that command that landed them in trouble. (Deuteronomy 7:4;20:17, 18; Judges 3:5, 6) They ended up imitating the practices of the Canaanites. That does not make YHWH one of the Canaanite "gods" at all. It just makes Israel disobedient as they often were.
Since YHWH goes back to the garden of Eden, he is the first and only true God of humankind. After the fall, humanity went astray for the most part...but not all. The fact that men of integrity still existed down through history who were not bending a knee to any false deities, speaks for itself. And it is noteworthy that the faithful ones continued to speak the original language of Noah after God confused the language at Babel. Man's original language was preserved down to the time of Christ.
The demon fathers and their disgusting offspring were very licentious. The Bible says that they took whoever and as many as they wanted as a wife, regardless of whether they belonged to another man or not. Who was going to argue with a gigantic bully? The Bible account does not mention female offspring of the materialized angels nor does it recount any offspring from the Nephilim, so they were probably sterile. No matter, they were all wiped out in the flood anyway. The demons were not permitted to materialize again, but they continue to plague mankind as they always have, invisibly and with great stealth....I don't believe that it will be for much longer though.
I don't think I mentioned Norse beliefs in that context but they also rely on the existence of a spiritual part of humans that goes somewhere else at death. The name of the place where they went as well of the goddess who welcomed them was Hel, wasn't it?
I see that Norse beliefs involve no notion of reward or punishment....the dead appear to be having a good time carousing and living the same kind of life that they did when they were alive......
I can see how that would be very appealing to some.
Which is basically what I said. There was no "Christianizing" of paganism in Roman Catholicism, but only a "paganization" of Christianity. It remains to this day. So many Norse customs were adopted in the celebration of Christmas. It was never a Christian celebration to begin with.
All mythology is based on the Bible's account of the flood, which occurred almost 2,500 years before the common era. It was not recorded until Moses was inspired to write it all down in Genesis about 860 years later. The Norse religion is young compared to Abrahamic beliefs.
I beg to differ. The Bible takes us back to well before the Norse religion. Abraham was born around 2018 BCE. He was around 80 years of age when he liberated Israel from slavery in Egypt. You do the math. The Bible takes us back over 1600 years before Abraham.
I speak about what I have researched. Having a soul and a spirit is taught in Judaism and original Christianity, but when pagan ideas began to infiltrate the "church" it followed the path of the pagans and gave new meaning to the word "nephesh" (soul). It went from being "a living breathing creature" to a "disembodied spirit" that only inhabits the body and departs at death to some invisible place. The Bible teaches that we "are" a soul....not that we "have" one.
There can only be one truth and we have to find it.
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
Archaeology and human history says so. This is something that you can quite easily search for on your own, is very common knowledge, and is not lacking in sources for you to cut your teeth on. I am not going to provide links for something so prevalent.
Oh, I'm sorry. I'm basing my statements on cultural fact, not a mythological story shared by several cultures of the Fertile Crescent.
That's just more slander, not anything to back up your claims. You're specifically mentioning "licentious gods", not demons or nephilim. Do you have any clue what you're talking about, or are you just regurgitating rubbish spoon-fed to you with the Jehovah's Witness seal of approval?
By stating that any religion that teaches of a human spirit also has a place of eternal punishment, you included Norse beliefs by proxy. And you are wrong; there is no realm of eternal suffering and punishment where the wicked and undesirable are sent.
Helheimr is the Hall of the Dead, yes. It is not a place of suffering, but of final rest.
Then you don't see very well. Those who die honorably - either in battle or with great renown and glory - are chosen to live among the Einherjar in the Halls of Valhalla and Sessrúmnir. Those who die accursed - murderers, rapists and oathbreakers - are devoured by Níðhöggr at the shores of Náströnd, and are no more.
Yes, there was, and that's where what I said is not what you said. Entire myths of various gods in the Roman pantheon were merged into the figure of your Christ, and several mythical locations conglomerated to form your perdition. You may see this as a "paganization" of Christianity, but it's the exact opposite; these images and stories were given a Christian veneer, and took on Christian meanings not native to what they were before.
No, it's not.
No, it's not, as I've demonstrated in Post #14. Norse artifacts outdate even pre-Abrahamic notions by at least two centuries, and that's being generous. Disagree if you will, but the best thing that you've got riding against archeological fact is myth. Which does not stand up to it at all.
Cool. So the Dagenham idol of Odin, Chieftain of the Æsir gods in Norse beliefs, is still 232 years older than Abraham. You do know how dates work Before Common Era, right?
According to myth, this cannot be said enough. The Völuspá takes us back to the forming of the cosmos, so I'm hoping you can see how futile discussion is when relying on mythology to prove our points.
Research more, and actually listen to people who try to explain things to you - even things you disagree with. Elsewise you remain in an ignorant state.
The notion of humans having multiple souls/spirits has root in Animism, which was the faith system before civilization. Meaning that it far outdates Judaism and Early Christianity by a significant span of time. So your claim here of "pagan infiltration" is just baseless nonsense.
Interesting......what brand of "Christian" were you?.....and did you not balk at the idolatry?
Or were you Catholic and used to it?
or perhaps you felt right at home with another trinity?
I wonder if the Tower of Babel looked something like this?
You felt comfortable with gods like this rather than following Jesus Christ?
How can you do that? Do you have an ethnic connection to Hinduism?
I can understand Hindu > Christian but Christian > Hindu is baffling to me.
Can you explain what made you go there?