Questions to Quranists

[egcroc]

Hello there, My friend Union asked me more than once to open a thread here and ask my Questions about Qur'anism, So here we go...

Question #1: how can you follow the Qur'an alone while rejecting all other islamic sources? does it make sense to you to believe in a book without knowing anything about the biography of its author and the historical events that surrounded its writing?

 

[Union]

Hello there, My friend Union asked me more than once to open a thread here and ask my Questions about Qur'anism, So here we go...

Question #1: how can you follow the Qur'an alone while rejecting all other islamic sources? does it make sense to you to believe in a book without knowing anything about the biography of its author and the historical events that surrounded its writing?

Hello egcroc . I am truly honored that you fulfill my request and starting to emptying out your issues with Quranism . Thanks a lot again . So here we go ...

Answer#1 : Firstly I need to clarify you that there is a difference between historical source of Islam and religious source of Islam . According to Quranism there is only one religious source of Islam which is Qur'an . Hadith , Sirah and Tafsir can never be the religious source of Islam as according to Almighty GOD Qur'an is self-sufficient and detailed enough to establish Islam .

Having said that , we can use the rest 'so-called' Islamic sources as the historical books which may can help us to give some knowledge of the history of Islam.

Apart from these sources , we can always find abundant historical contemporary sources which shade light on the history of Qur'an and and biography of Prophet Muhammad . Please see details in the following links about the archaeological evidences of the history of Islam :
Islamic History

Hope that helps inshALLAH.

 

[egcroc]

Hello egcroc . I am truly honored that you fulfill my request and starting to emptying out your issues with Quranism . Thanks a lot again . So here we go ...

Answer#1 : Firstly I need to clarify you that there is a difference between historical source of Islam and religious source of Islam . According to Quranism there is only one religious source of Islam which is Qur'an . Hadith , Sirah and Tafsir can never be the religious source of Islam as according to Almighty GOD Qur'an is self-sufficient and detailed enough to establish Islam .

Having said that , we can use the rest 'so-called' Islamic sources as the historical books which may can help us to give some knowledge of the history of Islam.

Apart from these sources , we can always find abundant historical contemporary sources which shade light on the history of Qur'an and and biography of Prophet Muhammad . Please see details in the following links about the archaeological evidences of the history of Islam :
Islamic History

Hope that helps inshALLAH.

good, I actually respect that, and actually this is what makes the difference between theism and deism, the former is based on blind faith while the latter is based on reason and evidence....

still what you said above- assuming that it's true- only proves that it's the original script written 1400 years ago...which brings up the next question

Question #2: how do you verify that this script is the actual word of god?

 

[Union]

good, I actually respect that, and actually this is what makes the difference between theism and deism, the former is based on blind faith while the latter is based on reason and evidence....

still what you said above- assuming that it's true- only proves that it's the original script written 1400 years ago...which brings up the next question

Question #2: how do you verify that this script is the actual word of god?

Thanks egcroc . Your question 02 is most probably the key to unlock the whole mystery of Islam . Almighty GOD claimed that HE is the author of Qur’an (Ref Q. 2.97,4.82,6.19,10.37,12.2 etc.) and also claimed that the Qur’an is without any flaw and discrepancy (Ref.Q.41.42,15.9,10.15 etc.). Further to add this claim Almighty GOD challenged the whole universe to create a book like Qur’an which HE , the Mighty Himself answered that nobody can meet this challenge (Ref. Q.17.88,2.23,10.37/38,11:13,52:33/34).

These facts of Qur’an are really astonishing and in the same time very interesting. Why I am saying it to be interesting, because only a single (not even two) fault in Qur’an can slam the whole challenge of Qur’an and can turn it to a joke.
Now the whole 1400 years have passed by , nobody can find a single error in Qur’an ,a genuine error (e.g., 2+2=9/ the sun rotates around the earth/moon is bigger the sun etc. you know what I mean) , not the alleged errors propagated by the hate-mongers of Islam , which all were refuted by a little scholarly observations .

Hence please bring any error from the Qur’an you think genuine, let us discuss them here. This is of course not to debate but for clarification and to make the discussion more fruitful (we are in DIR ).


Another important way to look into the issue in hand is the fact that Qur’an was revealed 1400 years ago in Arab desert. According to majority of the historians Prophet Muhammad was illiterate or at the best knew a little to read and write. Despite all those drawbacks, Qur’an revealed through Muhammad dared to deal with almost all branches of knowledge and science. Be it the history or archaeology, medicine to embryology, astronomy to astrology, physics to mathematics, you just name it. In many instances we had to wait 1400 years to discover that scientific fact in Qur’an . That is to say , Qur’an contains modern science which impossible to be known 1400 years back . This also suggests that Qur’an never be authored by Muhammad or any human being sitting that time on the face of the earth.
Also the chapters , the sentences , words and letters of Qur’an are constructed and woven in such a mathematical way was quite impossible in that age of its revelation . This in total confirms that Qur’an is from GOD , the Almighty . There are other so many ways to discuss this issue like the literature value of Qur’an , mystic and philosophical description , spiritual healing , the most effective sociology-economic plan etc. but let not prolong this discussion .


Whatsoever, please pay out from your valuable time to see few of the amazing scientific facts in Qur’an (my favorite ones:yes: ), which can successfully prove the existence of a super being behind the composition of Qur’an.


