Like Him having total control over my life and wanting worship and praise 24/7 and going through suffering etc.
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- Thread starter Jos
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So you're an apatheist then?
Yeah I don't wanna get married either, I'm a loner by nature.
lukethethird
unknown member
It does, it's just interesting to know people's attitudes and beliefs especially concerning religion.
Before I respond to your last post, I'll just throw in this one....
The Bible indicates that he was once a perfect spirit creature. But, "perfect" simply means that something fulfills all that it was created to do.
Perfect did not mean that intelligent creatures could not abuse that faculty. This is why God provided consequences for our actions.
Being human in his case did not involve the imperfection of sin passed down to us as Adam's children. Jesus was not a son of Adam enslaved to sin, but a miraculously produced son of God, who was sinless. He had to be to pay the ransom. A sinless life had to be offered to cancel out, or to pay for the debt that Adam left for all of us. God's law was "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life". This denotes equivalency. What was lost was perfect human life, the price paid was a perfect human life.
This was a parable, not to be taken literally. The rich man pictured the self-righteous Pharisees, and the beggar represented the lost sheep, the spiritually impoverished ones to whom Jesus was sent. Their deaths indicated a change in their status. They changed places. The bosom of Abraham denoted a favored position with God...lost by the Pharisees but gained by those who accepted the Christ.
Its the situation that is prophesied...not the individuals who find themselves in it. Free will is not free will if we are stuck in something we have no choice about. Our choices determine our future.
Thanks for reading them.
You can't ask a question that I haven't already found the answer for. The more I study, the more I learn and the more I learn, the more excited I am about the future.
The Bible indicates that he was once a perfect spirit creature. But, "perfect" simply means that something fulfills all that it was created to do.
Perfect did not mean that intelligent creatures could not abuse that faculty. This is why God provided consequences for our actions.
Being human in his case did not involve the imperfection of sin passed down to us as Adam's children. Jesus was not a son of Adam enslaved to sin, but a miraculously produced son of God, who was sinless. He had to be to pay the ransom. A sinless life had to be offered to cancel out, or to pay for the debt that Adam left for all of us. God's law was "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life". This denotes equivalency. What was lost was perfect human life, the price paid was a perfect human life.
This was a parable, not to be taken literally. The rich man pictured the self-righteous Pharisees, and the beggar represented the lost sheep, the spiritually impoverished ones to whom Jesus was sent. Their deaths indicated a change in their status. They changed places. The bosom of Abraham denoted a favored position with God...lost by the Pharisees but gained by those who accepted the Christ.
Its the situation that is prophesied...not the individuals who find themselves in it. Free will is not free will if we are stuck in something we have no choice about. Our choices determine our future.
Thanks for reading them.
You can't ask a question that I haven't already found the answer for. The more I study, the more I learn and the more I learn, the more excited I am about the future.
lukethethird
unknown member
That is only part of the story. What exactly is God's Kingdom? What were you taught that it is...how does it "come" and how does it accomplish God's will being "done, on earth as it is in heaven? This is the important part....what you said is part of the means of salvation...but there is so much more to the story. Where does the Kingdom fit into that picture?
Ah, I have studied with a few Pentecostals in my time. The one thing they expressed to me by way of a common criticism was the flashy, often showy displays in connection with the holy spirit. The other common concern was the speaking in tongues which many of them felt was faked. Being "slain in the spirit" was also mentioned as more to do with emotions getting out of control than something miraculous. The truth is, the Bible indicates that the gifts were given only when the church was in its infancy, and that once the Christian congregation was firmly established, these 'childish' needs to see "miracles" was no longer necessary.
Paul wrote....1 Corinthians 13:8-13...
"But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. 12 For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love."
The gifts would no longer identify the true Christian church.....the more important aspects of Christ's teachings...."faith, hope and love" would now appeal to more spiritually mature individuals. (John 13:35)
Unfortunately, satan can do tricks too and he likes to keep people thinking that the gifts are still in operation. But he only props up false worship.
Jesus spoke about the judgment time.....Matthew 7:21-23...
"Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’"
Do you see what these ones are offering Jesus as proof of their discipleship? Yet Jesus says he NEVER knew them. NEVER means NOT EVER.
Paul again mentions the devil's agenda.....2 Thessalonians 2:9-12....
"But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."
Do you see the danger? "Powerful works....lying signs and wonders" Its a trap. Pentecostal churches to me seem like they play on emotions rather than accurate Bible knowledge. This I have ascertained from Pentecostals themselves. It is something for you to consider.
No way. Free will is a cruel illusion if that is the case. We choose our own path and its destination. No one's life is pre-ordained, except those who, like John the Baptist had a key role to play in connection with the Messiah.
The "hell" taught in Christendom is not found in the OT. Immortality of the soul isn't either. Jesus was Jewish and he taught from Jewish scripture.
There are various words translated "hell" in the NT of many Bibles. None of them describe suffering after death for the simple reason that there is nothing conscious to experience any pain or emotion. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10) Humans go to "hell" (sheol, hades, the grave) to sleep. All the dead are to be raised as Jesus promised. (John 5:28-29) He brings them forth from their tombs.
