Questions about Christianity and Mormonism

[Jane.Doe]

the account about the creation of the first man shows that he was brought to life by God. He was created from the earth, lifeless until God brought him to life. The problem is that the meaning of the word 'spirit' varies and is often misused by most religions and in the bible the human spirit is nothing more then the life we enjoy while we are alive. At Ecclesiates 3:10 for there is an outcome* for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome.+ As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit.+ So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile.
When we are dead, that spirit is also dead. We can see from the account about Adams creation in Genesis that Adam was not immortal...that he was not alive prior to his creation and that staying alive depended on obedience.

Gen 2:17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die
Katzpur, tell me this.... if God warned Adam that disobedience would be punished by death, how could death have been a punishment if Adam was still going to live as a spirit?

Ah, thank you for sharing your view. I am familiar with the JW soul sleep doctrine.

As for LDS Christian doctrine: your spirit (~"ghost") and your physical body are two different things. Before a person is physically born, their spirit lives with God (Jerimiah 1:5 is believed literally). When they are born, a their spirit enters their body. When they physically die, the spirit then leaves the body & the two are separated again, but only for a time. When the the resurrection comes, body & spirit will be reunited once again, never again to be separated, and now glorified.

As for Adam & death: Adam did die. Literally in that his physical body died, and metaphorically in that he was cut off from God. It is through Christ's atonement that we can physically live again (resurrection of the body) & metaphorically live again (cleaned from our sins and united with Him).

 

[John D. Brey]

HI John,
This verse is the one used by predistinationists as evidence for this idea and i can see why that is the case when looking at this one verse alone.

However, Jesus spoke about the 'founding of the world' in Luke 11 and according to his words, the 'founding of the world' begins, not with Adam and Eve, but with Able.
Vs 20 That is why the wisdom of God also said: ‘I will send prophets and apostles to them, and they will kill and persecute some of them,+ 50 so that the blood of all the prophets spilled from the founding of the world may be charged against* this generation,+ 51 from the blood of Abel+ down to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah, who was killed between the altar and the house.’+ Yes, I tell you, it will be charged against* this generation.

We could ask how the 'founding of the world' could begin with Able and not Adam or Eve or the older brother Cain. The conclusion given by the Watchtower Bible and Tract society is this

• 
  
  
  • founding of the world: The Greek word for “founding” is rendered “to conceive” at Heb 11:11, where it is used with “offspring.” Here used in the expression “founding of the world,” it apparently refers to the birth of children to Adam and Eve. Jesus associates “the founding of the world” with Abel, evidently the first redeemable human of the world of mankind whose name had been written in the scroll of life “from the founding of the world.”—Lu 11:51; Re 17:8; see study note on Mt 25:34.

So i dont believe Eph 1:4 is claiming all humans had a pre existence....rather its a statement by Paul affirming the fact that God had a plan to redeem Adam and Eves offspring from the consequences of sin and death and that plan begins with righteous Able who was the first man to show himself worthy of salvation. From him onward the plan to redeem fallan mankind was firmly established.

As previously noted, everything is subject to interpretation. So, as some interpret and misinterpret Joseph Smith, so too they interpret and misinterpret the scripture.

We all have an interpretive prism. We all have some level of knowledge we use to interpret scripture. For instance the word interpreted "founding of the world" --- katabole ---- means, more literally interpreted, "casting down," as in seeds being cast down to the earth from a farmer who has tilled the soil.

In context, katabole, is probably referring to Genesis 3:23:

Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.​

Prior to the Fall, there was no tilling the ground, no casting down seeds into the tilled ground, no rain. In Eden a mist came up from the earth to water the garden. And the seeds of Eden, like the seed in Mary, was already there prior to any tilling by means of a spade or a phallus (which are both described by the same word in some ancient languages).

When Paul says we were in Christ before the katabole (casting down of the seeds of the world), he could be implying that we are born the first time from the tilling of the soil of our mother's body (post-Eden procreation), but that we are born-again as seeds that were already in Christ prior to the original sin and the casting down of the world associated with that sin.



John

 

[Katzpur]

the account about the creation of the first man shows that he was brought to life by God. He was created from the earth, lifeless until God brought him to life. The problem is that the meaning of the word 'spirit' varies and is often misused by most religions and in the bible the human spirit is nothing more then the life we enjoy while we are alive. At Ecclesiates 3:10 for there is an outcome* for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome.+ As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit.+ So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile.
When we are dead, that spirit is also dead. We can see from the account about Adams creation in Genesis that Adam was not immortal...that he was not alive prior to his creation and that staying alive depended on obedience.

Gen 2:17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die
Katzpur, tell me this.... if God warned Adam that disobedience would be punished by death, how could death have been a punishment if Adam was still going to live as a spirit?

Bree, despite the fact that I honestly think any discussion on this topic between us is only going to end up going around in circles with nothing ever being resolved, I guess I'll take a shot at responding anyway. The problem is that we have so little common ground when it comes to this issue. According to my belief, Adam died when his spirit left his body. That's what happens to each of us when we die. It's also what happened to Jesus when He died. Just before He did, He commended His spirit into His Father's hands. I can't think of a thing God would want with a dead spirit or how the spirit would even go about leaving the body and returning to God in the first place if it was, in fact, dead. So yes, I believe that the spirit is immortal and that the body, once the life-giving spirit leaves it, dies.