[FONT=&quot]Qur'an's challenge that nobody can ever meet (Incomplete)[/FONT]
Beautiful repartition of Surah
Words and letters of the Qur’an
The Miracle of the orders of the chapters
Miracles of the initials used to the chapters
Yet another math-miracle in the chapters with initials
The encoding of 114 chapters
Prime numbers in Qur’an
The sea and land ratio
Man on the moon and chapter 54 of Qur’an
Iron and chapter 57 of Qur’an
Numerical analogy of Adam and Jesus
Calculating the speed of light from Qur’an
Calculating the age of universe from Qur’an
Big Bang and big crunch
Expanding universe
Wormholes and relativity of time
The earth is round and rotating
Planetary Orbits

And many more ……

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
Miracles of the Qur'an - Modern Science Reveals New Miracles of the Qur'an
Harun Yahya
Islam: Creation, Science, Miracle, Quran & Religion. Book Exploring The Qur'an.
The Quran: Unchallangeable Miracle
:: Quran and Science ::- - - - - - -:: Islam and science :: Scientific miracles in the holy Quran:: Convert to Islam::

 

[egcroc]

Thanks egcroc . Your question 02 is most probably the key to unlock the whole mystery of Islam . Almighty GOD claimed that HE is the author of Qur’an (Ref Q. 2.97,4.82,6.19,10.37,12.2 etc.) and also claimed that the Qur’an is without any flaw and discrepancy (Ref.Q.41.42,15.9,10.15 etc.). Further to add this claim Almighty GOD challenged the whole universe to create a book like Qur’an which HE , the Mighty Himself answered that nobody can meet this challenge (Ref. Q.17.88,2.23,10.37/38,11:13,52:33/34).

These facts of Qur’an are really astonishing and in the same time very interesting. Why I am saying it to be interesting, because only a single (not even two) fault in Qur’an can slam the whole challenge of Qur’an and can turn it to a joke.
Now the whole 1400 years have passed by , nobody can find a single error in Qur’an ,a genuine error (e.g., 2+2=9/ the sun rotates around the earth/moon is bigger the sun etc. you know what I mean) , not the alleged errors propagated by the hate-mongers of Islam , which all were refuted by a little scholarly observations .

Hence please bring any error from the Qur’an you think genuine, let us discuss them here. This is of course not to debate but for clarification and to make the discussion more fruitful (we are in DIR ).


Another important way to look into the issue in hand is the fact that Qur’an was revealed 1400 years ago in Arab desert. According to majority of the historians Prophet Muhammad was illiterate or at the best knew a little to read and write. Despite all those drawbacks, Qur’an revealed through Muhammad dared to deal with almost all branches of knowledge and science. Be it the history or archaeology, medicine to embryology, astronomy to astrology, physics to mathematics, you just name it. In many instances we had to wait 1400 years to discover that scientific fact in Qur’an . That is to say , Qur’an contains modern science which impossible to be known 1400 years back . This also suggests that Qur’an never be authored by Muhammad or any human being sitting that time on the face of the earth.
Also the chapters , the sentences , words and letters of Qur’an are constructed and woven in such a mathematical way was quite impossible in that age of its revelation . This in total confirms that Qur’an is from GOD , the Almighty . There are other so many ways to discuss this issue like the literature value of Qur’an , mystic and philosophical description , spiritual healing , the most effective sociology-economic plan etc. but let not prolong this discussion .


Whatsoever, please pay out from your valuable time to see few of the amazing scientific facts in Qur’an (my favorite ones:yes: ), which can successfully prove the existence of a super being behind the composition of Qur’an.


[FONT=&quot]Qur'an's challenge that nobody can ever meet (Incomplete)[/FONT]
Beautiful repartition of Surah
Words and letters of the Qur’an
The Miracle of the orders of the chapters
Miracles of the initials used to the chapters
Yet another math-miracle in the chapters with initials
The encoding of 114 chapters
Prime numbers in Qur’an
The sea and land ratio
Man on the moon and chapter 54 of Qur’an
Iron and chapter 57 of Qur’an
Numerical analogy of Adam and Jesus
Calculating the speed of light from Qur’an
Calculating the age of universe from Qur’an
Big Bang and big crunch
Expanding universe
Wormholes and relativity of time
The earth is round and rotating
Planetary Orbits

And many more ……

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
Miracles of the Qur'an - Modern Science Reveals New Miracles of the Qur'an
Harun Yahya
Islam: Creation, Science, Miracle, Quran & Religion. Book Exploring The Qur'an.
The Quran: Unchallangeable Miracle
:: Quran and Science ::- - - - - - -:: Islam and science :: Scientific miracles in the holy Quran:: Convert to Islam::

whoa, easy now my friend, for your information I only left islam after all the so-called scientific miracles of the Quran were refuted to me and even some scientific errors were revealed, we'll come back to it, but let's just put this aside for now, let's just assume you and I had a hypothetical lengthy debate where you Finally prove to me the Quran is Flawless and filled with scientific miracles, this brings up the next question...

Question #3 (Note: this goes for all other holy scripts as well): Congratulations, the quran turned out to be flawless :bow:, does it necessarily prove it's from divine origin?
.. the only thing this proves is that it was revealed to Muahmmed through some superior non-human power that holds a vast amount of scientific information, that power could be anything, not necissarily a deity... in Fact the same could be said for all holy scripts like the bible and the vedas

Note: there's in Fact a religious group called the Raelians who believe that all religions were made by a superior Alien race called the Elohim and revealed to great influential humans in human history like Buddha, Moses, Jesus, Muhammed...etc. sure there's no proof for that claim but it remains a possibility right?

 

[Union]

whoa, easy now my friend, for your information I only left islam after all the so-called scientific miracles of the Quran were refuted to me and even some scientific errors were revealed, we'll come back to it, but let's just put this aside for now, let's just assume you and I had a hypothetical lengthy debate where you Finally prove to me the Quran is Flawless and filled with scientific miracles, this brings up the next question...

Question #3 (Note: this goes for all other holy scripts as well): Congratulations, the quran turned out to be flawless :bow:, does it necessarily prove it's from divine origin?
.. the only thing this proves is that it was revealed to Muahmmed through some superior non-human power that holds a vast amount of scientific information, that power could be anything, not necissarily a deity... in Fact the same could be said for all holy scripts like the bible and the vedas

Note: there's in Fact a religious group called the Raelians who believe that all religions were made by a superior Alien race called the Elohim and revealed to great influential humans in human history like Buddha, Moses, Jesus, Muhammed...etc. sure there's no proof for that claim but it remains a possibility right?

