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Featured Questions for intelligent design follower to answer.

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by Wild Fox, Dec 10, 2018.

  1. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    It always seems that people who believe in evolution are trying to defend the science to a detail yet there are things that need to be addressed if you are proposing Intelligent design. Here are a few question I have to understand the evidence for intelligent design.
    1. Did the goddess or god or other form of intelligent design just place DNA on the earth to let life start or was live first placed as a single celled organism or multicellular organism?
    2. Is the goddess or god continuously adjusting the DNA or just checking in every now and then to make adjustments needed for life to progress to the way it is today?
    3. If the goddess or god place life on the earth as it is today with all its complexity with no precursors and place the fossil record as a hoax or test .
    4.. How do we know man was the real intention of the design and not some other life form. What proof do we really have that man is the special one. Maybe its actually the dolphin. They are certainty intelligent and are not destroying the world so maybe they are the most like a god or goddess.
    5. Finally which god or goddess - (personally going for Danu) was the goddess or god of Intelligent Design and can we find the evidence which god or goddess is the correct one?
     
  2. Woberts

    Woberts The Perfumed Seneschal

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    Realistically the answers are going to be "God did it!" and without little substance. Plus, how would your average Mormon know what their God's doing?
     
  3. Salvador

    Salvador RF's Swedenborgian

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    An intelligent signal transmitted via genetic code that has been documented and confirmed by scientists researching the WOW signal of the terrestrial genetic code is prima facie evidence for an intelligent designer.

    There is indeed evidence for a mark of extraterrestrial intelligence left in our genetic code as evident by how the numeric and semantic message of 037 appears in our genetic code. Each codon relates to 3 other particular codons having the same particular type of initial nucleobase and sequential nucleobase subsequently then followed by a different ending nucleobase. Half of these 4 set of codon groups ( whole family codons ) each code for the same particular amino acid. The other half of those 4 set of codon groups ( split codons ) don't code for the same amino acid. So then, in the case of whole family codons, there are 37 amino acid peptide chain nucleons for each relevant nucleobase determinant of how a particular amino acid gets coded. Start codons express 0 at the beginning of 37 Hence, the meaningful numeric and semantic message of 037 gets unambiguously and factually conveyed to us descendants of our cosmic ancestor(s) with our genetic code invented by a superior intelligence beyond that of anybody presently bound to Earth.

    “There is no plausible chemical logic to couple directly the triplets and the amino acids. In other words, the principles of chemistry where not the sought essence of the genetic code”

    “The zero is the supreme abstraction of arithmetic. Its use by any alphabet, including the genetic code, can be an indicator of artificiality.”

    "The place-value decimal system represented through digital symmetry of the numbers divisible by prime number (PN 037). This arithmetical syntactic feature is an innate attribute of the genetic code. The PN 037 notation with a leading zero emphasizes zero's equal participation in the digital symmetry. Numbers written by identical digits are devised by PN 037*3=111 and 1+1+1=3 and appear regularly [from the figure: 037*6 =222 and 2+2+2=6, 037*9=333 and 3+3+3 =9, 037*4=444 and 4+4+4=12, 037*15=555 and 5+5+5=15, 037*18=666 and 6+6+6=18, 037*21=777 and 7+7+7 =21. 037*24 =888 and 8+8+8=24, 037*27=999 and 9+9+9=27.)"

    "There is a complete set of information symbols utilizing the decimal syntax 111, 222, 333, 444, 555, 666, 777, 888, 999 in the genetic code. Each of these symbols consists uniformly of a carrier (balanced nucleons) and a meaning (the decimal syntax)."

    Reference: The "Wow! signal" of the terrestrial genetic code. Vladimir l. shCherbak and Maxim A. Makukov. Redirectinghttps://www.scribd.com/document/35302916...netic-Code

    "The first information system emerged on the earth as primordial version of the genetic code and genetic texts. The natural appearance of arithmetic power in such a linguistic milieu is theoretically possible and practical for producing information systems of extremely high efficiency. In this case, the arithmetic symbols should be incorporated into an alphabet, i.e. the genetic code. A number is the fundamental arithmetic symbol produced by the system of numeration. If the system of numeration were detected inside the genetic code, it would be natural to expect that its purpose is arithmetic calculation e.g., for the sake of control, safety, and precise alteration of the genetic texts. The nucleons of amino acids and the bases of nucleic acids seem most suitable for embodiments of digits. These assumptions were used for the analyzing the genetic code.

