Questions for Jews re: Kings and Priests

[TrueBeliever37]

You seem to ignore that it doesn't say "like Malki-tzedek". If you are starting with a bad translation, you will draw erroneous conclusions.

Ok make some kind of commitment on what you think it does say. You know it means he would be a "cohen" (priest) similar to Malki-tzedek.

 

[rosends]

Because Abraham wasn't the subject. The Messiah to come was the subject. And he was going to be both King and Priest.

Except he is, unless you subscribe to the understanding that the subject is king David. Your assertion that this refers to a completely extra-biblical character is self-serving, unsubstantiated and unconvincing.

 

[rosends]

I'm not ignoring your examples. But you haven't proven it is just a chair.

The word MEANS chair. It is used biblically AS chair. I provided proof that it means chair. Your job is to prove that it ISN'T chair.

Because just as you say the King's chair can definitely be called a throne. And you know in the first instance in this verse it is talking about a King. So the chair can be called a throne. And you know the second part of the verse can definitely be translated as "and He shall be priest upon his chair/throne". Zechariah 6:13 (You may not like it, but it could accurately be translated that way. Just admit it.)

Sure, and "throne" doesn't (in English) necessarily mean "the seat of a king". Just admit it. The seat is a chair and it could be the chair of a religious leader as well and still be called a throne.

The counsel of peace shall be between them both doesn't necessarily mean between two individuals. It can mean between both offices.

So the clear statement listing a man separate from the named priest isn't two people? Sure...sure...whatever you say. The text might be explicit but that's not good enough for you because you want to find something that isn't there.

 

[rosends]

Ok make some kind of commitment on what you think it does say. You know it means he would be a "cohen" (priest) similar to Malki-tzedek.

I can present exactly what it says

נִשְׁבַּ֤ע יְהֹוָ֨ה ׀ וְלֹ֥א יִנָּחֵ֗ם אַתָּֽה־כֹהֵ֥ן לְעוֹלָ֑ם עַל־דִּ֝בְרָתִ֗י מַלְכִּי־צֶֽדֶק

why don't you go through that and explain, word by word, how you get to the translation you keep relying on. Show me "Like" or "similar" in there. Show me the future tense. They aren't there and your blind insistence doesn't change that.

Here is one way I can translate it:

God swears, and he won't go back on his statement, "you are a chief forever, on the basis that I spoke of regarding Malki-tzedek."

Of course, I could just quote some translations from others
"The LORD has sworn and will not relent,
“You are a priest forever, a rightful king by My decree.”

There is also this one
"The Lord swore and will not repent; you are a priest forever because of the speech of Malchizedek."

But you don't like these because they don't conform to the inventions you need in terms of the words.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I said that the word refers to many things including a Levitical priesthood. I did not say that in this verse that's what it necessarily means. If you wish to represent my position, please do so accurately.

Well, not exactly because it really isn't about being "like" him. But if you want to understand it that way, then you can go back to the explanation of the Metzudat David who explains it as "you are a priest in the same way that Malki-Tzedek was a priest". And since Malki-tzedek was only a priest in a loose and non-religious sense, the subject could only be considered a priest like that -- not one able to discharge any of the office of an actual Levitical priest. If you prefer that, then go ahead.

I am trying so hard to get you to commit and explain you position. Please do.

What? - Genesis 14:18 says Malki-tzedek was priest to God Most High - How in the world is that only a priest in a loose and non-religious sense?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

The word MEANS chair. It is used biblically AS chair. I provided proof that it means chair. Your job is to prove that it ISN'T chair.

You're playing word games. You tell me - what is it since the King is sitting on it? Zechariah 6:13 You know it is a throne in this case.

 

[rosends]

I am trying so hard to get you to commit and explain you position. Please do.

What? - Genesis 14:18 says Malki-tzedek was priest to God Most High - How in the world is that only a priest in a loose and non-religious sense?

Because it was not a priesthood within a system of service and rules that governed what being a "priest" was. Jethro was also listed as a "cohen" as were David's children. You think that in all those cases, "priest" means a religious functionary who can serve as a priest in performing the priestly obligations within the religion? Ha!

 

[rosends]

You're playing word games. You tell me - what is it since the King is sitting on it? Zechariah 6:13 You know it is a throne in this case.

No, I am pointing out word meanings. That isn't a game. A king sits on a chair. A modern English word for the chair a king sits on (sometimes...when he visits my house and sits on the sofa it doesn't magically become anything else) is 'throne." That word, though, has other meanings.

So if a king sits on it, it can be called a throne. When I sit on it, not so much, unless it is a toilet, in which case it is a throne.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

It says to make crowns (plural) and place it (singular) on the head of the priest, and then, later to put both aside as a memorial to the people who donated the materials to make the crowns.

It doesn't have "it" in the text.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

No, I am pointing out word meanings. That isn't a game. A king sits on a chair. A modern English word for the chair a king sits on (sometimes...when he visits my house and sits on the sofa it doesn't magically become anything else) is 'throne." That word, though, has other meanings.

