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Questions about Norse Religion

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
1. How do we separate the roman influence and Christian influence on the poetic and prose Eddas? The Norse societies were well aware of the Roman influence and saw the increasing influence of Christianity long before the religion was set into words. The Norse pantheon seems to have so much in common the Roman Pantheon, interaction and changes or the way they both developed independently?

2. Votive deposit changed in their nature from natural places to centralized locations by the year 600 AD. This change indicates a change in the practices of the Norse religion at a time of influence from the rest of Europe that was changing. How would this influence the religion?
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
It's more a problem of Christian influence. But really, it doesn't matter; too many treat the Eddas as comparable to the Bible, but they're not; they're the version of the oral stories that Snorri and Saemund heard and wrote down, but in reality there were as many version of the tales as there were tribes. Retellings with differences and changes. Despite this the Poetic is a bit more reliable than the Prose in that the Prose Edda is literally just Snorri's hand at trying to tell "his version" of the myths. It's basically fanfiction.

So far as similarities to the Roman pantheon, not really. Not really at all, in fact. The Norse pantheon is far less categorized and Archetyped, and many gods and goddesses (and wights and spirits) can be turned to for the same issue, whereas with the Romans it's much more "This god for X, this goddess for Y".

As far as practices go, again these differed depending on region and tribe.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
It's more a problem of Christian influence. But really, it doesn't matter; too many treat the Eddas as comparable to the Bible, but they're not; they're the version of the oral stories that Snorri and Saemund heard and wrote down, but in reality there were as many version of the tales as there were tribes. Retellings with differences and changes. Despite this the Poetic is a bit more reliable than the Prose in that the Prose Edda is literally just Snorri's hand at trying to tell "his version" of the myths. It's basically fanfiction.

So far as similarities to the Roman pantheon, not really. Not really at all, in fact. The Norse pantheon is far less categorized and Archetyped, and many gods and goddesses (and wights and spirits) can be turned to for the same issue, whereas with the Romans it's much more "This god for X, this goddess for Y".

As far as practices go, again these differed depending on region and tribe.
Even the poetic Eddas do not give us much on the other aspects of Norse religion including the elves, land spirits and the relationships to the land. I think the change in votive depositions indicates a change in Norse rituals from the land to a social center. This would be a change in the perception and ritual activity towards the gods and goddesses.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
For stuff relating to the alfar and various vaettir, one must look at folk belief accounts of the time, some surviving superstitions (especially for the alfar) and the Sagas.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
For stuff relating to the alfar and various vaettir, one must look at folk belief accounts of the time, some surviving superstitions (especially for the alfar) and the Sagas.

Interesting in that that is similar to Celtic beliefs where the non-god/goddess components are better described in folklore. Are there any sources you recommend?

How do you interpret the change in votive practices from natural areas to central and how that would affect perception of Norse religion?

There is a tendency as collective societies increase in number to shift towards more humanized deities with time and more structured relations with deities with increased hierarchy development in societies. Is this reflected in Norse religions as well?

How much similarity is there between the Norse religion and the neighboring Celtic, Sami and Finnish religions?
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Interesting in that that is similar to Celtic beliefs where the non-god/goddess components are better described in folklore. Are there any sources you recommend?
The best that I've found are folktales of Scandinavia, as well as the Sagas.

How do you interpret the change in votive practices from natural areas to central and how that would affect perception of Norse religion?
I'm not sure what you're asking here.

There is a tendency as collective societies increase in number to shift towards more humanized deities with time and more structured relations with deities with increased hierarchy development in societies. Is this reflected in Norse religions as well?
I couldn't say how it developed along with the society; that'd be a better question for historians and anthropologists. Jackson Crawford and Arith Harger are good bets; they may have some answers on their YouTube channels.

How much similarity is there between the Norse religion and the neighboring Celtic, Sami and Finnish religions?
There's a little overlap here and there, as well as with the Slavic native faiths, but you won't really find direct parallels like Rome tries for.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
How much similarity is there between the Norse religion and the neighboring Celtic, Sami and Finnish religions?
Well, they all had prominent thunder deities who tended to wield some sort of weapon (the Slavs did, too) and shamanism was a a part of their cultures (except for the Celts, as I'm less informed about that).
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Aye, I don't think Shamanism reached as far south as the Celtic nations. It was fairly rare in Scandinavia, even, much more common among the Saami.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Aye, I don't think Shamanism reached as far south as the Celtic nations. It was fairly rare in Scandinavia, even, much more common among the Saami.