    The compressed, life-size, and split representation of the Escherichia coli and Euplotes octocarinatus code versions were considered simultaneously. An exact equilibration of the nucleon sums of the amino acid standard blocks and/or side chains was found repeatedly within specified sets of the genetic code. Moreover, the digital notations of the balanced sums acquired, in decimal representation, the unique form 111, 222, …, 999. This form is a consequence of the criterion of divisibility by 037. The criterion could simplify some computing mechanism of a cell if any and facilitate its computational procedure.

    Reference: Biosystems Volume 70, Issue 3, August 2003, Pages 187-209
    "Arithmetic inside the universal genetic code" Author: Vladimir I. shCherbak

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar...4703000662

    "Numerous arithmetical regularities of nucleon numbers of canonical amino acids for quite different systematizations of the genetic code, which are dominantly based on decimal number 037, indicate the hidden existence of a more universal ordering principle. Mathematical analysis of number 037 reveals that it is a unique decimal number from which an infinite set of self-similar numbers can be derived with the nested numerical, geometrical, and arithmetical properties, thus enabling the nested coding and computing in the (bio)systems by geometry and resonance. The omnipresent fractal structural and dynamical organization, as well as the intertwining of quantum and classical realm in the physical and biological systems could be just the consequence of such coding and computing."

    Reference: NeuroQuantology | December 2011 | Vol 9 | Issue 4 | Page 702-715 Masic, Natasa Nested Properties of shCherbak’s PQ 037 and (Biological) Coding/Computing Nested Numeric/Geometric/Arithmetic Propertiesof shCherbak’s Prime Quantum 037 as a Base of (Biological) Coding/Computing
    http://Nested Numeric/Geometric/Arithmetic Properties


    Exactly who/what left its/their mark in our genetic coding might not ever get determined by anybody presently bound to Earth. The search for our cosmic relatives and cosmic common ancestor likely then needs to be done with advanced space exploration. I'd like to urge you then to please advise our Senate, Congress and President to expand our tax-payer funded resources for advance space exploration.



     
  4. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Well that a lot to digest. I started on the wow signal and guess what its signal is not alien but hydrogen. Google phys. Org 2017 so everything after that is well not worth reading actually.

    In regards to the intellect designing the cosmos there is a circular self referencial issue there. There is also a reductionism issue, and there is a virtual reality issue with it. So there are three issues all related to psychological issues not really science issues. science at times has the same exact same issues as well.

    This all leads to debates that are circular, reductive, and virtual which to me seems "normal"... Its not really healthy for me to think like that so i have learned how to not do that.
     
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  5. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    This is ludicrous. Who can actually prove a thing? As a middle of the roader, it seems obviously easy to just accept that Evolution shows the effect of a method, and that it is likely that an Intelligence supervised. Why do the idiotic fools on both side get so abusive and emotional about an issue that is legally unprovable. Maybe it would be better if life on earth was so threatening and perilous that no one thought to criticise another?
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I'll have a crack at this Mr Fox....

    The Bible account in Genesis states that there was a long period of preparation before sentient life was created. That doesn't mean that life did not exist before the 6th "day" (or creative period....we believe that each "day" could have been millions of years long).

    We begin with a formless and waste planet, completely covered in water and thick cloud layers. The first thing that penetrated the clouds was light. Perhaps God did this by initially thinning the cloud layers...he doesn't say how he accomplished these things...only recording the results.

    Then a division between the water on the earth and the water above the earth was made creating an atmosphere.

    Next to appear was dry land, which came up out of the sea. The buckling of Earth's crust may have created the dry land as we know that in the oceans very deep trenches, kilometers deep exist. With the dry land came the first life mentioned...grass and vegetation and every kind of fruit tree all bearing seed for the next generation. These are biologically living things but are inanimate and have no intelligence. They were created first because when living creatures that required them for food were made, there was specific food and water for them to drink. They also supplied abundant oxygen for other living things to breathe. The atmosphere contained the right mixture of gases to sustain many forms of life.

    I see in the Genesis account no need for evolution to have ever taken place. Intelligent design makes it redundant....and answers all the questions that evolution raises but cannot answer....like where, when and how did life originate?

    If you assume that evolution must have taken place, then your questions reflect that assumption. Direct creation by a power that humans cannot examine or comprehend, makes the process completely unnecessary. Fine tuning is seen everywhere in the Universe. Fine tuning is the mark of a perfectionist IMO.

    Again, if you assume that evolution is the only explanation for life in its many forms on this Earth, then your questions will reflect that assumption.
    The fossil record tells scientists nothing more than they are will to extract from it. Those fossils have no voice except the ones science gave them. The only hoax that I can see is the scientists putting words in long dead, bony mouths to support their untestable ideas.

