Questions for intelligent design follower to answer.

[Deeje]

I know someone who talks and meets with Odin who says that Odin has helped them also. Belief is wonderful but does not provide evidence. How do you even know the god you believe in is a him? Belief in something is different than evidence that can be demonstrated.

I agree...there are just as many poor deluded souls in psyche wards who think they are Jesus Christ.
Evidence though is in the eye of the interpreter. How the godless interpret "evidence" may be the opposite to how a believer interprets it.
Interpretation doesn't make it right just because someone fits all the bits into one box. I can fit all the bits into one box too. We have to choose the box.

The belief in other gods or goddesses has just as much reality as your belief in your god.

I beg to differ. No one has impacted on the lives of so many for so long, more so than Jesus Christ, who only walked in this world as a preacher for three and a half years.

Napoleon once noted:......“An extraordinary power of influencing and commanding men has been given to Alexander, Charlemagne and myself. But with us the presence has been necessary. . . . Whereas Jesus Christ has influenced and commanded His subjects without His visible bodily presence for eighteen hundred years.”
And again he said:..... “Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires, but upon what did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force. Jesus Christ alone founded his kingdom upon love.”

You can choose to ignore all that if you wish. We all have the same choices.....but we also have different reasons for making them.

No greater and no less. Just because you believe one way does deny other views.

People are welcome to hold any view they wish...that is why we were given free will...to make choices. Some choices have everlasting consequences.....some don't. We just have to hope that we make the right ones.

The bible does not answer all of the questions. It does not come even close.

Again, I beg to differ...it answers all of mine and very satisfactorily too. I never felt that way before I learned what the Bible teaches as opposed to what the churches teach. Nothing made sense to me then....but it does now. Most people have no idea what the Bible teaches.

Great for teaching the beliefs for its followers but clearly cannot explain our natural world.
We are doomed if we just sit back and say a god will clean up our mess.

The creator of nature is also its guardian....he has already told us what he will do with those intent on ruining his handiwork.

Speaking about the time in which we now live, it says in Revelation 11:18...

"But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining (or destroying) the earth.”

That was written almost 2,000 years ago. Humans did not have the capacity to destroy the earth back then, but God knew that they would in the future.
He will deal with them because we cannot rely on greedy and corrupt humans to solve the problem, when they ARE the problem. Unless God steps in we ARE doomed.

So you are saying god put life down and is continuingly changing the genetic code? There is evidence for this?

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that the Creator did exactly what he said he did. He created the basic "kinds" of life with the inbuilt ability to adapt to any change in their environment. This produces infinite variety and provides a constant stream of material for scientific study. He made us to be intelligent and to use our mental faculties, including our unique abilities to take care of what he had made.....to be curious about the world and its makeup and our purpose in the big scheme of things. Life wasn't meant to be a boring existence swinging on hammocks in paradise. We were build for work and there is plenty to do. Once all the 'kinks' are ironed out down here, there is nothing stopping the Creator from populating other planets...it is a big universe and forever is a lot of time to accomplish the Creator's purpose for its existence.

Explain how fossils fit into the creation story or were the mistakes made by the god of the bible which the god disposed of in the ground?

Who said anything about "mistakes"? God is a Creator, not a magician. That is what evolutionists seem to misunderstand. Creation was a process that took a very long time to work out to God's satisfaction. At the end of each creative period he expressed that satisfaction because he had worked through all that he wanted to accomplish in that allotted time. By the end of the 6th day he was very satisfied with his efforts and said so. But the 7th day has not yet ended. The Bible tells us where we are in the stream of time, and what will happen next...it just doesn't tell us when.

 

[viole]

This is ludicrous. Who can actually prove a thing? As a middle of the roader, it seems obviously easy to just accept that Evolution shows the effect of a method, and that it is likely that an Intelligence supervised. Why do the idiotic fools on both side get so abusive and emotional about an issue that is legally unprovable. Maybe it would be better if life on earth was so threatening and perilous that no one thought to criticise another?

We can’t.

However, evolution by natural selection is to evolution by divine supervision, as natural gravity is to god supervising the attraction of heavy objects, so that they always fall down and not up.

If you doubt evolution is fully natural, then you must necessarily doubt that gravitation does not require supervision. If not, then you are begging the question that the development of life deserves a higher rank than the mechanisms of gravitational attraction.

