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Featured Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Trailblazer, Jul 21, 2018.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    That is not true. I do not pretend to know something others don't know. Most religious people believe that God is an immaterial Being. If God is not a material Being, God has to be an immaterial Being. I do not pretend to know what that means.

    Mainstream Christians are the only ones who believe that God became a material being when Jesus incarnated and became a man.
     
  2. Vaderecta

    Vaderecta Active Member

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    Do you have something against mainstream christians? They are a fraction of the planet. You are saying god is not this therefore god must be whatever you say next.

    It doesnt make sense in almost any other context. Except you go one step further. You claim to know something. Something no one knows. And you want to beat people over the head with your self-righteous nonsense. Its just what you think. You can think that. You can be catholic, muslim, mormon or an atheist and no one really cares. You seem to be going beyond that and stating you are some next level order of your faith and if only people knew what you knew then they would believe. I don't really follow this forum lately. I'm not after you in particular. I get annoyed with prophets and people that hate and or assign blame to a really small group of people because they some how know something they can't prove or explain but just because.

    Its not ok to berate people who dont agree with you or to marginalize various aspects of our society because of some personal belief. Make a reasoned argument.
     
  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Let me ask. I dont use this analogy at all since Im not your everyday atheist; but, let me ask...

    If an fairy (not god) told you it will help you from falling off while you are hanging, would you

    1. Believe the fairy regardless if it is real?

    2. Take consideration that it is real before you accept its help?

    3. Ignore the fairy because you dont trust it based on whether its
    real?

    4. Trust the fairy because you life depends on it and the fairy being real doesnt matter in comparison to your life?

    If you answer it as if the fairy is god, it will influence my point. If you answer it as is, then it will give me a better idea of belief vs fact.
     
  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    No, I have nothing against mainstream Christians... I am not saying that God is what I say He is, I am just saying what I believe God is according to my religion. What's wrong with that?
    You are projecting your thoughts and feelings onto me. I do not think that people should believe what i do. Everyone has free will. Belief is a choice.
    I fully agree that it is not okay to berate or marginalize anyone. We have a right to disagree but we should do so respectfully. Reasoned argument about what?
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I would not believe someone who told me they were a fairy. I would have no reason to believe them.
    I do not believe in fairies.
     
  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    If your life were in danger (falling off a cliff) would you reconsider?

    Existence of fairies is beside the point. Im an artist. I use my imagination for things.
     
  7. Vaderecta

    Vaderecta Active Member

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    I'm very happy with this response. I'm not trying to project anything except a response to your words in this thread. And I do not believe anything is wrong with a belief in god or even a nonbelief in god. Everyone has their path.

    Reasoned argument about some of the things you want me or anyone to accept as something that transcends your personal narrative and should affect me. You said: God is an immaterial Being

    Ok, based on what? I hear you say that but I also can say my car gets 33 MPG on most days. I can show you data and you can take my car or a similar one and perform your own tests to agree or not. Whether you find I'm telling the truth or not is something everyone else can try. Your claim that god is real and is an immateral being. You claim Atheists can only be so if they are biased. Are you aware of your past comments in this thread? I do not want to quote them all. You seem to grasp what I am saying. Its ok to make mistakes. Own it and move on.
     
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  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I suppose maybe I might consider it an angel, in which case I might reconsider.
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I fully agree that we all have our own path. If someone has found their path they can stop to converse with others and learn about their path... If someone has not found a spiritual path they might want to find one or not. That is their choice. I firmly believe in free will and that everyone should make their own choices. Nobody should ever tell anyone else what to believe or disbelieve.
    Nothing I say about God is not something I claim. What I say is based upon the scriptures of the Baha'i Faith, what we call "the Writings of Baha'u'llah." I do not believe there is any other way to know anything about God except by what is revealed by God to Messengers of God, also called Prophets or Manifestations of God. So is is them who claim to know certain things about God, not me. They are mediators between God and man.
    I post so many posts I cannot remember all my past comments. I might have said something that you misunderstood. Let's start over. I do not think that atheists are any more biased than anyone else. We all have a bias based upon what we believe and our past experiences.
     
  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Its an analogy for a fairy rather than an angel. Once you change the details, the question is influenced by your belief rather than the point (already in the original post).

    If it were a fairy, you may reconsider?