    No creature on Earth has an impact on this planet like man has. Every other creature lives within the dictates of the environment into which it was placed....both living in perfect harmony. MAN on the other hand alters his environment to suit himself, creating problems in the ecological balance and damaging the habitats of many species, often beyond repair. Man is the misfit in this arrangement.....and the more time goes on and the cleverer he imagines himself to be, the more we ourselves are in danger of extinction.

    If only mankind was as gentle on his environment as the dolphins and whales are in theirs. It is man who is fouling their habitat and creating danger that should never happen to such gentle and intelligent creatures. Humans cannot fix what is wrong with us and where our selfish attitudes are taking us....a power greater than us will do the job, firstly, because he wants to...and secondly because he has to....otherwise there will be no us. He did not go to all this trouble for nothing.....there is a bigger scheme that everyone seems to want to ignore.

    There is only one Creator God who is real....YHWH....all the others are fakes created by the pretender who first challenged God's right to set reasonable limits for his human creation....the only ones he gifted with free will. When humans thought that they should decide for themselves what is good and bad...the Creator gave them free reign and allowed them to see for themselves where their own decisions would take them...and here we are.

    Following the wrong god, or the wrong religion, or even if you ditch them both.....nothing will alter the outcome. The Bible indicates that we will all answer to the same Judge. So its good to consider the whole story, not just bits of it that don't make much sense the way it is told by unbelievers.

    We all have access to the same information so that puts us all on one level.....we decide "what" and "who" to believe for our own reasons. That is how I see it...
     
  7. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    I have read the article before and not much since that time. Interesting observations. Nature seems to have very interesting special numbers. They include pi, phi and plank's constant just to name a few. Still these are interesting numbers in nature but do not indicate an intelligent designer.
     
  8. Salvador

    Salvador RF's Swedenborgian

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    If extraterrestrial intelligence didn't embed the semantic message of "037" in life's genetic code, what/who did?
     
  9. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    There you go again stating there is only one god again. You don't know that the god of the bible is the god if there really is a real god. There is just as much evidence that there must be a god and goddess which seems much more balanced and with a considerable number to choose from. You are happy with the god you believe in and that is just fine. But you did not address all of the questions I had. But I do agree on one thing, humans are making a mess of the world but it is up to humans to fix the problem. To expect a god or goddess to come in and clean things up is ridiculous. We need to clean the mess we made.
     
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  10. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it is just an attribute of the natural world. At least that is the way I would see it.
     
  11. Salvador

    Salvador RF's Swedenborgian

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    The scientists who discovered the WOW signal of the terrestrial genetic code, ruled out the likelihood of natural causes for how the semantic message 037 became embedded in life's genetic code.

    " the terrestrial code displays a thorough precision-type orderliness matching the criteria to be considered an informational signal. Simple arrangements of the code reveal an ensemble of arithmetical and ideographical patterns of the same symbolic language. Accurate and systematic, these underlying patterns appear as a product of precision logic and nontrivial computing rather than of stochastic processes (the null hypothesis that they are due to chance coupled with presumable evolutionary pathways is rejected with P-value < 10–13). The patterns are profound to the extent that the code mapping itself is uniquely deduced from their algebraic representation. The signal displays readily recognizable hallmarks of artificiality, among which are the symbol of zero, the privileged decimal syntax and semantical symmetries. Besides, extraction of the signal involves logically straightforward but abstract operations, making the patterns essentially irreducible to any natural origin."
     
  12. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    I am not trying to be abusive. I do not think I am an idiotic fool either. Debate on a subject makes us all think and that is what is important. It is good to be challenged and I have learned from some of the challenges presented. Ignorance is a greater threat to our planet that debate. Ignoring what we are doing to our world as we slowly destroy it is the biggest threat to life, not the challenges presented in a forum. I suspect we all learn from each others different views. So I will gladly take you opinion into consideration but do not think it is fair to call those who challenge ideas on either side as idiotic fools.
     
  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Oh, but I do know that the God of the Bible is real....I have a close relationship with him and he has directed my life for over four decades now.
    I have had so many prayers answered that you could not begin to know how real this God is to me. I met him (metaphorically speaking) when I was very young....I didn't always walk within his requirements as an immature youth, but he patiently waited for me to grow up and become the person he knew I was capable of being. My life has not been a bed of roses but if it had been, I would have known I was on the wrong path. His guidance over that time has never led me in the wrong direction.