Who told him that I wonder?
Would you like a list of all the prophesies Jesus fulfilled....? Its a long one. The Jews cannot accept the idea that they missed identifying their Messiah because of what that means for them. Imagine!! Many individual Jewish people have come to accept Christ but as a nation, because of their continued disobedience they have been abandoned as incorrigible. (Matthew 23:37-39)Yes, I know. I have been debating about evolution for decades.
The "transitional fossils" if you have ever seen them, and the illustrations and diagrams that often accompany them, are products of imagination, not evidence. Their evolutionary "chain" is missing so many links that it is not a chain at all unless you fill in the blanks with suggestion. Its easy to see once you know about it.
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
So you love a good childhood fairy tale.
Why shouldn't the Genesis myth be subjected to scientific scrutiny? If the story has falsehoods, then the whole thing is suspect. Unless you love to believe in lies that distorts your view of reality that is.
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
So why don't you go ask your "god" for an actual answer instead of making up wild guesses?
InChrist
Free4ever
So what is so bad about choosing to give God control over your life since as the Creator the reality is He has control anyway? What is wrong with worshiping/loving One who has demonstrated sacrificial love for you? Granted, no one likes suffering, but according to the scriptures the suffering of this life pales in comparison to the eternal joy in store.
I think I remember being taught that Christians are supposed to help with building God's kingdom on earth. What else is there to the story?
What about those who report experiencing miracles in the modern era?
I was taught that God gave us all spiritual gifts to help with building up His kingdom... that's not true?
But I've heard people prophesy and the prophesied thing came true and people have been healed and stuff and they've exorcised demons too. Those were all fake?
I didn't mean preordain as in predestine but preordain as in planned that the person would exist
So the concept of hell found in the NT is false?
But I heard that certain cures for diseases could not have come about if not for evolution...Yes, I know. I have been debating about evolution for decades.
Exactly it doesn't matter if I give Him control because He's in control anyway but putting that aside, I never asked to be born and I definitely didn't ask to be born as a being who needed someone else to sacrifice themself so I could be forgiven. From the moment I was born I was basically handed a debt in the form of God's forgiveness that I couldn't pay, if I didn't exist, He wouldn't have needed to sacrifice for me. I'm jitbij control of the fact that I need a saviour. God could have avoided this by not creating. If I knew that love required sacrifice like that, I would have wished not to be here. I don't want anyone sacrificing anything for me but being born with a sin nature and needing a Saviour was out of my control and I wish it didn't have to be that way. I wish God gave everyone the opportunity to say no to being here.
Do you know what science is and how it is done? Genesis can't be subjected to scientific scrutiny any more than art, law or poetry. Its completely unrelated.
InChrist
Free4ever
It seems to me you are wasting a lot of time thinking about something in a nonsensical way because the fact is that you were born and are here. Why not just move on with reality instead of imagining you would have preferred not to have been born? For one thing, how could God have given anyone the "opportunity to say no to being here"? If a person never existed in the first place they couldn't say no to anything.
Do you have a home, health, food, family, friends, education? Why not try focusing on an attitude of gratefulness, instead of pointlessly wishing you had never been born? Why not look around and ask God to show you ways to use your life to bless others?
Let's see what the Bible has to say about the Kingdom.
First of all, what is a kingdom? It is a "king" with a "dom"ain. So a rulership by a king over a territory that belongs to him and the people over whom he rules. We know who the Bible designates as King...it is clearly Jesus Christ. It was Daniel who saw his enthronement in a vision thousands of years before it took place. (Daniel 7:13-14)
Isaiah 9:6-7....speaking prophetically of the Messiah said....
"For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us;
And the government will rest on his shoulder."
So the Kingdom is a "government".
Paul indicated its purpose......“It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth.” (Ephesians 1:9, 10)
The purpose of God's Kingdom is to bring everything back into harmony, both in heaven and on Earth.
It will take a thousand earth years to accomplish it, (Revelation 20:6) but when you have forever to live, what does it matter?
Daniel 2:44....alluding to a prophetic dream had by the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar concerning the march of world powers from his time to ours....says...
“In the days of those kings [ the present world powers] the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever".
So this kingdom "government" is going to take over rulership of this world by force, crushing all corrupt, devil-inspired human rulerships out of existence, forever.....and replacing them as man's only government. Only then can the Lord's prayer be fulfilled.....God's will can "be done on earth as it is in heaven" because all the nations ruled by satan will be eliminated. There will be just one government for the whole earth...and one people....God's people.
Can you think what good news that will be for suffering and divided humanity?
I would be wary of any of them given the information provided for you by the scriptures. Miracles today would be more an act of the devil, than an act of God. Why do I say this?