And for that, you have no rational justification whatsoever, I am afraid.

In other words, believing that evolution might be guided, is the same as believing that the orbit of planet might be driven by invisible angels in their core. Who can say? Who can prove it is not?

If religious people manage to do that, so let it be it.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Bear Wild]

We can’t.

However, evolution by natural selection is to evolution by divine supervision, as natural gravity is to god supervising the attraction of heavy objects, so that they always fall down and not up.

If you doubt evolution is fully natural, then you must necessarily doubt that gravitation does not require supervision. If not, then you are begging the question that the development of life deserves a higher rank than the mechanisms of gravitational attraction.

And for that, you have no rational justification whatsoever, I am afraid.

In other words, believing that evolution might be guided, is the same as believing that the orbit of planet might be driven by invisible angels in their core. Who can say? Who can prove it is not?

If religious people manage to do that, so let it be it.

Ciao

- viole

I agree with you but my greatest actual concerns about the intelligent design approach is an associated attitude that the designer usually referring to the god of the bible will either fix everything or just make a new world. This seems to absolve believers in seeing the need to take responsibility and fix the problem we are making ourselves. If evolution is accepted then we know species have gone extinct and we should look at what we are doing to our world and take responsibility now. If most of the population expects god to do it and do not take action we are heading for a terrifying end.

 

[A REAL CHRISTIAN]

It always seems that people who believe in evolution are trying to defend the science to a detail yet there are things that need to be addressed if you are proposing Intelligent design. Here are a few question I have to understand the evidence for intelligent design.
1. Did the goddess or god or other form of intelligent design just place DNA on the earth to let life start or was live first placed as a single celled organism or multicellular organism?
2. Is the goddess or god continuously adjusting the DNA or just checking in every now and then to make adjustments needed for life to progress to the way it is today?
3. If the goddess or god place life on the earth as it is today with all its complexity with no precursors and place the fossil record as a hoax or test .
4.. How do we know man was the real intention of the design and not some other life form. What proof do we really have that man is the special one. Maybe its actually the dolphin. They are certainty intelligent and are not destroying the world so maybe they are the most like a god or goddess.
5. Finally which god or goddess - (personally going for Danu) was the goddess or god of Intelligent Design and can we find the evidence which god or goddess is the correct one?

1. Genesis account clearly answers this.
2. Dont get this point but it seems to me the cycle of life was started in Genesis and is on "auto pilot" now.
3. The fossil record is not a trick. A giant flood happened and laid down debris depending on the size weight etc but leave it to people to try and look at the ground in such a way that suits them.
4. Well God didnt come down in dolphin form to die as a sacrifice for all dolphins
5. Yes there is but not really in the realm of science because science is really about taking an observation and various groups fighting over what it means and in the end it is just a debate with various sides claiming the observation helps them. You would have to look into biblical prophecy, foreshadows, etc.

 

[osgart]

There must be an active logical intelligence inherent in matter and energy. Something akin to artificial intelligence. No living entity constantly at work in it. The matter and energy have intelligence built in.

There must be a code to how matter and energy form life.

Its simply far fetched that brute existence aimlessly makes life.

There must be conditions and a logical structure that must be met for life to take root and form. Position, place, and conditions.

Who knows, perhaps life lies dormant all over the earth, just waiting to be spawned.

Anyways the earth is programmed. Its simply carrying out its instruction sets in response to the conditions.

The source of all the programming in nature is far off and away i imagine. Or the programming is eternal intelligence.

So like matter and energy have a language all their own.

 

[Audie]

There must be an active logical intelligence inherent in matter and energy. Something akin to artificial intelligence. No living entity constantly at work in it. The matter and energy have intelligence built in.

There must be a code to how matter and energy form life.

Its simply far fetched that brute existence aimlessly makes life.

There must be conditions and a logical structure that must be met for life to take root and form. Position, place, and conditions.

Who knows, perhaps life lies dormant all over the earth, just waiting to be spawned.

Anyways the earth is programmed. Its simply carrying out its instruction sets in response to the conditions.

The source of all the programming in nature is far off and away i imagine. Or the programming is eternal intelligence.

So like matter and energy have a language all their own.

Um, could you say if you are being serious?

 

[osgart]

Um, could you say if you are being serious?

I was sort of overdoing it, but i believe in natural intelligence.