Thanks egcroc . I am a man of science and technology . It is my passion , my hobby , my academic education as well as my profession . It is science which brings me close to the Qur'an - just the opposite scenario compared with you . By the way , do you know Arabic ? I want to mean do you read Quran from its original language and try to understand it from there ? Please let me know .

If you think that Qur'an got some scientific errors , please bring them here , let us discuss them .

Now the answer to your third question . I have already mentioned using the ref. of Qur'an that the author of Qur'an identified Himself as deity (ALLAH is Arabic ) . Hence it is quite evident that whatsoever we think of this Powerful being - HE is GOD . ALLAH , the Exalted also expressed Himself as the Creator , Sustain-er , Nourish-er , Cherish-er,Almighty , All-knowing , Omniscient , Omnipotent , Ever-lasting etc.

I have no problem to think with the capacity of our brain that GOD might be a super-non human being from outer space , as we know that our brain is limited - but whatsoever , HE is GOD , a deity , the creator of universe and ever lasting .

 

[egcroc]

Greetings Union, sorry that I've been out for quite a while, I got busy lately but I'm glad to be back, I really enjoy having conversation with you

Thanks egcroc . I am a man of science and technology . It is my passion , my hobby , my academic education as well as my profession . It is science which brings me close to the Qur'an - just the opposite scenario compared with you

that's good for me to know

By the way , do you know Arabic ? I want to mean do you read Quran from its original language and try to understand it from there ? Please let me know .

yes, actually I'm a native speaker, and I've been reading the quran since my childhood and even memorized quite a few chapters

If you think that Qur'an got some scientific errors , please bring them here , let us discuss them .

here you go my friend, the most obvious of them all, the Flat Earth...
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/science-religion/151982-koran-like-bible-states-non-moving.html

and this is what the Saudi Mufti said about this matter in a full book, he said the earth is flat, the sun and the stars are orbiting it, and anyone who says otherwise is an infidel
http://archive.org/stream/Hassouni_5/Eladillaennaklia-ibnBaz#page/n0/mode/1up

Now the answer to your third question . I have already mentioned using the ref. of Qur'an that the author of Qur'an identified Himself as deity (ALLAH is Arabic ) . Hence it is quite evident that whatsoever we think of this Powerful being - HE is GOD . ALLAH , the Exalted also expressed Himself as the Creator , Sustain-er , Nourish-er , Cherish-er,Almighty , All-knowing , Omniscient , Omnipotent , Ever-lasting etc.

back to our sequence of logical questions trying to verify the authenticity of the Quran...

but now you have fallen into a logical loophole my friend, you believe the Quran is from the Creator, God, the First Cause (my own naming for him) only because it says so?!!! this doesn't make much of a proof to me...

this reminds me of some question I had when I was younger... how do we know that God is really what he says about himself in his book, could it be that he's not telling the truth?!!... but then I used to get frightened from these thoughts and quickly got them out of my head and pray for forgiveness..

 

[Union]

Greetings Union, sorry that I've been out for quite a while, I got busy lately but I'm glad to be back, I really enjoy having conversation with you

that's good for me to know

yes, actually I'm a native speaker, and I've been reading the quran since my childhood and even memorized quite a few chapters

here you go my friend, the most obvious of them all, the Flat Earth...
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/science-religion/151982-koran-like-bible-states-non-moving.html

and this is what the Saudi Mufti said about this matter in a full book, he said the earth is flat, the sun and the stars are orbiting it, and anyone who says otherwise is an infidel
ElAdillaEnnaklia



back to our sequence of logical questions trying to verify the authenticity of the Quran...

but now you have fallen into a logical loophole my friend, you believe the Quran is from the Creator, God, the First Cause (my own naming for him) only because it says so?!!! this doesn't make much of a proof to me...

this reminds me of some question I had when I was younger... how do we know that God is really what he says about himself in his book, could it be that he's not telling the truth?!!... but then I used to get frightened from these thoughts and quickly got them out of my head and pray for forgiveness..

No problem mate . I do appreciate that you squeeze the time to spend with me here . Thanks again for that .

The link you provided , nowhere it can be found ' sun and moon rotate around the earth' or ' the earth is fixed and firm ' . The writer unwisely using different verses which ends up with nothing about the topic he started . Therefore please provide me a verse from the Qur'an as I mentioned above to prove clearly the objection .

Again , we no need to agree blindly if the author of the Qur'an claimed that HE is GOD . The nature of the book itself upholds the claim to be true . A book revealed 1400 years back can never be as super-scientific as it is unless it is authored by a super-intellect being with a knowledge never been available on the face of the earth . It couldn't be Muhammad nor any Arab .

Let me give you a simple example . In 1905 , A.Einstein revealed his 'theory of relativity' in his work 'On the Electrodynamics of moving bodies' . Now if he would claim in his paper that he was a scientist , do you really need to agree with him only because he claimed that or upon the success-fulness of his 'theory of relativity' would clarify him automatically as a scientist . Same applies to the Qur'an and its author .

As a side note , please verify the theory of relativity in Qur'an, 1300 years before Einstein discovered it . Thanks .

 

[egcroc]

The link you provided , nowhere it can be found ' sun and moon rotate around the earth' or ' the earth is fixed and firm ' . The writer unwisely using different verses which ends up with nothing about the topic he started . Therefore please provide me a verse from the Qur'an as I mentioned above to prove clearly the objection .

Exactly, you see what I did there?!!!

My point is, the Quran is a vague book... it's verses can hold many meanings and interpretations, you can't just have one single meaning and say this is the one true meaning and ignore the other crude and sometimes unscientific meanings just to fit a science theory that could turn up wrong after all, some prominent Muslim scholars like al Biruni reject the 'scientific miracles' matter altogether because they say it's unacceptable to subjugate an absolute holy text to ever changing science theories ...

a perfect example for that would be the verse "والارض بعد ذلك دحاها"... the pro-miracle team says دحي means the ostrich egg... the anti-miracle team says the same word means flat like ostrich nest.... you can look up the word and you'll find out it does mean both...

