Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[Sir Doom]

That would be true unless God chose the Messenger, gave Him the authority to speak on His behalf, and conferred infallibility upon the Messenger.

Just another version of speaking for God. No God has ever told me who their messenger is. Only the messengers themselves. Its the same thing. I am far more apt to glean wisdom from people who aren't trying to trick me into believing them before evaluating what they say. That's just a rule I have.

I am not sure what place arrogance has. Why is it ever necessary to be arrogant? It is sometimes necessary to stand up for what we think or believe but we do not ever have to insist we are right and everyone else is wrong. Arrogance is an attitude of superiority.

Its not for everyone, I'll admit. There are times I have found that asserting my superiority is exactly what is needed. Its very situational. Like I said, a toolbox. I like to deal with bullies this way, for example. Making them feel small and stupid is a masterstroke. Arrogance works quite well for that. That is, provided you are actually superior anyway. In other words when someone uses the threat of violence as a means to an end, you have to be ready to get punched. Its on the table. In other words, it easy to call someone's bluff when you have better cards anyway.

Admitting a lack of knowledge and saying you don’t know something you don’t know is what I consider humility. That is why I said I considered you humble. That does not mean you are never arrogant. I was just going on what you said in a post.

I assure you my friends definitely laughed at me and humility in the same sentence.

I think we all like to be right because deep down we all want to know the truth, whether it is about God or anything else. We all just go about finding the truth differently.

Sure. I spend a lot of time making sure that is the case, however. I mean, I kind of just transformed 'I don't know' into 'I'm right'. That's dedication.

 

[ChristineM]

I have no need at all to prove this

Look within your own self and you will find the Mind that we are all created of, or do not do this. That is the choice of this life.

Peace to you ChristineM and all

Ehm. Within my own self is within my body

 

[Trailblazer]

“I plead ignorance about the Bible God since I was never a Christian and I do not know much of what is in the Bible. The Baha’i God does not expect everyone to believe in Him. He leaves it up to everyone to decide for themselves whether to believe in Him or not.”

Is not your god the abrahamic god? Or is there more than one?

No, there is only one God. It is not the abrahamic God; it is the God of ALL the religions.

When I said the Baha’i God, I meant the God that is described in the Baha’i Writings, as opposed to the God of the Bible. The nature of God never changes, but the way God is described in scriptures changes over time, in order to accommodate the increasing ability of humans to comprehend more complex concepts about God over time.

“I am a firm believer that it does not matter one iota how many believers this God has. An Almighty God does not need any believers at all. Only a wimpy god would need believers.”

In your opinion! Many have a different firm belief.

Everyone is entitled to whatever belief or non-belief that they hold.

“What kind of evidence would that be? What exactly would God do?

Evidence of he sort provided by the definition of evidence. What form that evidence would take does not matter so long as it can be independently validated. I.e. "believe me when i say god was in my room last night when i was alone" does not count as valid evidence. However if said night visitor left dna which could uniquely identify a god then the dna is evidence.

The existence of God cannot be independently validated.
I do not think you want to go around the evidence block again... I know I don’t.

“That is true, and that is one reason God will never show up on earth. God wants our faith. The other reason is that it is impossible for an immaterial Spirit to show up in a material world and be seen by anyone.”

Opinion again, apologetic opinion at that.

It is not an opinion, it is a belief. It is a belief that is supported by empirical evidence, unless you have seen God show up on earth.

By the process of deductive reasoning we can conclude that if God exists, God wants our faith, since God does not prove He exists.

 

[Trailblazer]

“My atheist friend on another forum [...] absolutely insists that if god exists god would want 100% of people in the world to believe in Him.”

But if God is real and wise, [he] already knows who's a believer and who's not, indeed if [he]'s omniscient, has known since before [he] made the universe. So I don't think I can agree with your friend.

Yes, God knows who will become a believer before they become one because God’s essential knowledge surrounds the realities of all things, before, during and after their existence.

I do not agree with my friend either, because God knows that not everyone is going to become a believer right now or any time soon, and God does not interfere with human free will choices to believe or not believe.

In the distant future, after the divine standard is unfurled, everyone will be a believer by choice but that is another subject.

“Abrahamic religious believers believe that God is an immaterial Spirit (whatever that means). So we believe that God is not a material being with objective existence.”

And that's really the crunch point. Since no objective test can distinguish the immaterial (or spiritual, or supernatural &c) from the imaginary, why is it not necessary to conclude that if God is immaterial then God is ipso facto imaginary?