 

[Bree]

Bree, despite the fact that I honestly think any discussion on this topic between us is only going to end up going around in circles with nothing ever being resolved, I guess I'll take a shot at responding anyway. The problem is that we have so little common ground when it comes to this issue. According to my belief, Adam died when his spirit left his body. That's what happens to each of us when we die. It's also what happened to Jesus when He died. Just before He did, He commended His spirit into His Father's hands. I can't think of a thing God would want with a dead spirit or how the spirit would even go about leaving the body and returning to God in the first place if it was, in fact, dead. So yes, I believe that the spirit is immortal and that the body, once the life-giving spirit leaves it, dies.

Eccl 3:19
for there is an outcome* for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome.+ As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit.+ So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile.
.. 21 Who really knows whether the spirit of humans ascends upward, and whether the spirit of animals descends down to the earth?

Why would God have this recorded in the bible?

 

[Firelight]

Actually Mohammad did believe in Jesus as a greater prophet then Abraham, Noah, and Moses. But that doesnt mean that he followed the teachings of Jesus and followed him.
The Koran says of Jesus: “His name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter.” (Sura 3:45) “The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam.” (Sura 3:59)
To be a christian means to follow Christ in his life course, teachings and conduct. If Mohammad believed that Jesus was a prophet and equal to Adam, then why not follow him? Why create a new religion?
New religions draw people away from following Jesus, they dont bring them to follow Jesus.

As I said, Mohammad didn’t believe that Jesus is Savior, therefore, he was not Christian or claimed to be so.

A prophet is not the same as Savior. We would have many Saviors if that were true, but there is only one Savior, Jesus Christ. Do you believe a prophet and Savior are the same?

Following the commandments and teachings of Jesus is part of being Christian, but that is not what puts the Christ into Christian. A Christian, first and foremost, believes or accepts Jesus as their Savior. No one else came into the world and died on the cross to save us from our sins, only Jesus Christ did. No one else could’ve done it for us.

How do you know that new religions “draw people away from Jesus?” Are you aware of all new religions and what they teach?

 

[Firelight]

Gen 2:17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die
Katzpur, tell me this.... if God warned Adam that disobedience would be punished by death, how could death have been a punishment if Adam was still going to live as a spirit?

Why do you consider death to be a punishment in regards to this scripture? The scripture doesn’t say it’s a punishment. I understand it as a consequence.

 

[Jane.Doe]

Eccl 3:19
for there is an outcome* for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome.+ As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit.+ So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile.
.. 21 Who really knows whether the spirit of humans ascends upward, and whether the spirit of animals descends down to the earth?

Why would God have this recorded in the bible?

@Bree, both Katzper and I took the time to explain our beliefs to you, and you ignored both responses. It gives the STRONG impression that you don't care what she or I say, and instead we are just targets of a proselytization script you're reciting. It's incredibly disrespectful.

 

[Katzpur]

Eccl 3:19
for there is an outcome* for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome.+ As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit.+ So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile.
.. 21 Who really knows whether the spirit of humans ascends upward, and whether the spirit of animals descends down to the earth?

Why would God have this recorded in the bible?

What in the world does this have to do with our conversation?

 

[Katzpur]

Why do you consider death to be a punishment in regards to this scripture? The scripture doesn’t say it’s a punishment. I understand it as a consequence.

I agree. It absolutely was not a punishment. It was a consequence that was part of a plan that would ultimately be for man's good. I believe everything in the Garden of Eden unfolded exactly as God knew it would and as it had to in order that His Plan be put into action.

 

[idea]

Do you believe a prophet and Savior are the same?

Concerning prophets and saviors - here are some Mormon quotes to ponder:

"“Come on! ye prosecutors! Ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! For I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.” https://www.mrm.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/scan0053.pdf

God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don’t like it, you must lump it” (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 363).

“God is my ‘right hand man’” (Times and Seasons 4:375).

Quotes by Brigham Young (who BYU is founded after)

“If we can pass the sentinel Joseph the Prophet, we shall go into the celestial kingdom, and not a man can injure us. If he says, ‘God bless you, come along here;’ if we will live so that Joseph will justify us, and say, ‘Here am I, brethren,’ we shall pass every sentinel; there will be no danger but that we will pass into the celestial kingdom” (March 8, 1857, Journal of Discourses 4:271)

Young taught that a person had to accept Smith as a prophet or be at risk of being “damned”:

“I know that Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God, that this is the Gospel of salvation, and if you do not believe it you will be damned, every one of you” (March 29, 1857, Journal of Discourses 4:298).

In temple recommend interviews, followers of the Mormon church must accept the prophet, and have faith in the prophet, and the prophet is the one who lets them into heaven.

“Whosoever confesseth that Joseph Smith was sent of God to reveal the holy Gospel to the children of men, and lay the foundation for gathering Israel, and building up the Kingdom of God on the earth, that spirit is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Antichrist, no matter whether it is found in a pulpit or on a throne” (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 435).