So if a king sits on it, it can be called a throne. When I sit on it, not so much, unless it is a toilet, in which case it is a throne.

Right and this King was going to sit and rule on his chair. So I think it can easily be recognized to be his throne.

 

[rosends]

It doesn't have "it" in the text.

Hebrew, as a gendered language, doesn't have a word for "it". Verbs in Hebrew indicate gender and number. In this text, the person doing the placing is masculine and the number of the thing being placed is singular. Since the gender of the object isn't specified, I used the non-gendered pronoun. In fact, the word means "and you (masculine) placed" with the object already indicated in the verse referred to in the singular. The vav that introduces it changes the past tense to a future (as the crowns had not yet been made, the command to make and then place must perforce be in the future).

 

[rosends]

Right and this King was going to sit and rule on his chair. So I think it can easily be recognized to be his throne.

Great. The king is on the thing we call a throne because he's the king. Since the priest is not a king, his seat isn't a throne unless you recognzie the word "throne" as referring to a chair for a religious leader who isn't a king also.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Because it was not a priesthood within a system of service and rules that governed what being a "priest" was. Jethro was also listed as a "cohen" as were David's children. You think that in all those cases, "priest" means a religious functionary who can serve as a priest in performing the priestly obligations within the religion? Ha!

I'm not talking about those cases. I am talking about Zechariah 6:13-14 and Psalms 110:1-4 Where someone would be a priest forever after the order of Melchidzedeq. The same Melchidzedeq referred to in Genesis 14:18, who is said to be priest of God Most High. So are you going to claim he didn't perform religious duties?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Great. The king is on the thing we call a throne because he's the king. Since the priest is not a king, his seat isn't a throne unless you recognzie the word "throne" as referring to a chair for a religious leader who isn't a king also.

No - Since he is both King and Priest like Melchidzedeq was. He is sitting on the throne as King and Priest.

 

[rosends]

I'm not talking about those cases. I am talking about Zechariah 6:13-14 and Psalms 110:1-4 Where someone would be a priest forever after the order of Melchidzedeq.

No, neither verse says that. You have again started with your conclusion.

The same Melchidzedeq referred to in Genesis 14:18, who is said to be priest of God Most High. So are you going to claim he didn't perform religious duties?

Yup, unless you can show me that there actually were any priestly religious duties. The text certainly doesn't list any.

 

[rosends]

No - Since he is both King and Priest like Melchidzedeq was. He is sitting on the throne as King and Priest.

No, since the text details 2 people you are making faulty claim and drawing an unsubstantiated conclusion. You want there to be one so you insist there is one. The text says two.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I can present exactly what it says

נִשְׁבַּ֤ע יְהֹוָ֨ה ׀ וְלֹ֥א יִנָּחֵ֗ם אַתָּֽה־כֹהֵ֥ן לְעוֹלָ֑ם עַל־דִּ֝בְרָתִ֗י מַלְכִּי־צֶֽדֶק

why don't you go through that and explain, word by word, how you get to the translation you keep relying on. Show me "Like" or "similar" in there. Show me the future tense. They aren't there and your blind insistence doesn't change that.

Here is one way I can translate it:

God swears, and he won't go back on his statement, "you are a chief forever, on the basis that I spoke of regarding Malki-tzedek."

Of course, I could just quote some translations from others
"The LORD has sworn and will not relent,
“You are a priest forever, a rightful king by My decree.”

There is also this one
"The Lord swore and will not repent; you are a priest forever because of the speech of Malchizedek."

But you don't like these because they don't conform to the inventions you need in terms of the words.

Actually I do like the one I underlined and added bold to in your post above. YHWH is telling the future Messiah with an oath, that he will be King and priest forever.

 

[rosends]

Actually I do like the one I underlined and added bold to in your post above. YHWH is telling the future Messiah, he will be King and priest forever.

Strange, that speaks in present tense and doesn't mention any future messiah. But you just keep finding whatever it is you need to find.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Strange, that speaks in present tense and doesn't mention any future messiah. But you just keep finding whatever it is you need to find.

Strange it mentions him being King and Priest also. I have no problem with it being said in a present tense since it is a prophecy. To God it is a done deal. God is saying with an oath, You are King and priest forever.

In your scenario, you have it being Abraham, who had been dead over 800 years, and to my knowledge was never king or priest.

 

[rosends]

Strange it mentions him being King and Priest also. I have no problem with it being said in a present tense since it is a prophecy. To God it is a done deal. God is saying with an oath, You are King and priest forever.

Great, so you recognize that whoever the subject is, is only that "priest" and "king" by God's decree and since no future messiah is mentioned, the special decree can't be applied to anyone else. ANd since you prefer that translation, you see that it has nothing to do with Malki-tzedek. Great, so any connection to him is rendered moot.
Oh, wait, you start by needing this to be speaking about an unnamed and external character so you can decide that it refers to him. Well, start with error, end with error. Good luck with that.