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Questions on the big bang expanding universe.

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
I would like to learn what others believe the big bang universe is expanding into? I only want to talk with those who are prepared to explain their own understanding directly, not second parties, and I don't intend to read articles by others that may be posted or linked to on this thread. .Thank you for your understanding.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I would like to learn what others believe the big bang universe is expanding into? I only want to talk with those who are prepared to explain their own understanding directly, not second parties, and I don't intend to read articles by others that may be posted or linked to on this thread. .Thank you for your understanding.

Before I answer, imagine the Earth with latitude and longitude lines. Now, consider the flow of time to be north on that sphere, so events are at the 'same time' if they are the same longitude.

In this toy model, the south pole acts like the singularity at the Big Bang. Then, as we go north, 'space', consisting of a latitude line, expands until we get to the equator. Then, as we go further north, the latitude lines again contract until we get to a 'Big Crunch' at the north pole.

Now, as I said, this is a toy model, but it is very similar to the simplest actual models of the Big Bang.

Now, imagine you are on a longitude line south of the equator and you ask 'in which direction are the longitude lines expanding?'. The only answer is 'in the direction of increasing latitude', in other words, 'north'.

In the Big Bang model, the universe *throughout both space and time* has a geometry. As we go to later times, the spatial part of that geometry gets larger. This is analogous to how latitude lines get larger as we move away from the south pole going north. Different 'time cross sections' correspond to 'space at those times' and the later cross sections are larger than the earlier ones.

So, the best answer to your question of 'what is the universe expanding into?' is, literally, 'the future'.

One of the biggest difficulties people have with modern physics, especially general relativity (which is relevant for the Big Bang), is that space itself can be curved. The next difficulty is the realization that both space and time join together into a geometry encompassing both of them. To say that the universe is expanding simply means that later 'cross sections' of this geometry are larger than earlier ones.

NB: I am a mathematician and have studied General Relativity and the Big Bang models quite a bit.
 
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PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
My theory is that what's expanding is just the empty space. I haven't checked up on this idea. But to get to the meat of my ideas.....

The universe is "God" or a manifestation of him. Since it's expanding, it tells me creation isn't complete.

So what are we seeing? We're seeing the creation of the universe!
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
I would like to learn what others believe the big bang universe is expanding into? I only want to talk with those who are prepared to explain their own understanding directly, not second parties, and I don't intend to read articles by others that may be posted or linked to on this thread. .Thank you for your understanding.
Its not going to expand into anything, it will keep expanding until there is no stars left on the skies and eventually they will all burn out, and everything will just be darkness. but that will most likely not happen before after the sun have already consumed the Earth I think. So my guess is that the Universe will just keep expanding forever until there is nothing left.
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
perhaps it only appears to be expanding into the unknown..... maybe we just see better as time goes on, or differently....
looking at how the general consensus has changed over time as to definitions accepted as defining the "universe" [and cosmology in general]
it seems that based on the past, we should expect that whatever we think right now will be overturned and replaced with a new model in some time, but not without a fight from those who are stuck in the "official/accepted" model ....this seems to be how things go in any case.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Before I answer, imagine the Earth with latitude and longitude lines. Now, consider the flow of time to be north on that sphere, so events are at the 'same time' if they are the same longitude.

In this toy model, the south pole acts like the singularity at the Big Bang. Then, as we go north, 'space', consisting of a latitude line, expands until we get to the equator. Then, as we go further north, the latitude lines again contract until we get to a 'Big Crunch' at the north pole.

Now, as I said, this is a toy model, but it is very similar to the simplest actual models of the Big Bang.

Now, imagine you are on a longitude line south of the equator and you ask 'in which direction are the longitude lines expanding?'. The only answer is 'in the direction of increasing latitude', in other words, 'north'.

In the Big Bang model, the universe *throughout both space and time* has a geometry. As we go to later times, the spatial part of that geometry gets larger. This is analogous to how latitude lines get larger as we move away from the south pole going north. Different 'time cross sections' correspond to 'space at those times' and the later cross sections are larger than the earlier ones.

So, the best answer to your question of 'what is the universe expanding into?' is, literally, 'the future'.

One of the biggest difficulties people have with modern physics, especially general relativity (which is relevant for the Big Bang), is that space itself can be curved. The next difficulty is the realization that both space and time join together into a geometry encompassing both of them. To say that the universe is expanding simply means that later 'cross sections' of this geometry are larger than earlier ones.

NB: I am a mathematician and have studied General Relativity and the Big Bang models quite a bit.
Thank you Polymath257. Ok, then would I be correct to say wrt your understanding that space is being created during the expanding phase, out of nothing. Does your model imply there is an expanding volume to this universe at the present time.
 

Salty Booger

Royal Crown Cola (RC)
I would like to learn what others believe the big bang universe is expanding into? I only want to talk with those who are prepared to explain their own understanding directly, not second parties, and I don't intend to read articles by others that may be posted or linked to on this thread. .Thank you for your understanding.
My understanding is that the laws of physics and time exist only within the universe, or so hypothesized. There are many theories such as multiverses and such, but it really is anybody's guess. My personal view is that the Universe and reality exist within the limits of my own perception.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
My theory is that what's expanding is just the empty space. I haven't checked up on this idea. But to get to the meat of my ideas.....