 

[Bear Wild]

1. Genesis account clearly answers this.
2. Dont get this point but it seems to me the cycle of life was started in Genesis and is on "auto pilot" now.
3. The fossil record is not a trick. A giant flood happened and laid down debris depending on the size weight etc but leave it to people to try and look at the ground in such a way that suits them.
4. Well God didnt come down in dolphin form to die as a sacrifice for all dolphins
5. Yes there is but not really in the realm of science because science is really about taking an observation and various groups fighting over what it means and in the end it is just a debate with various sides claiming the observation helps them. You would have to look into biblical prophecy, foreshadows, etc.

How would you know if god did not come down as a dolphin to sacrifice for all dolphins. This seems as believable as god coming down to for sacrifice for humans. For than matter we should consider this possible for raccoons, skunks, beavers, etc. Now if feel better that god is for all life. Thanks for the idea.
As for mythology as prophecy it can give all the mythological prophecy it wants since it is not real.
Fossil record a trick? Really? Maybe the bible is a trick, that seems much more believable. Fossil laid down in stratified geologic layers with different dates over millions of years. How does a flood explain that. It doesn't.
So Genesis started when only single celled organisms existed on the Earth or was it when complex organic molecules were being formed?

 

[tas8831]

This is ludicrous. Who can actually prove a thing? As a middle of the roader, it seems obviously easy to just accept that Evolution shows the effect of a method, and that it is likely that an Intelligence supervised. Why do the idiotic fools on both side get so abusive and emotional about an issue that is legally unprovable. Maybe it would be better if life on earth was so threatening and perilous that no one thought to criticise another?

What does "legally provable" have to do with anything?

 

[Audie]

What does "legally provable" have to do with anything?

Uh, it relates to like what they do in court?

Nothing to do with science or the topic, tho.

Since we are on "legal" though, this-

Evolution shows the effect of a method, and that it is likely that an Intelligence supervised.

is what the legal beagles would call, "facts not in evidence."

 

[Valjean]

This is ludicrous. Who can actually prove a thing? As a middle of the roader, it seems obviously easy to just accept that Evolution shows the effect of a method, and that it is likely that an Intelligence supervised. Why do the idiotic fools on both side get so abusive and emotional about an issue that is legally unprovable. Maybe it would be better if life on earth was so threatening and perilous that no one thought to criticise another?

Evolution shows "the effect of a method" because evolution is the method. A supernatural power reaching out periodically to magically tweak the laws of Nature is not only unnecessary to achieve the changes we observe, but worrisome. If natural laws were so capricious and unreliable, how could I have any confidence that the water in my sink wouldn't catch fire or that a tossed Frisbee wouldn't go into orbit?
Proof is not the issue. There is no proof that the Earth is round or that germs cause disease. There is only a lot of evidence -- though not as much as we have for evolution.

 

[Valjean]

We begin with a formless and waste planet, completely covered in water and thick cloud layers. The first thing that penetrated the clouds was light. Perhaps God did this by initially thinning the cloud layers...he doesn't say how he accomplished these things...only recording the results.

Earth began as a ball of rock and magma under a rain of asteroids and meteorites -- some of which already contained water. We didn't get liquid water till the planet cooled enough for the water vapor to condense.

Next to appear was dry land, which came up out of the sea. The buckling of Earth's crust may have created the dry land as we know that in the oceans very deep trenches, kilometers deep exist. With the dry land came the first life mentioned...grass and vegetation and every kind of fruit tree all bearing seed for the next generation. These are biologically living things but are inanimate and have no intelligence.

Earth started as dry land -- or rock, and I don't understand how flowering plants preceded the pollinators the flowers were there to attract.

They were created first because when living creatures that required them for food were made, there was specific food and water for them to drink. They also supplied abundant oxygen for other living things to breathe. The atmosphere contained the right mixture of gases to sustain many forms of life.

The early atmosphere was pretty much anoxic, and early life existed and evolved in the oceans, as simple organisms.
Oxygen was a by-product of early life, and, as a highly reactive element, it nearly wiped out the early life that produced it. Eventually, aerobic metabolism evolved to utilize it. Life adapts.

I see in the Genesis account no need for evolution to have ever taken place. Intelligent design makes it redundant....and answers all the questions that evolution raises but cannot answer....like where, when and how did life originate?