I recommend you a very good read by a fellow muslim like you that shows you that the basic logic behind the scientific miracles is in itself wrong

Does the Qur

Again , we no need to agree blindly if the author of the Qur'an claimed that HE is GOD . The nature of the book itself upholds the claim to be true . A book revealed 1400 years back can never be as super-scientific as it is unless it is authored by a super-intellect being with a knowledge never been available on the face of the earth . It couldn't be Muhammad nor any Arab .

I'll give you a hypothetical Amen to that, still you haven't answered my question, how do we know that this super-intellect being with such vast knowledge is God, the Creator, the First Cause????!!!!

Let me give you a simple example . In 1905 , A.Einstein revealed his 'theory of relativity' in his work 'On the Electrodynamics of moving bodies' . Now if he would claim in his paper that he was a scientist , do you really need to agree with him only because he claimed that or upon the success-fulness of his 'theory of relativity' would clarify him automatically as a scientist . Same applies to the Qur'an and its author .

As a side note , please verify the theory of relativity in Qur'an, 1300 years before Einstein discovered it . Thanks .

just a question, what if the theory of relativity and the string theory mentioned in the article were proven wrong... does this mean the Quran is wrong?

As another side note, the word Hubuk mentioned in the Article to indicate the cosmic fabric also has several different meanings in Arabic, it means a celestial path (indicating the movement of stars at night), also means to thoroughly build or fabricate (indicating the work of God)

 

[Union]

Exactly, you see what I did there?!!!

My point is, the Quran is a vague book... it's verses can hold many meanings and interpretations, you can't just have one single meaning and say this is the one true meaning and ignore the other crude and sometimes unscientific meanings just to fit a science theory that could turn up wrong after all, some prominent Muslim scholars like al Biruni reject the 'scientific miracles' matter altogether because they say it's unacceptable to subjugate an absolute holy text to ever changing science theories ...

Hi egcroc . A vague book can be exposed without much effort and within short period of time . Qur'an revealed 1400 years back and even in this century thousands of science-consious people are converting to Islam by observing the scientific miracle of Qur'an only . Whatsoever , the theory you presented , has nothing to do with the current scope of our discussion. By taking your problem in understanding the Qur'an , at least you admitted that you couldn't manage to bring a direct verse which could prove ' sun and moon rotate around the earth ' . Hopefully next time you will try something specific to prove your case , as equal to the standard of the error I told you earlier , 2+2=9 .

a perfect example for that would be the verse "والارض بعد ذلك دحاها"... the pro-miracle team says دحي means the ostrich egg... the anti-miracle team says the same word means flat like ostrich nest.... you can look up the word and you'll find out it does mean both...

If I am not mistaken , you quoted the verse 79.30 , where the root Dal Ha Waw used as perfect verb . As it is a verb , hence it can't be a noun like ostrich egg or its nest , rather the core meaning will be spreaded/expanded/stretched out/extended etc. It really indicates to continental drift theory of the earth .



[079:030] And after that He spread the earth,

I recommend you a very good read by a fellow muslim like you that shows you that the basic logic behind the scientific miracles is in itself wrong

Does the Qur



I'll give you a hypothetical Amen to that, still you haven't answered my question, how do we know that this super-intellect being with such vast knowledge is God, the Creator, the First Cause????!!!!

Thanks for that article . Its too big , I will look it in leisure time . and the other question , I answered it , but you don't want to understand it .

just a question, what if the theory of relativity and the string theory mentioned in the article were proven wrong... does this mean the Quran is wrong?

As another side note, the word Hubuk mentioned in the Article to indicate the cosmic fabric also has several different meanings in Arabic, it means a celestial path (indicating the movement of stars at night), also means to thoroughly build or fabricate (indicating the work of God)

Qur'an never promoted any scientific theory which can be proven wrong in future . Remember Qur'an was revealed 1400 years before and it contains all those scientific facts for all those 1400 years - still none of them proven to be false so far .:yes:

And the writer of the link translated 'Hubuk; rightly as the it has to do something with knot , bound , tie etc.

Thanks .

 

[egcroc]

Hi egcroc . A vague book can be exposed without much effort and within short period of time . Qur'an revealed 1400 years back and even in this century thousands of science-consious people are converting to Islam by observing the scientific miracle of Qur'an only . Whatsoever , the theory you presented , has nothing to do with the current scope of our discussion. By taking your problem in understanding the Qur'an , at least you admitted that you couldn't manage to bring a direct verse which could prove ' sun and moon rotate around the earth ' . Hopefully next time you will try something specific to prove your case , as equal to the standard of the error I told you earlier , 2+2=9 .

and it remains the same case with you, you brought me some vague verses and said they are talking about some scientific theories while if you look up their interpretations (the original ones from the tafsir books) you'll find out they hold several different meanings (some of which are even contradictory)... and I brought you the example of the words D-H-W and H-B-K...

just for the sake of ending this, here's a whole article about the scientific miracles of the Hindu Vedas...
Hindu Vedas - SCIENTIFIC MIRACLES - David Icke's Official Forums

if you read them you'll find out that- unlike the Quran- the Vedas are speaking in a direct and clear language, no need to interpret the meaning of the Verses... you bring me one verse from the Quran like the ones in the Veda then we'll talk... BTW, I read your other thread on this forum trying to debunk the scientific errors of the Quran... you're trying to explain some short verses in several long paragraphs... the problem with the verses is that their simple direct meanings could seem to contradict science while you go a long way trying to give different interpretations to them... can't you see anything wrong with this?


If I am not mistaken , you quoted the verse 79.30 , where the root Dal Ha Waw used as perfect verb . As it is a verb , hence it can't be a noun like ostrich egg or its nest , rather the core meaning will be spreaded/expanded/stretched out/extended etc. It really indicates to continental drift theory of the earth .