The universe is "God" or a manifestation of him. Since it's expanding, it tells me creation isn't complete.

So what are we seeing? We're seeing the creation of the universe!
So what do you mean by 'empty' space, and what is space expanding into?
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Its not going to expand into anything, it will keep expanding until there is no stars left on the skies and eventually they will all burn out, and everything will just be darkness. but that will most likely not happen before after the sun have already consumed the Earth I think. So my guess is that the Universe will just keep expanding forever until there is nothing left.
I don't understand how it is not expanding into anything? Is there a leading edge to the expanding universe containing the stars? Do you consider infinite space a vacuum?
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
I meant that I see the black canvas increasing outward but that I have the theory that most of the outer space isn't filled with stuff. Just my notion.
Thank you KAT-KAT. So do you consider this outer space a vacuum, ie., space containing nothing?
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
Thank you KAT-KAT. So do you consider this outer space a vacuum, ie., space containing nothing?

Yep.

And I'm not saying it'll never be filled. I'm just saying it goes with my idea that creation is an ever expanding work in progress. So I would think the newer, outside areas look more incomplete.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
My understanding is that the laws of physics and time exist only within the universe, or so hypothesized. There are many theories such as multiverses and such, but it really is anybody's guess. My personal view is that the Universe and reality exist within the limits of my own perception.
Thank you Salty Booger, I will need to ponder that bit regarding "limits of one's own perception." a little further.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Yep.

And I'm not saying it'll never be filled. I'm just saying it goes with my idea that creation is an ever expanding work in progress. So I would think the newer, outside areas look more incomplete.
Yes, I understand what you are saying. That is a general view many people have..
 

Salty Booger

Royal Crown Cola (RC)
Thank you Salty Booger, I will need to ponder that bit regarding "limits of one's own perception." a little further.
You might consult a telescope, radio and microwave astronomy. They will expand your Universe considerably. Personally, I don't believe we will ever find the edge of the Universe, just more Universe.
Hubble
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
perhaps it only appears to be expanding into the unknown..... maybe we just see better as time goes on, or differently....
looking at how the general consensus has changed over time as to definitions accepted as defining the "universe" [and cosmology in general]
it seems that based on the past, we should expect that whatever we think right now will be overturned and replaced with a new model in some time, but not without a fight from those who are stuck in the "official/accepted" model ....this seems to be how things go in any case.
Thank you MNoBody. Yes, I am aware that some people believe the apparent red shift denoting expansion of the universe may be caused by some yet unknown cause other than a doppler effect, and thus the universe is not expanding. I've often wondered this myself.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
You might consult a telescope, radio and microwave astronomy. They will expand your Universe considerably. Personally, I don't believe we will ever find the edge of the Universe, just more Universe.
Hubble
Oh I see what you meant, I initially thought you were referring to the human mind's limited perception state versus its potential for greater awareness of absolute reality....enlightenment. So you think it possible the universe may be infinite, I agree that is a possibility.
 

Salty Booger

Royal Crown Cola (RC)
Oh I see what you meant, I initially thought you were referring to the human mind's limited perception state versus its potential for greater awareness of absolute reality....enlightenment. So you think it possible the universe may be infinite, I agree that is a possibility.
Well, it does seem that the harder we look, the more we find. The mind is a knife edge with which we slice reality into ever finer bits. If you look at what we have discovered within the atom using atom smashers, more and more mysteries pop into existence. The same is true regarding our outward gaze into the Universe. The only limits seem to be our intellect and our tools that we use to explore our surroundings. It might require the birth of a big brain such as Einstein to move past whatever limitations standing in our path now.

I love science, always have--simply because it tickles my imagination. I like your thread because it is exactly that kind of question I have asked myself. If there is nothingness beyond the limits of the Universe, then what is "nothingness"? All of this brings more questions to mind. Sometimes it is just pleasant to wonder about those questions and possible answers.:)
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Well, it does seem that the harder we look, the more we find. The mind is a knife edge with which we slice reality into ever finer bits. If you look at what we have discovered within the atom using atom smashers, more and more mysteries pop into existence. The same is true regarding our outward gaze into the Universe. The only limits seem to be our intellect and our tools that we use to explore our surroundings. It might require the birth of a big brain such as Einstein to move past whatever limitations standing in our path now.

I love science, always have--simply because it tickles my imagination. I like your thread because it is exactly that kind of question I have asked myself. If there is nothingness beyond the limits of the Universe, then what is "nothingness"? All of this brings more questions to mind. Sometimes it is just pleasant to wonder about those questions and possible answers.:)
I agree with you.

For me, there is something about the expanding universe theory that causes me pause. I am hoping to learn more when someone explains that space itself is expanding, not into empty space, but space itself is being created from nothing. At least that is what I understand is the predominate position of science today. We shall see.
 
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