That is what my atheist friend concludes, but it is not necessary to conclude that, not unless one thinks that only material things can be real. I do not conclude that because I believe that the immaterial is more real than the material.

“So from that we deduce that God is not “subject” to anything that you noted above. Actually, God is not subject to anything but Himself, since God is fully self-subsisting and fully self-sufficient.”

But that won't count for much if God is simply imaginary, will it?

Obviously not.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ehm. Within my own self is within my body

A lantern is not the light, it needs fuel and a wick to produce the light. The light can shine from us but it is lit externally. From this point one must consider there is 5 levels of Spirit.

I like this I found, it is quoted by Baha'u'llah from Ali.

"Dost thou reckon thyself only a puny form
When within thee the universe is folded?"

Consider what can result in the material world by the splitting of an Atom. Who could have imagined how much energy was contained within! Well it was those that know we are more than body, that have the greatest insight, like this ancient Persian mystic poem, also quoted by Baha'u'llah has recorded,

Split the atom’s heart, and lo!
Within it thou wilt find a sun.

That predated any Scientific understanding.

Peace be upon you always.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The soul animates the physical body while we are alive on earth, but it is a mystery no mind can ever hope to unravel, it is a sign of God.

I see from all the writings, that I have read, that we have to activate soul and mind by the Spirit of Faith to become who we really are on this earth. This is being born again.

Otherwise we are a lamp with fuel and a wick, but have not been ignited to fully give the light, to which we can be here and most likely are, in the spiritual worlds of God.

Peace be with you always.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The evidence is in religious scriptures, but we believers know that you atheists do not accept this as evidence; you only accept science as evidence... Too bad that science does not have the answers that religion has.

The source of thought is the soul which interacts with the brain while we are living in a physical body and allows us to think. The soul is not the mind; it is beyond the mind and beyond any human understanding. It is one of the signs of God, a mystery among His mysteries.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

After the physical body dies, the soul takes on another form made up of heavenly elements that exist in the spiritual world, and the thought process continues for eternity.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

So nothing reliable.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Your opinion of course

Sadly like a creationist, when a person has no evidence deny evidence presented by the other side.

 

[Trailblazer]

There are more and better ways than a single messenger. Sorry but you are repeating dogma.

Okay then, please tell me what some of those “better ways” are and explain why they are better and how they would accomplish what Messengers accomplish.

The text you reference contained the goal otherwise the text wouldn't exist.

I do not know what text you are referring to.
Nothing I have cited states that it was God’s Goal to get the message out to all of humanity right away.

Again you are talking dogma. People having a general belief in God does not mean every belief is due to a messenger of God as a true messenger. Obvious a number of religions do not accept your messenger, Islams, Jesus, etc, etc.

Call it whatever you want to call it, all religions have a founder of some kind. They do not all believe the same things about their founder, but they believe in God because of their religion that has a founder.

Again you are talking dogma. Primitive belief systems started well before any history record of a specific figure.

I am talking history. According to my religion, God has sent Prophets since the dawn of human history. Just because we have no records of those Prophets or their religions does not mean that did not exist.

“And now regarding thy question, “How is it that no records are to be found concerning the Prophets that have preceded Adam, the Father of Mankind, or of the kings that lived in the days of those Prophets?” Know thou that the absence of any reference to them is no proof that they did not actually exist. That no records concerning them are now available, should be attributed to their extreme remoteness, as well as to the vast changes which the earth hath undergone since their time.

Moreover such forms and modes of writing as are now current amongst men were unknown to the generations that were before Adam. There was even a time when men were wholly ignorant of the art of writing, and had adopted a system entirely different from the one which they now use. For a proper exposition of this an elaborate explanation would be required.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 172-173

Or it could be due to people not believing the claims of the next messenger, people do not believe X is a messenger at all but a fraud.

That is exactly what it is; the people of the older religions believe that the new Messenger is a false prophet (fraud).

“If communication is not verbal or text, what would it be?”

If I started spouting verses from a religion I do not know that would be a form of communication from God to me. However in general communication between humans can include sign language, emotions, facial expressions, body language, etc.

But how would any of those convey all the information that was revealed by a Messenger like Baha’u’llah, who wrote over 15.000 Tablets?

“Why would it be left up to me how an omnipotent God chose to communicate?”

No no. "It's up to you" was about "another subject I can explain later if you are interested." I was saying it is your choice to explain not your choice regarding God's method of communication.

Explain what?

 

[MonkeyFire]

I'll give you a hint, faith is like love.

 

[Trailblazer]

I see from all the writings, that I have read, that we have to activate soul and mind by the Spirit of Faith to become who we really are on this earth. This is being born again.