    Not if you understand where the idea for those gods and goddesses came from and why they exist in people's minds.
    Having a view of the big picture gives you a vantage point that others do not have....even if they stand on their tippy toes. They stare at a few dead pixels in one corner and whine that nothing makes sense. It all makes sense to those who see beyond where others stop.There is practically no question that the Bible does not provide a satisfying answer for.

    What questions did I fail to address?

    As I said to another poster recently....humankind created this mess and have never found a way to curb their greed for wealth and power enough to preserve the environment and to care about all the other lifeforms who share this planet with us.......and yet you still have faith in him.....why? The monster he has created is bigger than his ability to kill it. Can't you see that?

    If we don't have an all powerful, Intelligent Creator who put all of planet Earth's systems and lifeforms in place, then we are doomed. I believe he will show himself to all in the not too distant future....but only after there is one last form of rulership that is left to be tried.....a single world government with one set of laws for all......it will be introduced as a way to secure peace in the world....but it will end up stripping us of every right and freedom we have ever fought for. It will be a disaster, worse than anything ever seen on earth before....but it will last only a short while according to scripture....everything else that the Bible predicted has come true, so I have no reason to doubt what it says.

    Why do you doubt its truthfulness? Have you ever studied it carefully?
     
  14. Salvador

    Salvador RF's Swedenborgian

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    I think you may have confused the WOW signal of the terrestrial genetic code with the radio signal dubbed the WOW signal received by Ohio State's Big Ear radio telescope used in the search for extraterrestrial intelligence on August 15th 1977?

    The 40-Year Old Mystery of the “Wow!” Signal Was Just Solved

     
  15. Salvador

    Salvador RF's Swedenborgian

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    As I've noted elsewhere in some other discussions about Christianity, Jesus's family tree has a time span of 77 generations listed between his generation and Adam whom the Bible claims was the "first man". Reference: (Luke 3:23-38) and Eve whom the Bible claims as the mother of all the living. (Genesis 3:20)

    However, the Australian aborigines have evidently been in Australia for over a thousand consecutive generations. Reference: Aboriginal Australians - Wikipedia

    There have been hundreds of generations of Native Americans between the time their common ancestry migrated from Asia until the time of Christ.
    Reference: Native Americans in the United States - Wikipedia

    Of course, the Bible is wrong; in fact, there were people prior to the 76th generation before Christ that allegedly was spawned by Adam and Eve.

    Adam as being the first man and perpetrator of original sin is an important premise of Christianity. If Adam wasn't the first man, then there isn't actually any "origin sin". Jesus supposedly died on the Cross to save humankind from "original sin". If there isn't any "original sin" from which to be saved, then Jesus Christ's death on the Cross is pretty pointless and meaningless. Evidently, there were many generations of people prior to the 76th generation before Christ whom the Bible claims was spawned by Adam. So then, Adam, Eve and original sin are mythological. There is neither any "first man" nor "original sin" throughout human evolution. Thus, Jesus Christ having died on the cross to save mankind from "original sin" is not reality but is rather mythological.

    The fossil record isn't the only evidence in support of evolution. There is other collaborating evidence, such as overwhelming genetic evidence of common ancestry between humans and other great ape species.

    Specific examples from comparative physiology and biochemistry:

    Chromosome 2 in humans

    Main article: Chromosome 2 (human)

    Further information: Chimpanzee Genome Project § Genes of the Chromosome 2 fusion site

    Figure 1b: Fusion of ancestral chromosomes left distinctive remnants of telomeres, and a vestigial centromere
    Evidence for the evolution of Homo sapiens from a common ancestor with chimpanzees is found in the number of chromosomes in humans as compared to all other members of Hominidae. All hominidae have 24 pairs of chromosomes, except humans, who have only 23 pairs. Human chromosome 2 is a result of an end-to-end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes.

    The evidence for this includes:
    The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the common chimpanzee, has near-identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan.
    The presence of a vestigial centromere. Normally a chromosome has just one centromere, but in chromosome 2 there are remnants of a second centromere.
    The presence of vestigial telomeres. These are normally found only at the ends of a chromosome, but in chromosome 2 there are additional telomere sequences in the middle.