[079:030] And after that He spread the earth,

From Lisan Al-arab

[ دحا ]

دحا : الدحو : البسط . دحا الأرض يدحوها دحوا : بسطها .

وقال الفراء في قوله - عز وجل : والأرض بعد ذلك دحاها ، قال : بسطها ; قال شمر : وأنشدتني أعرابية :


الحمد لله الذي أطاقا بنى السماء فوقنا طباقا ثم دحا الأرض فما أضاقا
قال شمر : وفسرته فقالت دحا الأرض أوسعها ; وأنشد ابن بري لزيد بن عمرو بن نفيل :


دحاها ، فلما رآها استوت على الماء ، أرسى عليها الجبالا
ودحيت الشيء أدحاه دحيا : بسطته ، لغة في دحوته ; حكاها اللحياني .

وفي حديث علي وصلاته - رضي الله عنه : اللهم داحي المدحوات ، يعني باسط الأرضين وموسعها ، ويروى : داحي المدحيات .

والدحو : البسط . يقال : دحا يدحو ويدحى ، أي بسط ووسع .

والأدحي والإدحي والأدحية والإدحية والأدحوة : مبيض النعام في الرمل ، وزنه أفعول من ذلك ، لأن النعامة تدحوه برجلها ثم تبيض فيه وليس للنعام عش .

ومدحى النعام : موضع بيضها ، وأدحيها : موضعها الذي تفرخ فيه . قال ابن بري : ويقال للنعامة بنت أدحية ; قال : وأنشد أحمد بن عبيد عن الأصمعي :


باتا كرجلي بنت أدحية يرتجلان الرجل بالنعل
فأصبحا والرجل تعلوهما تزلع عن رجلها القحل
يعني رجلي نعامة ، لأنه إذا انكسرت إحداهما بطلت الأخرى ، ويرتجلان يطبخان ، يفتعلان من المرجل ، والنعل الأرض الصلبة ، وقوله : والرجل تعلوهما أي ماتا من البرد والجراد يعلوهما ، وتزلع تزلق ، والقحل اليابس لأنهما قد ماتا .

وفي الحديث : لا تكونوا كقيض بيض في أداحي ; هي جمع الأدحي ، وهو الموضع الذي تبيض فيه النعامة وتفرخ .

وفي حديث ابن عمر : فدحا السيل فيه بالبطحاء أي رمى وألقى .

والأدحي : من منازل القمر شبيه بأدحي النعام ، وقال في موضع آخر : الأدحي منزل بين النعائم وسعد الذابح يقال له البلدة .

وسئل ابن المسيب عن الدحو بالحجارة فقال : لا بأس به ، أي المراماة بها والمسابقة . ابن الأعرابي : يقال هو يدحو بالحجر بيده أي يرمي به ويدفعه ، قال : والداحي الذي يدحو الحجر بيده ، وقد دحا به يدحو دحوا ودحى يدحى دحيا .

ودحا المطر الحصى عن وجه الأرض دحوا : نزعه .

والمطر الداحي يدحى الحصى عن وجه الأرض : ينزعه ; قال أوس بن حجر :

got my point?!!!!

Thanks for that article . Its too big , I will look it in leisure time . and the other question , I answered it , but you don't want to understand it .

let's take a look at the logic behind those miracles

1-the Quran talks about what seems to be scientific facts
2-there's no way Muhammad would've known these facts back in his time (?)
3-these facts must've come from a superior entity with vast knowledge (?)
4-that entity claims himself to be God in his own books (like it has no reason to lie to us):sarcastic

Conclusion: the Quran is the word of God...

Can't you see any gaps in this logic my friend?!!!... precisely between points 3 and 4?!!!

Qur'an never promoted any scientific theory which can be proven wrong in future . Remember Qur'an was revealed 1400 years before and it contains all those scientific facts for all those 1400 years - still none of them proven to be false so far .:yes:

I'll take that with a large grain of salt my friend

And the writer of the link translated 'Hubuk; rightly as the it has to do something with knot , bound , tie etc.

Again, from Lisan al-arab

[ حبك ]

حبك : الحبك : الشد . واحتبك بإزاره : احتبى به وشده إلى يديه . والحبكة : أن ترخي من أثناء حجزتك من بين يديك لتحمل فيه الشيء ما كان ، وقيل : الحبكة الحجزة بعينها ، ومنها أخذ الاحتباك بالباء ، وهو شد الإزار . وحكي عن ابن المبارك أنه قال : جعلت سواك في حبكي أي في حجزتي . وتحبك : شد حجزته . وتحبكت المرأة بنطاقها : شدته في وسطها . وروي عن عائشة : أنها كانت تحتبك تحت درعها في الصلاة أي تشد الإزار وتحكمه ؛ قال أبو عبيد : قال الأصمعي الاحتباك الاحتباء ولكن الاحتباك شد الإزار وإحكامه أراد أنها كانت لا تصلي إلا مؤتزرة ؛ قال الأزهري : الذي رواه أبو عبيد عن الأصمعي في الاحتباك أنه الاحتباء غلط ، والصواب الاحتياك بالياء ؛ يقال : احتاك يحتاك احتياكا . وتحوك بثوبه إذا احتبى به ، قال : هكذا رواه ابن السكيت وغيره عن الأصمعي ، بالياء ، قال : والذي يسبق إلى وهمي أن أبا عبيد كتب هذا الحرف عن الأصمعي بالياء ، فزل في النقط وتوهمه باء ، قال : والعالم وإن كان غاية في الضبط والإتقان فإنه لا يكاد يخلو من خطئه بزلة ، والله أعلم . ولقد أنصف الأزهري ، رحمه الله ، فيما بسطه من هذه المقالة فإنا نجد كثيرا من أنفسنا ومن غيرنا أن القلم يجري فينقط ما لا يجب نقطه ، ويسبق إلى ضبط ما لا يختاره كاتبه ، ولكنه إذا قرأه بعد ذلك أو قرئ عليه تيقظ له ، وتفطن لما جرى به فاستدركه ، والله أعلم . والحبكة : الحبل يشد به على الوسط . والتحبيك : التوثيق . وقد حبكت العقدة أي وثقتها . والحباك : أن يجمع خشب كالحظيرة ثم يشد في وسطه بحبل يجمعه ؛ قال الأزهري : الحباك الحظيرة بقصبات تعرض ثم تشد تقول : حبكت الحظيرة بقصبات كما تحبك عروش الكرم بالحبال . والحبكة والحباك القدة التي تضم الرأس إلى الغراضيف من القتب والرحل ، وقد ذكرتا بالنون ؛ عن أبي عبيد ؛ قال ابن سيده : وأراه منه سهوا ، والجمع حبك وحبك ، فحبك جمع حبكة ، وحبك جمع حباك . وحبك الرمل : حروفه وأسناده واحدها حباك ، وكذلك حبك الماء ، والشعر الجعد المتكسر ؛ قال زهير بن أبي سلمى يصف ماء :