    If yes, why.
    If no, why not.


    Assuming it is a real fairy.
     
  11. Vaderecta

    Vaderecta Active Member

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    You can believe that but if you get charged with murder and some dude was with you 1,000 miles away from said murder and he said god told him you did it and he was one of your messengers of god... nevermind. Figure it out.

    Tons of people know about god and they are not of your faith and think you are a lunatic. I personally don't really care about your personal beliefs and do not expect anyone to care about mine. You found a faith you like.. go enjoy that community and be happy.
     
  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    There is no such thing as a real fairy.
    A fairy is by definition imaginary.
     
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Messengers of God do not do what you said....

    Why would it matter what people think? Truth is not dependent upon what people believe it is.
    God decides what the Truth is. We either discover it or not.
     
  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Yes. I know. I use my imagination a lot; so, it is a real question. Youre diverting the question.

    If- a big IF- there was a fairy that wanted to save you from danger, you said possibily (before you changed it into an angel) let them, why or why not?

    Is it only because they dont exist?

    Explore this for a bit.

    I know there arent any fairies (actually, that conversation is too much imagination and analogy, so Ima stick to this question). The point is in my first post to you.
     
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Sure, I would want to be saved from danger and I would let a fairy save me.
     
  16. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Thank you!

    Some people would say no because they dont believe in fairies (facts over saving their lives)

    Others dont look at facts just belief or trust but facts are irrevelant to their lives saved.

    I understand both views (and dont know why atheists and theists argue over it), and I see disadvantages in both.

    But I dont take sides. Interesting choice.
     
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  17. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    Un-mince as you wish but I have not ran into a single Baha'i that wasn't extremely polite I hope you don't break that record. Ok, you think Christians get their own scriptures wrong (which is required by your faith) so lets see which ones.

    Your personal preference whether God came to earth or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is the evidence that shows his coming here was more probable than not. IOW the record of Christ's life. God is spirit but he is also capable of all logically possible acts and it is logically possible a spirit could put on the physical form of a man. Any God that couldn't is less of a God than mine. To say that people saw Jesus is not to say they comprehended him in his entirety. So we agree but this still causes no problem for my worldview.

    First you must understand what it is I think God is. I believe God is one being composed of 3 persons. There is nothing logically incoherent about this. How it occurred is a divine mystery but there is nothing irreconcilable about it. I believe one of those equally divine beings assumed the roll of a human so that we could better relate to him despite being divine. Jesus was not the father but he was equally divine. Same with the Holy Spirit but he didn't assume a human body. So keep this in mind. One being, composed of 3 persons all equally divine.

    This I can pretty much agree to. When Jesus came to earth his full divinity was shrouded in some mysterious way which meant we were not perceiving his full divinity. How much do you think you could relate to a God in his full magisterium? So yes, seeing Jesus was not to witness his full divinity. Maybe his acts approached deity but not his appearance.

    Seeing Jesus is to see God but not to see him in his entirety. It was God just in a shrouded form. No Jesus manifestation was not a perfect reflection of the fathers majesty. For example he said he didn't even know when the last day would be and he also struggled with his flesh in the garden. He was fully God but his full Godhood was not on display. About the Holy Spirit he at least said the holy spirit would not come to minister to man unless he himself left. So I don't understand exactly what that meant but your understanding of the bible doesn't seem to be accurate here. Also my understanding is that Holy Spirit is the third person of the trinity and not just some "bounty" of God.

    God is forever one and cannot be divided into parts.

    “And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192 [/quote] No offence but I consider Bahaullah a false prophet (and I also hate trying to type his name) and so can do no other than consign his writing to the dust bin. That sucks for you but what else can I possibly do. You forced to contend with me on only shared ground and the only ground we share is the bible so posting Baha'i writings just doesn't have any effect on me.​

    I can agree with most of this. I believe God is one being composed of 3 persons with identical essences, what makes the persons is having distinct wills, but these distinct wills are in perfect harmony. Yes they do take on differing actions but each is fully divine.

    Yes one being, one God. Composed of 3 persons.

    I believe Jesus is and was the only true mediator (if by mediator you mean the messiah who would take away the sins of man) who has ever existed. But if you mean mediator as in (someone who God spoke through) then I think there have been many mediators including the other authors of the bible that existed during Jesus'' time. Depends on what you mean by mediator.