At 2 Corinthians 11:14-15 Paul warns that....“Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works.” (2 Corinthians 11:14, 15)
Think for a moment what that is saying. If the devil can transform himself into "an angel of light", then who is going to see the darkness behind his activities? They will seem to be legitimate and beneficial. And if satan has ministers, i.e. servants who think that they are participating in works of light, but the power behind those works is not God's, then think why we are warned to watch out for "powerful works" and "signs and wonders"....its because of who is doing them, masquerading as something he is not. His is a deceiver...remember? Those deceived by him are the ones Jesus rejects. (Matthew 7:21-23)
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He gave the spiritual gifts to build the church that Jesus founded in the first century. Once that church was established back then, after the deaths of the apostles, there would be no more gifts because the apostles were the only ones who could pass them on. They were a demonstration on a small scale of what to expect once the Kingdom began to rule the earth. (Revelation 21:2-4)
You understand that the demons have been around way longer than we have? They too have perfected their craft. If they can generate a prophesy, they can then fulfill it.
If they can generate sickness, they can heal it.....
if they can possess people then they can withdraw from them. The tricks are meant to deceive, but think about the gifts in the first century and compare.
What prophesy do we have from the first century Christians? We have the words of Jesus and the apostles, all recorded for us in scripture. What prophesy does the church have?
We have healings in the first century that were carried out by Jesus and his apostles....how many of them were failures? Did you know that even the robe of an apostle draped over a sick person's body, made them well....or even if their shadow was to fall on someone as they passed by, a healing took place. A woman merely touched the outer edge of Jesus' garment and was instantly healed.
Is that what we see today? I have spoken to many people whose healings failed and they were blamed for not having enough faith. It was very demoralizing for them, making them feel unworthy. But the Bible says that if any of the gifts failed it was because of a lack of faith on the part of the healer, not the recipient. The same power that created the Universe does not lose its strength.
Not so. God has planned the existence of very few individuals. We are the random generation of the union of two people. If God was pre-ordaining the existence of individual people, then please explain how rape or incest can produce a child? Or produce a deformed or stillborn child.
According to the Encyclopedia Americana...."Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word "hell". The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.”
We rely on the translators to get things right but are all those translation trustworthy?
Translators have allowed their personal beliefs to color their work instead of being consistent in their rendering of the original-language words.
For example: (1) The King James Version rendered she’ohlʹ as “hell,” “the grave,” and “the pit”; haiʹdes is therein rendered both “hell” and “grave”; geʹen·na is also translated “hell.”
(2) Today’s English Version transliterates haiʹdes as “Hades” and also renders it as “hell” and “the world of the dead.” But besides rendering “hell” from haiʹdes it uses that same translation for geʹen·na.
(3) The Jerusalem Bible transliterates haiʹdes six times, but in other passages it translates it as “hell” and as “the underworld.” It also translates geʹen·na as “hell,” as it does haiʹdes in two instances. The exact meanings of the original-language words have been obscured....so has the real understanding.
So what is "gehenna" and what is "hades"? Do they mean the same as "the lake of fire?
"The Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) was outside the walls of Jerusalem. For a time it was the site of idolatrous worship, including child sacrifice. In the first century Gehenna was being used as the incinerator for the filth of Jerusalem. Bodies of dead animals were thrown into the valley to be consumed in the fires, to which sulfur, or brimstone, was added to assist the burning. Also bodies of executed criminals, who were considered undeserving of burial in a memorial tomb, were thrown into Gehenna. Thus, at Matthew 5:29, 30, Jesus spoke of the casting of one’s “whole body” into Gehenna. If the body fell into the constantly burning fire it was consumed, but if it landed on a ledge of the deep ravine its putrefying flesh became infested with the ever-present worms, or maggots. (Mark 9:47, 48) Living humans were not pitched into Gehenna; so it was not a place of conscious torment."
Excerpts from Hell — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Jesus warned..."And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna." (Matthew 10:28) So in keeping with Jewish understanding of the term, the whole person is consumed by this symbolic fire. In the Revelation, the lake of fire is called "the second death". This also pictures everlasting death. Nothing that goes into this "fire" ever comes out. The second death has no resurrection. And even "death and hades" end up in this lake....never to dog mankind ever again.
I think its the other way around actually. It is because of adaptation that many diseases that were previously cured by antibiotics, are now coming back stronger and immune to the antibiotics because the drugs were over-prescribed and the bacteria have armed themselves for their preservation and become untreatable "superbugs". This is adaptation at work. It is a natural process designed to help living things survive in a changed environment. Because man is not as wise as he imagines himself to be, sometimes he gets it very wrong.
I understand what you're saying but you just won't understand where I'm coming from. You'd have to see things from my perspective to understand and btw if He did give people a chance to say no to existing then there would just be an alternate timeline or world where they don't exist and God is all-powerful so it wouldn't be impossible for Him to do but anyway you said earlier that God will redeem all the children who lost their lives at a young age but doesn't Job 14:1-6 and Psalm 139:16 state that God predetermined how long each person would live?
Also I'm nonsensical because I don't want anyone sacrificing and suffering on my behalf? I don't see how that's nonsensical. Isn't a good person supposed to try and avoid having others suffer on their behalf? Bridging into existence required sacrifice and suffering on the part of my parents and apparently too on God's part and I'm unreasonable because I wanted to avoid all that?