Evolution says nothing about life's origins, and Intelligent design -- magic poofing -- has never been observed. It violates the normal, natural functioning of the world we observe every day.
Biological evolution has been observed, and is entirely consistent with the normal functioning of the world.
Genesis is not a biology textbook.

If you assume that evolution must have taken place, then your questions reflect that assumption. Direct creation by a power that humans cannot examine or comprehend, makes the process completely unnecessary. Fine tuning is seen everywhere in the Universe. Fine tuning is the mark of a perfectionist IMO.

Yes, magic and folklore might make evolution unnecessary, but there is no evidence for it, and a great deal against it. There are also numerous different accounts of magical creation in the folk stories of many different tribes.
Why is the folklore of the Hebrews more authoritative than that of the Hopis or Zulus?

Again, if you assume that evolution is the only explanation for life in its many forms on this Earth, then your questions will reflect that assumption.

But it is an evidence-based "assumption." It's the only reasonable conclusion given the abundant, consilient evidence. It's been observed; it's mechanisms are natural, understood and testable.
There is no evidence of magic poofing; it's never been observed, it violates all the commonsense rules we see at work in the world.
If I find a door kicked in, a homeowner shot, a TV missing and bloody footprints leading out of a house, I don't seriously entertain the idea that little green men from a flying saucer set it all up.
Why do you continue to believe the least probable, completely unevidenced explanation?

The fossil record tells scientists nothing more than they are will to extract from it. Those fossils have no voice except the ones science gave them. The only hoax that I can see is the scientists putting words in long dead, bony mouths to support their untestable ideas.

Reasonable assumptions can be drawn from the fossil evidence. What's your interpretation of it?
There is also a great deal more evidence of evolution, and the mechanisms of evolution, than just the fossil record.

No creature on Earth has an impact on this planet like man has. Every other creature lives within the dictates of the environment into which it was placed....both living in perfect harmony. MAN on the other hand alters his environment to suit himself, creating problems in the ecological balance and damaging the habitats of many species, often beyond repair. Man is the misfit in this arrangement.....and the more time goes on and the cleverer he imagines himself to be, the more we ourselves are in danger of extinction.

Here I agree, but I'm guessing you're seeing the hand of God in this, somehow?

If only mankind was as gentle on his environment as the dolphins and whales are in theirs. It is man who is fouling their habitat and creating danger that should never happen to such gentle and intelligent creatures. Humans cannot fix what is wrong with us and where our selfish attitudes are taking us....a power greater than us will do the job, firstly, because he wants to...and secondly because he has to....otherwise there will be no us. He did not go to all this trouble for nothing.....there is a bigger scheme that everyone seems to want to ignore.

Why did God create this deeply flawed, infectious organism, if He knew it would screw everything up?
Are you seriously expecting some deus ex machina to descend from the clouds and magically fix all the damage we've wrought?

There is only one Creator God who is real....YHWH....all the others are fakes created by the pretender who first challenged God's right to set reasonable limits for his human creation....the only ones he gifted with free will. When humans thought that they should decide for themselves what is good and bad...the Creator gave them free reign and allowed them to see for themselves where their own decisions would take them...and here we are.

Following the wrong god, or the wrong religion, or even if you ditch them both.....nothing will alter the outcome. The Bible indicates that we will all answer to the same Judge. So its good to consider the whole story, not just bits of it that don't make much sense the way it is told by unbelievers.

We all have access to the same information so that puts us all on one level.....we decide "what" and "who" to believe for our own reasons. That is how I see it...

You must realize this is all just folklore; that there are many other 'explanations' of the world from different cultures.
Yes, we all have access to the same information, but only one explanation is actually evidenced. All the others are just folklore with no empirical support.

 

[Valjean]

If extraterrestrial intelligence didn't embed the semantic message of "037" in life's genetic code, what/who did?

Semantic messages in the genetic code? You really buy this?

People see patterns and perceive cryptic messages in everything: records played backward, Paul walking barefoot, Bible code, Jesus in a tortilla...
I think you're being apophenic.

 

[Valjean]

I agree...there are just as many poor deluded souls in psyche wards who think they are Jesus Christ.
Evidence though is in the eye of the interpreter. How the godless interpret "evidence" may be the opposite to how a believer interprets it.
Interpretation doesn't make it right just because someone fits all the bits into one box. I can fit all the bits into one box too. We have to choose the box.