    No mediators but Christ then, before, and after assuming you mean savior by mediator.

    Yes his soul was 100% divine and his flesh was 100% like mine. His flesh had all the weaknesses that our does but his divine spirit always conquered those weaknesses.

    The bible gave me that idea. It also has a form of obvious logic to it. Sin's ultimate debt is to God, it's only to other sin a secondary sense. Now the verse you quoted is one I use to show that Jesus was God. Since only God could and did forgive sins (in an ultimate sense) then that makes Jesus God. You won't even find the major prophets forgiving sins in their own name or power. Even the high priest of Israel could only push sin's debt forward a year every year until Christ arrived to blot it out completely.

     
  18. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    @Trailblazer

    Continued from above:

    The bible does not agree with your idea about the soul going to spiritual realms when the body dies. The bible describes death as a sleep like state. That is why it says that a trumpet will wake all the dead on the day of judgment. It also says our death will pass like the twinkling of an eye. If what Christ taught was brought back to life after three days that was a secondary meaning. This is very complex stuff but Christian second death (Hell) is separation from God. That is what Christ suffered for us so we won't have to. When his earthly body died in a sense Christ suffered hell (separation from God) in our place. The bible says he went to hell and took the keys to it away from Satan. As I said it would take me at least oen post to lay this doctrine out but what the bible says was brought back after three days was Christ's union with the father. If you want to really cover this stuff we would have to concentrate on it alone, it's complex stuff.

    Sorry but I am running out of time tonight. Could I ask you to pick one or two subjects so we may sufficiently cover them? Your just touching on so many very deep subjects that I can't really do justice to any one of them. Would you like to discuss resurrection bodies, what happened to Christ while dead, what his resurrection means, spiritual verses physical death, etc....? We don't have to leave any of them out but we do need to slow down and take one at a time. If you do not agree to this and I can remember I will try and go back and at least answer the parts of this post I couldn't get to.

    God Bless, 1robin
     
  19. Truly Enlightened

    Truly Enlightened Well-Known Member

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    History, common sense, intuition, logic, inductive/deductive reasoning, facts, and cause and effect, are the tools we used to determine the probability of history repeating itself. Introducing the term "prove" is only a distraction. Nothing can prove(absolutely) anything. At best, these tools can only indicate a very high degree of certainty. So hiding behind absolute certainty(proof), is no better than saying that I am right, because you can't PROVE I am wrong. Again, another fallacy. Because we can't see into the future, doesn't mean that anything is possible by default. This is the position of all theistic and metaphysical claims, UNFALSIBILITY. What most religious proponents fail to understand because of their bias and closed minds, is that history can't prove that a new world order is not possible, but it also can't prove that it IS possible. Since there are no new world orders in existence, history must rely only on the failures of past attempts.

    I really don't see how it is possible for anyone to still retain their habits, practices, beliefs, customs, rituals, and nuances of their particular culture, and still be part of this new world order. Since this new order carries with it, its own religiosity and practices. With all the positive and negative behavioral reinforcements, and other social, psychological and biological constraints, free will is only an illusion. People can easily be manipulated and controlled, especially if you tell them what they want to hear. Confirmation bias, repetition, and cognitive dissonance, are also very powerful tools for persuasions.

    It is becoming painfully clear that you only believe that your claims are true. If your evidence is in the form of scriptural hearsay, or an appeal to the supernatural, then you have no evidence at all. If this belief floats your boat, then enjoy the ride. But I personally would prepare myself for a stormy reality check. Also, both history and the Bible have clearly demonstrated how God has failed. Finally, why wouldn't one Messenger be enough? Does His Messengers have a shelf life? Once you start "quote-mining" from scripture, the argument is over. Now you are simply proselytizing and sermonizing. Both are against the rules of this forum. Either demonstrate the validity of your claims, or stop wasting both our times.
     
  20. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I want to go alittle further, if you dont mind.

    Since salvation is higher importance than the nature and existence of the fairy, would its existence be present only because it helped you or even if it didnt help you, its presence is there regardless if it is real or not?

    Is it more acceptance of a stranger until you were saved to know about it, or what was the motivator to trust something (a stranger)-was it just to save your life or is there something else involved while you are hangng off the cliff?
     
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