مكلل بعميم النبت تنسجه ريح خريق ، لضاحي مائه حبك


والحبيكة : كل طريقة من خصل الشعر أو البيضة ، والجمع حبيك وحبائك وحبك كسفينة وسفين وسفائن وسفن . الجوهري : الحبيكة الطريقة في الرمل ونحوه . الأزهري : وحبيك البيض للرأس طرائق حديده ؛ وأنشد :


والضاربون حبيك البيض إذ لحقوا لا ينكصون ، إذا ما استلحموا وحموا


قال : وكذلك طرائق الرمل فيما تحبكه الرياح إذا جرت عليه . وفي الحديث في صفة الدجال : " رأسه حبك " ، أي شعر رأسه متكسر من الجعودة مثل الماء الساكن أو الرمل إذا هبت عليهما الريح فيتجعدان ويصيران طرائق ؛ وفي رواية أخرى : " محبك الشعر " بمعناه . وحبك السماء : طرائقها . وفي التنزيل : والسماء ذات الحبك يعني طرائق النجوم واحدتها حبيكة والجمع كالجمع . وقال الفراء في قوله : والسماء ذات الحبك قال : الحبك تكسر كل شيء كالرملة إذا مرت عليها الريح الساكنة ، والماء القائم إذا مرت به الريح ، والدرع من الحديد لها حبك أيضا ، قال : والشعرة الجعدة تكسرها حبك ، قال : وواحد الحبك حباك وحبيكة ؛ وقال الجوهري : جمع الحبيكة حبائك ، وروي عن ابن عباس في قوله تعالى : والسماء ذات الحبك الخلق الحسن قال أبو إسحاق : وأهل اللغة يقولون : ذات الطرائق الحسنة ؛ وفي حديث عمرو بن مرة يمدح النبي ، صلى الله عليه وسلم : [ ص: 20 ]


لأصبحت خير الناس نفسا ووالدا رسول مليك الناس فوق الحبائك


الحبائك : الطرق ، واحدتها حبيكة ، يعني بها السماوات لأن فيها طرق النجوم . والمحبوك : ما أجيد عمله . والمحبوك : المحكم الخلق ، من حبكت الثوب إذا أحكمت نسجه . قال شمر : ودابة محبوكة إذا كانت مدمجة الخلق ، قال : وكل شيء أحكمته وأحسنت عمله ، فقد احتبكته . وفرس محبوك المتن والعجز : فيه استواء مع ارتفاع ؛ قال أبو داود يصف فرسا :


مرج الدهر ، فأعددت له مشرف الحارك ، محبوك الكتد


ويروى : مرج الدين . الأزهري عن الليث : إنه لمحبوك المتن والعجز إذا كان فيه استواء مع ارتفاع ؛ وأنشد :


على كل محبوك السراة ، كأنه عقاب هوت من مرقب وتعلت


قال وقال غيره : فرس محبوك الكفل أي مدمجه ؛ وأنشد بيت لبيد على هذه الصورة :


مشرف الحارك محبوك الكفل


قال : ويقال للدابة إذا كان شديد الخلق محبوك . والمحبوك : الشديد الخلق من الفرس وغيره . وجاد ما حبكه إذا أجاد نسجه . وحبك الثوب يحبكه ويحبكه حبكا : أجاد نسجه وحسن أثر الصنعة فيه . وثوب حبيك : محبوك ، وكذلك الوتر ؛ أنشد ابن الأعرابي لأبي العارم :

ه .

you need to see the big picture here my friend....

 

[Union]

and it remains the same case with you, you brought me some vague verses and said they are talking about some scientific theories while if you look up their interpretations (the original ones from the tafsir books) you'll find out they hold several different meanings (some of which are even contradictory)... and I brought you the example of the words D-H-W and H-B-K...

just for the sake of ending this, here's a whole article about the scientific miracles of the Hindu Vedas...
Hindu Vedas - SCIENTIFIC MIRACLES - David Icke's Official Forums

if you read them you'll find out that- unlike the Quran- the Vedas are speaking in a direct and clear language, no need to interpret the meaning of the Verses... you bring me one verse from the Quran like the ones in the Veda then we'll talk... BTW, I read your other thread on this forum trying to debunk the scientific errors of the Quran... you're trying to explain some short verses in several long paragraphs... the problem with the verses is that their simple direct meanings could seem to contradict science while you go a long way trying to give different interpretations to them... can't you see anything wrong with this?


If I am not mistaken , you quoted the verse 79.30 , where the root Dal Ha Waw used as perfect verb . As it is a verb , hence it can't be a noun like ostrich egg or its nest , rather the core meaning will be spreaded/expanded/stretched out/extended etc. It really indicates to continental drift theory of the earth .




From Lisan Al-arab



got my point?!!!!




let's take a look at the logic behind those miracles

1-the Quran talks about what seems to be scientific facts
2-there's no way Muhammad would've known these facts back in his time (?)
3-these facts must've come from a superior entity with vast knowledge (?)
4-that entity claims himself to be God in his own books (like it has no reason to lie to us):sarcastic

Conclusion: the Quran is the word of God...