That statement is highly dependent on how you define shamanism which has been poorly defined so far. I am not fond of the term but it has persisted in research as a term for the representation of religious rituals and patterns dealing with the non-human world. An example of this definition is in


The Realities of Witchcraft and Popular Magic in Early Modern Europe: Culture, Cognition and Everyday Life, Palgrave Macmillan, Hampshire, 2008: 201-202, 211 by Edward Bever

Gives us this perspective

“Shaman” can be reserved for a person who engages in practices involving the alteration of consciousness to perceive and interact with spirits to gain knowledge or power inaccessible in normal waking consciousness,

“shamanic” used to refer to such practices. In contrast, “Shamanist” can be used for someone who engages in other deliberate manipulations of consciousness to access unconscious information and skills not ordinarily accessible in waking consciousness, practices that do involve deliberately manipulating consciousness, their own or someone else’s, but do not generate the experience of perceiving spirits

“shamanistic” can be used to refer to such manipulations. Since both variants of shamanism involve deliberate actions, they can be distinguished as “shamanic practices” or “shamanistic practices,” with the difference being whether they involve perception of spirits...”

In the following article Klein evaluates shamanism in Norse religion.

"Seiðr & Shamans: Defining the Myth of Ritual Specialists in pre-Christian Scandinavia" by Sebastian Klein

He gives this perspective of shamanism

“…traits of a shaman. Often, a shaman is responsible for engaging with forces deemed responsible for causing problems – when relationships are scuttled, health is threatened, food is low or war is on the horizon a shaman steps up to “reestablish an orderly, healthy, and viable cosmos.” 10 There are many ways the shaman can achieve this, such as performing vision quests, seeking spirits, prophesy, sorcery and magic, and by magic I will borrow the definition provided by anthropologists Victor Turner and Pascal Boyer as a “trans human controlling power that can either be personal or impersonal.”

He gives several examples

1. ...law code of Magnús Hákonarson forbids the practice of magic use

“And these things belong to the wrong pagan belief: Charms and magic and what some call troll-riding, soothsaying and the belief in spirits of the land that dwell in the hills, barrows or lakes. So is (forbidden) to sit and predict the fates; and those who renounce God and the holy church as to find, in a barrow or in other ways, power and wisdom; as to those who try to raise the dead and those who dwell within barrows.”"

2. "The Icelandic family sagas (Islendingasögur) are so rife with references to the various seeresses, prophets and sorcerers, many of whom exhibit remarkable traits that could easily be interpreted as shamanic, and much of the archeological remains within graves and barrows that have been found have also been interpreted as belonging to shamanic ritual specialists."

3. He sits Odin in particular as a god exhibiting Shamanistic practices.

In this respect Celtic religion also shows the same shamanistic patterns very closely resembling Norse religion. To me this is not surprising at all given the significant overlap of theses adjacent cultures.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Whose rightful property?
The people of Arctic Eurasia. But I said what it (shamanism) rightfully and properly is. It is not the same thing as Indigenous American "medicine man" practices.
It is not the same as witch doctors, sangomas, mungoma, Jhākri, or n'anga. They are those, and shaman are shaman.

I agree poor choice of words but not necessarily poor anthropology.
It absolutely is. The only reason people call anything moderately resembling a "medicine man" or "witch doctor" a "shaman" is because Western anthropologists uncaringly applied it to whatever culture they came across with no regard for individual cultures. They appropriated a term and overused it to the point that it's in danger of not meaning anything.

What word do you use in its place? Do you disagree with the definitions and evidence provided?
That depends on the culture. And yes, I obviously disagree with the "definitions" given in that they perpetuate the problem.

What about animism in Norse and Celtic religion?
That's animism. Shamanism may be a practice of cultures that are also animistic (Saami, Tungusic, Eurasian arctic,) but that does not make all forms of animism shamanism.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
The people of Arctic Eurasia. But I said what it (shamanism) rightfully and properly is. It is not the same thing as Indigenous American "medicine man" practices.
It is not the same as witch doctors, sangomas, mungoma, Jhākri, or n'anga. They are those, and shaman are shaman.

Ok the term really should only apply to the Tungusic- and Samoyedic-speaking Indigenous peoples of Siberia and The Sami probably should not be included.

Now for comparative discussion between Norse, Germanic and Celtic groups will this be a description for these northern pagan groups in close contact?

