Questions for Muslims

[firedragon]

This depends on whether or not you accept that the accepted chapter separation always existed or were a later addition.

Then, if its 21st chapter, then thats 50% of the Quran, again without the french connection.

The book is not particularly persuasive overall (well the chapters I've read), as it tends to make it's own case and fails to address much of the contradictory evidence. Luxenberg suffers from the problem that he tries to stretch a hypothesis far beyond its breaking point. The idea that knowledge of Syriac can aid understanding of certain passages seems to yield some results. The idea that the whole text is simply a translation of much older sources is fanciful and requires him to speculate wildly and play fast and loose with the text and his methodology.

Luxenberg only contributed one chapter though, there are a few interesting things in some of the other chapters, but overall the book is far too revisionist given its failure to address and refute existing scholarship.

True.

 

[Augustus]

I don't really care about Islam or any other religion. Most are just copy cats of what came before, they are all man made, their books were written by human hands, and the people that wrote/founded them had very little scientific or medical knowledge.

We were discussing [secular, academic] history though, not theology. It's just like the history of the Romans, or WW2. Your attitude to religion isn't particularly relevant.

Personally, I think understanding history is important, fair enough if you don't.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

Not when you initially posted yesterday. Maybe 8 minutes ago when you edited the post but either way - doesn't matter. Thanks for the wonderful contribution!

Nope, I only edited the section where I quoted in Rival. I had already written in the emboldened part in his quote. Maybe try reading next time genius.

 

[Rival]

Nope, I only edited the section where I quoted in Rival. I had already written in the emboldened part in his quote. Maybe try reading next time genius.

His?

 

[Augustus]

His?

Try writing in pink with little hearts above the i's and sign off every post with a

 

[Rival]

Try writing in pink with little hearts above the i's and sign off every post with a

Lol I might just have to.

 

[Raahim]

His?

RF Revelations: @Rival is female *epic music with drums*

 

[Faronator]

Nope, I only edited the section where I quoted in Rival. I had already written in the emboldened part in his quote. Maybe try reading next time genius.

Learn to quote properly. While you are at it, learn proper sentence structure.

Genius...

*Will wait for you to edit this post as well*

 

[Neo Deist]

Human actions have absolutely NOTHING to do with the principles prescribed by religion. That's a logical fallacy at that.

May I direct your attention to a video clip featuring the late Christopher Hitchens:

***ALERT*** do not click if you are overly sensitive.

 

[Raahim]

Learn to quote properly. While you are at it, learn proper sentence structure.

Genius...

*Will wait for you to edit this post as well*

What do you mean he/she needs to learn to quote properly?

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

No he isn't. I've conceded that he is in the Qur'an but he is 100% not in the Bible. And if he was, how come no-one for over 600 years realised it? And please don't pull out the Song of Solomon crap, I feel sorry for Muslims when they do that.

So you have conceded you lied about the name Muhammad not being in the Quran? Considering a simple google search would have gotten you the answer.

So, here is a video explaining the situation from the Bible:

Now, you said you don't want a mention of the Song of Solomon, my question is, why not? The very word used in Muhammad here, why do you care to ignore that?

Plus, if you want to read descriptions of the Prophet Muhammad, he is described in several places, most famously in Isiah:

“And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.”

We all know Muhammad PBUH is known widely as the "unlettered" Prophet. One who did not read or write.

It is up to you if you wish to exclude the use of the name Muhammad from the Bible but you can not excuse it from reality.

 

[Raahim]

May I direct your attention to a video clip featuring the late Christopher Hitchens:

***ALERT*** do not click if you are overly sensitive.

Ignorance at it's finest.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

@Rival

Since you like to ignore things, here it is again:

I have quite a few.

a) If Islam is God's perfected religion and God sent Jesus as a mere messenger, why is Christianity the world's dominant religion and has been nearly since its inception? Why would Allah do that?

Who says Jesus is Christian? Jesus preached the worship and submission of One God, that is the basis of Islam. Therefore, by that definition, he was in fact a Muslim. At no stage does he call himself a Christian, nor does he openly state he should be worshiped. Plus, it is estimated that within a few decades, Islam will overtake Christianity in sheer numbers but in terms of practice, Islam is already the world's largest religion.

b) How is the Qur'an perfect and universal if it can only be studied and properly understood in Arabic? Also, why does the oldest copy not match up to any known copy we have today?

No one said that it can't be studied in any other language but to fully understand anything in life, you have to get to the source, which is Arabic. That does not mean one can not be a Muslims or a very knowledgeable Muslim, without knowing Arabic. Anyway, most Muslims on the planet know how to, at the very least, read Arabic.