Can't you see any gaps in this logic my friend?!!!... precisely between points 3 and 4?!!!



I'll take that with a large grain of salt my friend



Again, from Lisan al-arab



you need to see the big picture here my friend....

Hi egcroc . Let us try to avoid the red eyes of the moderators next time as debate is not allowed in DIR , though I regard the exchange with you a very fruitful discussion .

See when a teacher writes an equation 2+x=4 and leaves an option for the student to choose x=2,3&4 , then there won't be any doubt in the mind the teacher knows exactly what he is doing . Same applies to the verses of the Qur'an . These are so masterly constructed , it is just upon us to know the real meanings of it to solve the mystery . When science is fitting excatly with the verses of Qur'an - there you go , you solve the equation :yes:

Nevertheless it is the nature of all the languages in the world to have different connotations and meanings of a simple word . The Sanskrit used in Veda also has the same difficulties . A simple English word 'book' has also a quite vast ranges of implications and meanings[Ref. book: definition of book in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)].

As verse 79.30 and 51.7 are our matter of concern now - if the Qur'an could have been a work of heresy , these could have been far far away from science , not the way these were found to be a wonder . Not 1 and not 2 but 100s of verses of Qur'an bearing these scientific facts . It is undeniable , my friend .

Anyway , let us move to the next question . Thanks .

 

[egcroc]

Hi egcroc . Let us try to avoid the red eyes of the moderators next time as debate is not allowed in DIR , though I regard the exchange with you a very fruitful discussion .

See when a teacher writes an equation 2+x=4 and leaves an option for the student to choose x=2,3&4 , then there won't be any doubt in the mind the teacher knows exactly what he is doing . Same applies to the verses of the Qur'an . These are so masterly constructed , it is just upon us to know the real meanings of it to solve the mystery . When science is fitting excatly with the verses of Qur'an - there you go , you solve the equation :yes:

Nevertheless it is the nature of all the languages in the world to have different connotations and meanings of a simple word . The Sanskrit used in Veda also has the same difficulties . A simple English word 'book' has also a quite vast ranges of implications and meanings[Ref. book: definition of book in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)].

As verse 79.30 and 51.7 are our matter of concern now - if the Qur'an could have been a work of heresy , these could have been far far away from science , not the way these were found to be a wonder . Not 1 and not 2 but 100s of verses of Qur'an bearing these scientific facts . It is undeniable , my friend .

Anyway , let us move to the next question . Thanks .

alright my friend... the problem is that both of us look at this matter from different perspectives, I see it with skepticism while you see it with complete belief... but that's okay, I used to be in your shoes one day too..

as a quick question, how do you see the scientific miracles in other holy books, and if they are really the word of god why don't you believe in their religions, and if they are truly altered like what muslims say, why didn't God protect his holy word, according to the Quran and the Old Testament, the God of Abraham and Israel is wrathful, he ued to strike down miraculous punishments for much less serious offences, why didn't he preserve his word and stop the humans from messing with it?!!!

 

[Union]

alright my friend... the problem is that both of us look at this matter from different perspectives, I see it with skepticism while you see it with complete belief... but that's okay, I used to be in your shoes one day too..

as a quick question, how do you see the scientific miracles in other holy books, and if they are really the word of god why don't you believe in their religions, and if they are truly altered like what muslims say, why didn't God protect his holy word, according to the Quran and the Old Testament, the God of Abraham and Israel is wrathful, he ued to strike down miraculous punishments for much less serious offences, why didn't he preserve his word and stop the humans from messing with it?!!!

Thanks egcroc , I do really appreciate your understandable mentality . Qur'an confirms that there were so many scriptures before it , which were revealed to different Prophets and Messengers . Hence there is no wonder that if any other religious scriptures contain scientific facts- that must be form GOD . Remember that the core of religion offered by Almighty GOD is HIS Oneness . Now if Veda , Puran etc. contain scientific facts but still promote polytheism and establish Ram , Krishna , Indro,Kali , Sarashati , Shib , Madan etc. as deity-obviously those are not from GOD but edited by some polytheists .

Now we remain with Bible (OT and NT) - no doubt the source of them was GOD and those are full of miracles as well . But GOD let them to distort because HIS final Prophet yet to come with the final scripture . He arrived and the case is done . No longer distortion in HIS book , guidance for the rest of the time till the dooms day .

Here is a nice article from a sister Jacqueline on the topic 'Why did the GOD of Islam allow for the "original" Bible to get corrupted or lost?. You may find it appealing . Thanks

The above question has [THREE] parts, so let us see the answers
accordingly. To answer the part ["Muslims believe that the current Bible is
not all the true word of GOD, and only the Quran is"] Yes, Muslims believes
that current bible [OT &NT] is not the one, which God [Allaah] almighty
gave to Moses and Jesus [peace be upon them]. But it is also verified and confirmed by
Noble Qur'aan, which is the main source of Muslims' belief. If you read OT,
NT, and Noble Qur'aan, it will become obvious that all missing links in the
bible are found in Noble Qur'aan and it makes undeniable sense. That is why
once one explore the Noble Qur'aan with its entirety in almost all cases it
is inevitable for him/her to not say the Shahada.

To respond to the second part of question ["If so, then why did the GOD of
Islam allow for His Words to get corrupted in the Bible?"] "If so" is
hardly the case here, beside that one cannot blame the God [Allaah] The
Creator, all Knower, and all Seer of all heavens and earth for allowing His
words to be corrupted. Such blame ONLY represents a typical frivolous
product liability lawsuit mentality. That will not work in this UNIQUE
case, because the God [Allaah], has already replaced the abused and
tempered [by human] product with far SUPERIOR [product] the Final
Revelation *****THE NOBLE QUR'AAN***** Which by the way is another
testament of God's existence that He not only can save His word, but again
He can give mankind a chance to correct himself and follow his true word
[The Noble Qur'aan] to be saved. Because God [Allah] is the Most Beneficent
and Most Merciful.