The collection of rituals and activities including altered conscious states responsible for engaging with forces of the natural and supernatural such as performing vision quests, communicating with spirits, journeying into the other world, shape shifting prophesy, sorcery and magic.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
That's animism. Shamanism may be a practice of cultures that are also animistic (Saami, Tungusic, Eurasian arctic,) but that does not make all forms of animism shamanism.
I was not combining animiam with shamanism but rather asking if Norse and Celtic religious practices shared similar animistic aspects.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Ok the term really should only apply to the Tungusic- and Samoyedic-speaking Indigenous peoples of Siberia and The Sami probably should not be included.
They are, as they were encountered indigenously using saman as a term and practice matching - not just similar, but matching - that of the Tungusic people.

Now for comparative discussion between Norse, Germanic and Celtic groups will this be a description for these northern pagan groups in close contact?
Probably not, but it's hard to say as nothing survived. Practices like seidr or spacraft, or the prophecies of volvur aren't the same thing and cannot accurately be compared.

The collection of rituals and activities including altered conscious states responsible for engaging with forces of the natural and supernatural such as performing vision quests, communicating with spirits, journeying into the other world, shape shifting prophesy, sorcery and magic.
Shamanism has nothing to do with prophecy, sorcery, or "magic". Other practices (for example, sangomas,) may be similar, but we don't call a tomato an apple just because they're both fruits and red.

I was not combining animiam with shamanism but rather asking if Norse and Celtic religious practices shared similar animistic aspects.
I'm not sure, but likely similar in some aspects.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
They are, as they were encountered indigenously using saman as a term and practice matching - not just similar, but matching - that of the Tungusic people.

No that is interesting since the Sami of Scandinavia are related to other northern Europeans genetically and linguistically related to the Finns who are also genetically related to Northern Europeans. Do you know where the connection to the Tungusic people came from?


Probably not, but it's hard to say as nothing survived. Practices like seidr or spacraft, or the prophecies of volvur aren't the same thing and cannot accurately be compared.
Can you help me understand the reason they cannot be compared?



Shamanism has nothing to do with prophecy, sorcery, or "magic". Other practices (for example, sangomas,) may be similar, but we don't call a tomato an apple just because they're both fruits and red.

The practices I listed were not in reference to Shamanism which we both agree is a bad term but rather the list was intended to look at the similarities or differences between the Celtic religion and Norse religion. I am more familiar with Celtic religion and thought the comparison might help me understand Norse religion better.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Do you know where the connection to the Tungusic people came from?
I couldn't say for sure. Only that the term saman was encountered by anthropologists in the 17th Century being used by Tungusic and Samoyedic speaking peoples spanning from Siberia to Arctic Scandinavia.

Can you help me understand the reason they cannot be compared?
Seiðr (meaning yarn or string) is a form of Norse divination using spindles and weaving, mirroring the actions of the Norns to discern What Is To Be. Spádom is similar, but from what I understand is more of an over-arching "act of prophecy". In either and both cases, shamanism has nothing to do with telling the future, and neither seiðr nor spádom deal with healing through influence of the spirits.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
I couldn't say for sure. Only that the term saman was encountered by anthropologists in the 17th Century being used by Tungusic and Samoyedic speaking peoples spanning from Siberia to Arctic Scandinavia.


Seiðr (meaning yarn or string) is a form of Norse divination using spindles and weaving, mirroring the actions of the Norns to discern What Is To Be. Spádom is similar, but from what I understand is more of an over-arching "act of prophecy". In either and both cases, shamanism has nothing to do with telling the future, and neither seiðr nor spádom deal with healing through influence of the spirits.

I really appreciate the input. I am interested in how the northern pagan religions may have changed with the changing social patterns and increasing influences of the roman expansion and then the later Christian influence. I mentioned the change in votive practices from natural areas to community areas because there is at least some thought that this represented a change in the ritual practice and the relationship to the deities and other religious elements. Did not know if anyone new more about this aspect.

My interest in comparison of Celtic to Norse is because I am much more familiar with Celtic religion and by comparison hope that will help me learn more about Norse religion. Given the proximity of the two groups there must have been overlap with some shared aspects of religion.

I mentioned the genetics of the Sami people because one possible explanation to similarity of their religious practices and the Tungusic is that they were not connected but the overall practice of "shamanistic" practices was more wide spread with the Sami people retaining those practices while others in the northern European area shifted away. Just some ideas for thought but anything you can contribute is very much appreciated.
 
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