Oh and the second statement is purely a lie, unless you are asking out of confusion. One of the earlier versions of the Quran found in Birmingham university, dated to within 30 years of the life of Prophet Muhammad PBUH reads word for word the same as now. The vowel sounds are the only thing that are missing.

c) Why do all the earliest Mosques face Petra? And why does Petra fit the descriptions given in the Qur'an, not Mecca?

Petra? If these early mosques, as you call them, face any direction it would be modern day Jerusalem but the direction of the building is irrelevant, as the Qiblah was changed to Makkah and all prayer matts and directions in mosques would be facing there, not Jerusalem.

d) Provide me some non-Islamic evidence that Mecca existed in the time of Muhammad.
"Surprising as it may seem, not one map before 900 AD even mentions Mecca. This is 300 years after Muhammad’s death" http://www.academia.edu/1776803/The_Mecca_Question

You should read up on more history.

e) Why couldn't Allah preserve the original message and where were the supposed 24,000 messengers that were sent to everywhere? Evidence?

Allah states, time and time again, that every messenger before Muhammad PBUH was for a particular time, place and people. Their message was never supposed to last.

f) Why isn't the word 'Muslim' or 'Muhammad' used during the Arabian conquests? Why do these words only appear years after Muhammad?

Huh?

Thanks.

Your questions answered, what are your counter arguments if you have any?

If you don't we can move on to the next topic.

 

[Rival]

@Rival

Since you like to ignore things, here it is again:

I have quite a few.

a) If Islam is God's perfected religion and God sent Jesus as a mere messenger, why is Christianity the world's dominant religion and has been nearly since its inception? Why would Allah do that?

Who says Jesus is Christian? Jesus preached the worship and submission of One God, that is the basis of Islam. Therefore, by that definition, he was in fact a Muslim. At no stage does he call himself a Christian, nor does he openly state he should be worshiped. Plus, it is estimated that within a few decades, Islam will overtake Christianity in sheer numbers but in terms of practice, Islam is already the world's largest religion.

b) How is the Qur'an perfect and universal if it can only be studied and properly understood in Arabic? Also, why does the oldest copy not match up to any known copy we have today?

No one said that it can't be studied in any other language but to fully understand anything in life, you have to get to the source, which is Arabic. That does not mean one can not be a Muslims or a very knowledgeable Muslim, without knowing Arabic. Anyway, most Muslims on the planet know how to, at the very least, read Arabic.

Oh and the second statement is purely a lie, unless you are asking out of confusion. One of the earlier versions of the Quran found in Birmingham university, dated to within 30 years of the life of Prophet Muhammad PBUH reads word for word the same as now. The vowel sounds are the only thing that are missing.

c) Why do all the earliest Mosques face Petra? And why does Petra fit the descriptions given in the Qur'an, not Mecca?

Petra? If these early mosques, as you call them, face any direction it would be modern day Jerusalem but the direction of the building is irrelevant, as the Qiblah was changed to Makkah and all prayer matts and directions in mosques would be facing there, not Jerusalem.

d) Provide me some non-Islamic evidence that Mecca existed in the time of Muhammad.
"Surprising as it may seem, not one map before 900 AD even mentions Mecca. This is 300 years after Muhammad’s death" http://www.academia.edu/1776803/The_Mecca_Question

You should read up on more history.

e) Why couldn't Allah preserve the original message and where were the supposed 24,000 messengers that were sent to everywhere? Evidence?

Allah states, time and time again, that every messenger before Muhammad PBUH was for a particular time, place and people. Their message was never supposed to last.

f) Why isn't the word 'Muslim' or 'Muhammad' used during the Arabian conquests? Why do these words only appear years after Muhammad?

Huh?

Thanks.

Your questions answered, what are your counter arguments if you have any?

If you don't we can move on to the next topic.

I didn't ignore it. I was and currently am on a phone which makes it hard to respond adequately. I'll do it when I'm on a pc.

 

[Raahim]

I didn't ignore it. I was and currently am on a phone which makes it hard to respond adequately. I'll do it when I'm on a pc.

Smooth excuse for ignoring I gotta say.
(Kidding, kidding!)

 

[Faronator]

@Rival

Since you like to ignore things, here it is again:

I have quite a few.

a) If Islam is God's perfected religion and God sent Jesus as a mere messenger, why is Christianity the world's dominant religion and has been nearly since its inception? Why would Allah do that?

Who says Jesus is Christian? Jesus preached the worship and submission of One God, that is the basis of Islam. Therefore, by that definition, he was in fact a Muslim. At no stage does he call himself a Christian, nor does he openly state he should be worshiped. Plus, it is estimated that within a few decades, Islam will overtake Christianity in sheer numbers but in terms of practice, Islam is already the world's largest religion.

b) How is the Qur'an perfect and universal if it can only be studied and properly understood in Arabic? Also, why does the oldest copy not match up to any known copy we have today?