To answer the last part of question ["or why did He allow for the original
copy of the Bible to be lost?"]. Again in this part we see the frivolous
product liability lawsuit mentality. Having said that God [Allaah] did not
allow [original] copy to be lost. It was the keepers of bible[OT & NT] who
tempered it and hide many facts that resulted in current bible not making
any sense. Which by the way is also confirmed by God [Allaah] in Noble
Qur'aan and I quote:

005.015
SHAKIR: O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you
making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over
much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah;

Followed by God [Allaah] emphasizing in Noble Qur'aan [next verse]:

005.016
SHAKIR: With it Allah guides him who will follow His pleasure into the ways
of safety and brings them out of utter darkness into light by His will and
guides them to the right path.

Bottom line is that as question itself indicates by use of [words]
"original copy" which is highly inappropriate in this case. However,
implication by virtue of question is absurd. Because FORENSIC AND EMPIRICAL
RESULTS proves that MASTER COPY [or SOURCE CODE] was never lost nor
tempered. It was and it has always been in possession of God [Allaah] the
Creator of all heaven and earth. It further proves the existence of ONE and
ONLY God [Allaah] the all Knower and all Seer who way ahead foretold to
Jews and Christians in OT and NT about the arrival of Prophet Muhammed
[saw] and commanded Jews and Christians to follow Prophet Muhammed [saw].

Noble Qur'aan 3:64! Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allâh, and that we associate no partners with Him, and
that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allâh[]. Then, if they
turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."

Noble Qur'aan 3:85! And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will
never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the
losers[].

Example: If Johnny writes a letter to Marry Joe and saves it. That Marry
Joe later edits and/or modify claiming to be original letter by Johnny.
That can be proven wrong by Johnny because he got the master copy. So to
make Marry Joe looks like a fool and a liar all Johnny has to do is to give
another copy of Jean Doe to show the people that she [Marry Joe] is lying.
It pretty bad, for Marry Joe, isn't it?

 

[egcroc]

so the omnipotent and omniscient God allows his word be altered not once but twice (and possibly a lot more) and left humanity to be delusioned for millenniae just for the purpose that his final true word can be revealed eventually, sorry if that's just too difficult for me to digest...

in my honest opinion, that epic chaos called Abrahamic religions are the greatest offence to the Creator, if he can really be offended, they reflect upon him the all the humanly emotions and flaws, he gets angry, jealous, sad, happy, loving, hating...etc.. and see how he evolved throughout the ages and books; from a warlord (OT YHWH) to a savior (NT Jesus Christ) and then a combo of both a warlord and a savior (Quran Allah), we eventually got 3 distinct religions fighting each other and all claim to own the supreme truth... is that really what HE had in mind?!!!! :sarcastic

that beautiful master creator who designed and put together a majestic universe from tiny vibrating strings of Energy

---->

do you really think he didn't have any better way to reveal himself to his creation other than the one that lead to this huge mess?!!

 

[Union]

so the omnipotent and omniscient God allows his word be altered not once but twice (and possibly a lot more) and left humanity to be delusioned for millenniae just for the purpose that his final true word can be revealed eventually, sorry if that's just too difficult for me to digest...

in my honest opinion, that epic chaos called Abrahamic religions are the greatest offence to the Creator, if he can really be offended, they reflect upon him the all the humanly emotions and flaws, he gets angry, jealous, sad, happy, loving, hating...etc.. and see how he evolved throughout the ages and books; from a warlord (OT YHWH) to a savior (NT Jesus Christ) and then a combo of both a warlord and a savior (Quran Allah), we eventually got 3 distinct religions fighting each other and all claim to own the supreme truth... is that really what HE had in mind?!!!! :sarcastic

that beautiful master creator who designed and put together a majestic universe from tiny vibrating strings of Energy

---->

do you really think he didn't have any better way to reveal himself to his creation other than the one that lead to this huge mess?!!

Its not GOD but human . GOD left us with our free choice , hence we suffer , we fight and we die because our wrong choices . It is not all about religion but everywhere , GOD gave us to choose the right thing as well as to avoid the bad . If we choose the bad , we suffer . All those wars , killing of thousands , people are dying of hunger , millions are homeless etc. and etc. Then you may question why GOD left us with such mess ? Can't HE do something , within a second ?? Yes , HE is able to do but HE left us with our free choice .

 

[egcroc]

Its not GOD but human . GOD left us with our free choice , hence we suffer , we fight and we die because our wrong choices . It is not all about religion but everywhere , GOD gave us to choose the right thing as well as to avoid the bad . If we choose the bad , we suffer . All those wars , killing of thousands , people are dying of hunger , millions are homeless etc. and etc. Then you may question why GOD left us with such mess ? Can't HE do something , within a second ?? Yes , HE is able to do but HE left us with our free choice .

so it's the humans' fault after all eh?!! as if religion doesn't have a dark side...

this brings up the next question, how do you see the "dark side" of the Quran, particularly the verses of war to impose religion by force... the verse that speaks about child wives, the numerous verses about female slaves "malekat al-yamin", and the verses that give Muhammad special privileges in money and women?!!!

 

[Union]

so it's the humans' fault after all eh?!! as if religion doesn't have a dark side...

this brings up the next question, how do you see the "dark side" of the Quran, particularly the verses of war to impose religion by force... the verse that speaks about child wives, the numerous verses about female slaves "malekat al-yamin", and the verses that give Muhammad special privileges in money and women?!!!

Good day egcroc . There is nothing like that in Qur'an

 

[egcroc]

Good day egcroc . There is nothing like that in Qur'an

Wow, is that really so... it seems like I've been reading a different Quran than yours my entire life

 

[FearGod]

Wow, is that really so... it seems like I've been reading a different Quran than yours my entire life

Why not presenting verse by verse.

Let us discuss one by one and do not depend on scholars but on your mind.