Otherwise we are a lamp with fuel and a wick, but have not been ignited to fully give the light, to which we can be here and most likely are, in the spiritual worlds of God.

That is true.

The best way to discover Truth is through the mind assisted by the spirit of faith. Anything else such as emotion can lead us astray. God gave us a mind to use for reasoning, but unless it is assisted by the spirit of faith, cannot become acquainted with the divine mysteries.

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.

But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit and is its essential quality, as the sun’s rays are the essential necessity of the sun.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 208-209

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So nothing reliable.

The senses are most unreliable. Many scientific experiments will show us how easily we are fooled by the material senses.

Things of the spirit are shown in pure deeds. The greatest of all men are those that Love all Humanity and show it in service are 100% honest and trustworthy. This is the proof of the Spirit within us.

Peace be upon you

 

[SalixIncendium]

Sadly like a creationist, when a person has no evidence deny evidence presented by the other side.

Just out of curiosity, who are you thinking has denied the evidence you presented?

 

[Trailblazer]

So nothing reliable.

Nothing that is reliable TO YOU.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'll give you a hint, faith is like love.

Or Faith is a result of Love.

Peace be with you and all.

 

[Trailblazer]

Or Faith is a result of Love.

Or Love is a result of Faith.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nothing that is reliable TO YOU.

To be reliable it has to support a claim regardless of who reads it. Most Christians will not accept your evidence, nor will most Muslims or most members of any religion other than yours.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Just out of curiosity, who are you thinking has denied the evidence you presented?

You seemed to . But perhaps you may want to refine your position.

 

[SalixIncendium]

You seemed to . But perhaps you may want to refine your position.

If a theory is presented by the scientific community that is in conflict with my worldview, I will always adjust my worldview to align with that scientific theory.

That said, there has been nothing substantial enough that has been presented by the scientific community that would alter my worldview as it pertains to the source of consciousness.

 

[Trailblazer]

“There is nothing logical about his position. It is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in my entire life, but of course I know something about God, so that is how I know it is ridiculous.”

Wow... his claiming that he knows all about his imaginary god is RIDICULOUS... and the reason you KNOW it's ridiculous is because YOU know all about YOUR imaginary god. Do you honestly not see the hypocrisy in such a statement? Can't you see that this atheist is attempting to point out how ridiculous YOUR position is?

I have a LOGICAL REASON to believe what I do. I have a religion that has scriptures that came from the real God to a real Messenger...
By contrast, all he has is his imagination and his big ego

“The salient difference is that we religious believers have a religion to base our beliefs upon. This atheist just makes them up in his head, having no way to know anything about what a real God would do or what a real God wants. You atheists can discount what we religionists have but we have something to base our beliefs upon other than a “personal opinion” of what god would do if god were real.”

The only salient difference that I see is that this atheist admits that he just makes stuff up, while you insist that stuff other people made up is actually real. And in truth, the way that many theist choose to 'interpret' the stuff that other people made up means that the 'truths' they ascertain from these writings is most often no different from their personal opinion. Otherwise you wouldn't have so many theist who claim that god can do ANYTHING, right? Which YOU claim is ridiculous, based upon YOUR personal opinion.

The salient difference is that he has absolutely no evidence to back up his personal opinions. By contrast, I have a boatload of evidence to back up the claims of my religion.

NONE of what I believe is my personal opinion. Sure I might have a personal opinion about the meaning of my scriptures but the scriptures themselves are not based upon a personal opinion.

The caveat is that all theists do not have the latest revelation from God, so what they believe God can do is based upon old scriptures that have since been superseded by new scriptures. It is now been made perfectly clear that God cannot do anything and why God cannot do anything; that was made clear my Muhammad, and now it has been made even clearer by Baha’u’llah.

“There is no evidence whatsoever and no logical reason to think God is going suddenly change the way He has communicated throughout human history – Messengers.”

There is no evidence whatsoever and no logical reason to think that any god exists or that this god has ever used messengers to communicate with humans at any time in history.

There is scads of evidence that God has used Messengers and that evidence is contained in the scriptures revealed by the various Messengers of God, as well as what we know about their lives and the history of their religions, as well as how that have affected the course of human history.

“What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 273

So the only logical course of action is to remain skeptical and withhold belief in any god(s) UNTIL verifiable evidence for god's existence is presented.

That might seem logical to you, but it is only logical if you are willing to forgo belief in God, since there will never be any verifiable evidence of God’s existence. We have plenty of evidence but God does not want to be verified. If He did, He would have verified Himself by now.