No one said that it can't be studied in any other language but to fully understand anything in life, you have to get to the source, which is Arabic. That does not mean one can not be a Muslims or a very knowledgeable Muslim, without knowing Arabic. Anyway, most Muslims on the planet know how to, at the very least, read Arabic.

Oh and the second statement is purely a lie, unless you are asking out of confusion. One of the earlier versions of the Quran found in Birmingham university, dated to within 30 years of the life of Prophet Muhammad PBUH reads word for word the same as now. The vowel sounds are the only thing that are missing.

c) Why do all the earliest Mosques face Petra? And why does Petra fit the descriptions given in the Qur'an, not Mecca?

Petra? If these early mosques, as you call them, face any direction it would be modern day Jerusalem but the direction of the building is irrelevant, as the Qiblah was changed to Makkah and all prayer matts and directions in mosques would be facing there, not Jerusalem.

d) Provide me some non-Islamic evidence that Mecca existed in the time of Muhammad.
"Surprising as it may seem, not one map before 900 AD even mentions Mecca. This is 300 years after Muhammad’s death" http://www.academia.edu/1776803/The_Mecca_Question

You should read up on more history.

e) Why couldn't Allah preserve the original message and where were the supposed 24,000 messengers that were sent to everywhere? Evidence?

Allah states, time and time again, that every messenger before Muhammad PBUH was for a particular time, place and people. Their message was never supposed to last.

f) Why isn't the word 'Muslim' or 'Muhammad' used during the Arabian conquests? Why do these words only appear years after Muhammad?

Huh?

Thanks.

Your questions answered, what are your counter arguments if you have any?

If you don't we can move on to the next topic.

Jesus never said he was Muslim either, did he?

 

[Rival]

Also @Tomorrows_Child, I have already said.

1.provide me with non Islamic evidence that Jesus was a Muslim.

2. I said Petra not Jerusalem and I meant Petra. Some early Mosques face Petra and Petra fits perfectly the quranic descriptions, why?

3. I have already conceded I was wrong about Mo in the Quran.

4. Why were their messages not supposed to last? What kind of all powerful god gives messages knowing they will be messed up?

 

[OurCreed]

May I direct your attention to a video clip featuring the late Christopher Hitchens:

***ALERT*** do not click if you are overly sensitive.

So you're sending me a video in reply to a comment which was not even directed to you from the start? I think the overly sensitive one here is uhm...you.

 

[Augustus]

f) Why isn't the word 'Muslim' or 'Muhammad' used during the Arabian conquests? Why do these words only appear years after Muhammad?

Huh?

Early religious inscriptions mentioned God, but not Muhammed and used the term mu'minun rather than Muslim.

(There are early non-Islamic sources that mention Muhammed by name though, but they are not aware that the Arabs are 'Muslim' they use Saracen, Hagarene, etc. for the best part of a century after being conquered by 'Muslims')

*copy/pasted from an earlier post*


Purely in terms of physical evidence, they called themselves believers (mu'minun). For example:

(It's Greek because Arabic wasn't adopted as the official language until Abd al-Malik's era)

1. In the days of the servant of God Muʿāwiya (abdalla Maavia), the commander
2. of the faithful (amēra almoumenēn) the hot baths of the
3. people there were saved and rebuilt
4. by ʿAbd Allāh son of Abū Hāshim (Abouasemou), the
5. governor, on the fifth of the month of December,
6. on the second day (of the week), in the 6th year of the indiction,
7. in the year 726 of the colony, according to the Arabs (kata Arabas) the 42nd year,
8. for the healing of the sick, under the care of Ioannes,
9. the official of Gadara.

Interestingly, the person who made this inscription had time to carve a cross at the very beginning, but didn't see fit to carve Muhammed's name.

"But outside the Qurʾān, the word Islam, as a name of the religion, appears for the first time on the tombstone of a woman named ʿAbbāsa dated 71AH/ 691 CE.3 There, the Believers are called ahl al-islām. The first definitely datable evidence of the usage of the word muslimūn, in the sense of adherents of Islam, is from 123 Ah / 741 Ce,4 although it was prob- ably used widely even before that.5 Thus, the change from a “community of Believers to [a] community of Muslims”6 was a rather slow one, at least appellation- wise. Islam seems to have been a distinct religion from early on, but it took some decades, if not more, for its characteristics to become shaped."
(Muhājirūn as a Name for the First/ Seventh Century Muslims - Illka Lindstedt)

 

[OurCreed]

Also @Tomorrows_Child, I have already said.

1.provide me with non Islamic evidence that Jesus was a Muslim.

2. I said Petra not Jerusalem and I meant Petra. Some early Mosques face Petra and Petra fits perfectly the quranic descriptions, why?

3. I have already conceded I was wrong about Mo in the Quran.

4. Why were their messages not supposed to last? What kind of all powerful god gives messages knowing they will be messed up?

You didn't reply to my comment on the 3rd page.