All "interpretations" are not equal.Some are just wrong.
Is a claim that 6x12= 75 as valid and reasonable as a conclusion that it's really 72? If you dismiss empirical evidence both are equally probable.

I beg to differ. No one has impacted on the lives of so many for so long, more so than Jesus Christ, who only walked in this world as a preacher for three and a half years.

How is this evidence of anything? Lots of philosophers have influenced the world, lots of religions have come and gone.
Cultural influence seems more consistent with the vagaries of history and military prowess than religious canon.

People are welcome to hold any view they wish...that is why we were given free will...to make choices. Some choices have everlasting consequences.....some don't. We just have to hope that we make the right ones.

And your "everlasting consequences" assertion is based solely on the folklore you've accepted.

Again, I beg to differ...it answers all of mine and very satisfactorily too. I never felt that way before I learned what the Bible teaches as opposed to what the churches teach. Nothing made sense to me then....but it does now. Most people have no idea what the Bible teaches.

What makes sense to you is what your family and friends told you. It's how you were raised, not a result of reason or critical analysis. If you'd been raised in Riyadh I'll bet you'd be a devout Muslim.
You've tailored your philosophy to fit what you were taught; to fit what feels comfortable to you.

 

[tas8831]

Semantic messages in the genetic code? You really buy this?

People see patterns and perceive cryptic messages in everything: records played backward, Paul walking barefoot, Bible code, Jesus in a tortilla...
I think you're being apophenic.

You may remember several years ago someone claimed to have used the bible to make predictions and the like by applying an algorithm of some sort to the bible texts (with spaces removed, of course). Amazingly, they claimed that their "bible code" proved the bible true (AMAZING!) and the like. A while later, a group took their algorithm, tweaked it, and found right there in the 'bible code' the phrase "Darwin was right."

 

[Valjean]

1. Genesis account clearly answers this.

But how about the account according to the Mayan, San or Jivaro religions? What makes Genesis authoritative?

2. Dont get this point but it seems to me the cycle of life was started in Genesis and is on "auto pilot" now.

So a deistic God, active at the creation but no longer? No miracles or divine activity for the past 13.8 Billion years?

3. The fossil record is not a trick. A giant flood happened and laid down debris depending on the size weight etc but leave it to people to try and look at the ground in such a way that suits them.

No, this is just wrong. There is absolutely no empirical evidence of a worldwide flood, and such a flood would have left a lot of evidence. All the evidence is of a gradual development over millions of years.

4. Well God didnt come down in dolphin form to die as a sacrifice for all dolphins

Nor is there any evidence He came down as a human -- or that he even exists. In fact, you claimed above He'd likely been inactive for all of history

5. Yes there is but not really in the realm of science because science is really about taking an observation and various groups fighting over what it means and in the end it is just a debate with various sides claiming the observation helps them. You would have to look into biblical prophecy, foreshadows, etc.

But scientific claims are tested, repeatable, and peer reviewed. Biblical prophecy is pretty much cherry picking passages that might vaguely allude to some known event. You could find the same allusions in Alice in Wonderland.

 

[Valjean]

Its simply far fetched that brute existence aimlessly makes life.

ROFL! -- whoever claimed such a thing?

There must be conditions and a logical structure that must be met for life to take root and form. Position, place, and conditions.

Exactly! Simple chemistry -- just what you'd expect given the physical conditions.

Anyways the earth is programmed. Its simply carrying out its instruction sets in response to the conditions.

May be -- any evidence?

The source of all the programming in nature is far off and away i imagine. Or the programming is eternal intelligence.

So like matter and energy have a language all their own.

Now you're just speculating.

 

[Valjean]

I was sort of overdoing it, but i believe in natural intelligence.

What's meant by "natural intelligence?"

 

[Audie]

ROFL! -- whoever claimed such a thing?
Exactly! Simple chemistry -- just what you'd expect given the physical conditions.
May be -- any evidence?
Now you're just speculating.

"Making things up"

 

[osgart]

What's meant by "natural intelligence?"

That conditions in nature have their own purposes, and make choices based on conditions. Nature is its own guiding force. It proceeds by its own logic. It gathers information and makes use of it.

I dont think the whole of nature is intelligent, but a part of it seems to be. Its a crude intelligence that forms living things. Perhaps a non living intelligence that always existed or was set in order by a living source.

I am speculating by what seems so to be in my intuitions.