    Chromosome 2 thus presents strong evidence in favour of the common descent of humans and other apes. According to J. W. Ijdo, "We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2
    [​IMG]
    Figure 1b: Fusion of ancestral chromosomes left distinctive remnants of telomeres, and a vestigial centromere

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_o...on_descent

    Endogenous retroviruses (or ERVs) are remnant sequences in the genome left from ancient viral infections in an organism. The retroviruses (or virogenes) are always passed on to the next generation of that organism that received the infection. This leaves the virogene left in the genome. Because this event is rare and random, finding identical chromosomal positions of a virogene in two different species suggests common ancestry. Cats (Felidae) present a notable instance of virogene sequences demonstrating common descent. The standard phylogenetic tree for Felidae have smaller cats (Felis chaus, Felis silvestris, Felis nigripes, and Felis catus) diverging from larger cats such as the subfamily Pantherinae and other carnivores. The fact that small cats have an ERV where the larger cats do not suggests that the gene was inserted into the ancestor of the small cats after the larger cats had diverged. Another example of this is with humans and chimps. Humans contain numerous ERVs that comprise a considerable percentage of the genome. Sources vary, but 1% to 8% has been proposed. Humans and chimps share seven different occurrences of virogenes, while all primates share similar retroviruses congruent with phylogeny.

    [​IMG]

    The first individual of the genus Homo-species formed from a couple of Australopithecus hetero zygotes, each of whom had the same type of chromosome rearrangements formed by fusion of the whole long arms of two acrocentric chromosomes, mated together and reproduced viable and fertile offspring with 46 chromosomes.

    This first generation of Homo habilis then incestuously bred with each other and reproduced the next subsequent generation of Homo habilis.

    References:
    1. J. Tjio and A. Levan. 1956. The chromosome number of Man. Hereditas, 42( 1-2): 1-6.
    2. W. Ijdo et al.1991. Origin of human chromosome 2: an ancestral telomere-telomere fusión. PNAS, 88: 9051-9056.
    3. Meyer et al. 2012 A high-coverage genome sequence from an archaic Denisovan individual. Science, 338:222-226.; K. H. Miga. 2016. Chromosome-specific Centromere sequences provide an estímate of the Ancestral Chromosome 2 Fusion event in Hominin Genome.Journ. of Heredity. 1-8. Doi:10.1093/jhered/esw039.
    [​IMG]

    There's plenty of evidence humans share common ancestry with other great apes.

    Evidence of common descent - Wikipedia

    ERVs provide the closest thing to a mathematical proof for evolution.. ERVs are the relics of ancient viral infections preserved in our DNA. The odd thing is many ERVs are located in exactly the same position on our genome and the chimpanzee genome! There are two explanations for the perfectly matched ERV locations. Either it is an unbelievable coincidence that viruses just by chance were inserted in exactly the same location in our genomes, or humans and chimps share a common ancestor. The chances that a virus was inserted at the exact same location is 1 in 3,000,000,000. Humans and chimps share 7 instances of viruses inserted at perfectly matched location. It was our common ancestor that was infected, and we both inherited the ERVs.

    Johnson, Welkin E.; Coffin, John M. (1999-08-31). "Constructing primate phylogenies from ancient retrovirus sequences". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. 96(18): 10254–10260. Bibcode:1999PNAS...9610254J. doi:10.1073/pnas.96.18.10254. ISSN 0027-8424. PMC 17875. PMID 10468595.
     
  16. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    I have little doubt that other people using different methods could find a different 'code' in DNA. People finding codes does not mean the 'codes' were inventions,m put there for a purpose.
     
  17. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    This is a tired and worn out subject for me. Perhaps Evolution best describes "what we know". It just seems implausible that it was all just a roll of the dice. No one can prove it.
     
  18. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    I know someone who talks and meets with Odin who says that Odin has helped them also. Belief is wonderful but does not provide evidence. How do you even know the god you believe in is a him? Belief in something is different than evidence that can be demonstrated.
    The belief in other gods or goddesses has just as much reality as your belief in your god. No greater and no less. Just because you believe one way does deny other views.
    The bible does not answer all of the questions. It does not come even close. Great for teaching the beliefs for its followers but clearly cannot explain our natural world.
    We are doomed if we just sit back and say a god will clean up our mess.
     
  19. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    So you are saying god put life down and is continuingly changing the genetic code? There is evidence for this?
    Explain how fossils fit into the creation story or were the mistakes made by the god of the bible which the god disposed of in the ground?
     
  20. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    I can understand why this seems tired and worn out but it is the most targeted scientific theory while others with less evidence are never questioned. I hope that we learn something from these discussions even if it is to understand the reasons for the disagreement. I must also admit I have learned some very interesting new things in the science of evolution from the challenges so it is not all without value. I do however respect your opinion since this argument has never stopped since it was first proposed.
     
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