They sing hymns praising Joseph Smtih - see "Praise to the Man" ← not praise to Jesus, praise to Joseph Smith. Kids sing "Follow the Prophet".

“We stand in reverence before him. He is the great prophet of this dispensation. He stands as the head of this great and mighty work which is spreading across the earth. He is our prophet, our revelator, our seer, our friend. Let us not forget him. Let not his memory be forgotten in the celebration of Christmas. God be thanked for the Prophet Joseph” (“Joseph Smith: Restorer of Truth,” Ensign, December 2003, pp. 18-19).

 

[Firelight]

Concerning prophets and saviors - here are some Mormon quotes to ponder:

“Saviors[?]” There is only one Savior.

Your quotes are in support of Joseph Smith, as a prophet. There are no quotes stating that Joseph Smith is the Savior, or that a prophet is the same as Savior, which is what my question is about. Therefore, my understanding that Mormons are Christians remains unchanged.

 

[Watchmen]

“Saviors[?]” There is only one Savior.

Your quotes are in support of Joseph Smith, as a prophet. There are no quotes stating that Joseph Smith is the Savior, or that a prophet is the same as Savior, which is what my question is about. Therefore, my understanding that Mormons are Christians remains unchanged.

You might want to reread those quotes. Seem he’s on a pedestal—not just a “prophet.”

 

[Katzpur]

“Saviors[?]” There is only one Savior.

Your quotes are in support of Joseph Smith, as a prophet. There are no quotes stating that Joseph Smith is the Savior, or that a prophet is the same as Savior, which is what my question is about. Therefore, my understanding that Mormons are Christians remains unchanged.

@Firelight, just so that you know (in case you hadn't figured it out already), both idea and Watchmen are former Mormons. You might want to keep that in mind while reading their posts. Because there is so much material out there that is non-canonical, the LDS Church put out the following statement:

• Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted. Source: Approaching Mormon Doctrine

I no longer respond to either of their posts, because I'm just at the point in my life where I no longer feel compelled to address hateful posts. But if you ever read anything they say and would like a second opinion on it, please feel free to ask me to weigh in.

And just for the record, Mormons believe that there is only one Savior -- Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God.

 

[idea]

The majority of Mormons are "inactive", and huge numbers leave for good reason. Most who have left spent years and years ignoring, rationalizing, and "kicking against the pricks". We have read more, studied more, spent more time in scriptures than most "cultural" members who ignore church teaching and are just there for family/traditions sake.

Mormons believe only those who believe in Joseph Smith go to heaven. It is part of temple covenants, part of baptismal covenants, in hymns. It is the church of Joseph Smith, not the church of Jesus.


DEIFICATION OF SMITH...
“Who will honor the name of Joseph Smith and accept the gospel restored through his instrumentality?
“We answer: The same people who would have believed the words of the Lord Jesus and the ancient Apostles and prophets had they lived in their day.
“If you believe the words of Joseph Smith, you would have believed what Jesus and the ancients said.
“If you reject Joseph Smith and his message, you would have rejected Peter and Paul and their message.”
Bruce R. McConkie, “Who Hath Believed Our Report?” Ensign Magazine (Salt Lake City, UT: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, November 1981), 48.
Fact 0755 | Defector of the Faith

 

[Firelight]

FYI Watchmen, I told you a while ago that I was placing you on ignore. I cannot see anything you post and I do not receive notifications when you address me.

 

[idea]

FYI Watchmen, I told you a while ago that I was placing you on ignore. I cannot see anything you post and I do not receive notifications when you address me.

I'm not sure if either you or Katz has read about the B.I.T E. model? Control of behavior, control of information, control of thought, control of emotions?

Don't talk to or read information from those who leave falls under information control.

I talk to students who withdraw from my class, I read my rate my professor reviews and want to know how I can improve. The ego is hurt by criticism, it hurts when anyone has trouble in class, but I do believe - and follow those beliefs - that it is better to hear and talk through it, than "ex-communicate - stop communicating, ignore, close ears, turn away from those who are hurting.

It is a bit like a divorce, to leave a religious group - to find who you made covenants with is dishonest, adulterous, a child molester who lied about who they are and what their history is.... Only a few people are brave enough to see why people leave. Change is scary.

I was once a member who loved the church too - who read scriptures every day, attended the temple, served in leadership, sacrificed career advancement, who had powerful "spiritual experiences" (I now know was "elevation", not from God). It took my children being abused by a bishopric member, then connecting with so many other abuse victims, to finally - for the welfare of my family - to read church history and understand who Joseph Smith was, who Warren Jeffs is, how people like that get a following, where the Mormon scriptures and temple ceremonies actually came from, what "elevation" and "the spirit" felt by so many other religious groups actually is.

It is hard to leave, and there are good things in all groups. I share my pain to protect others from being trapped in what I now see as a cult. So many good people trapped in so many different cults... It is easy to to see others in a cult, but difficult to realize the same things in your own group. They really did manipulate my mind, kept me from information... Grooming is the friendliest most dangerous horrific experience.... realizing I sustained the person who molested my kids in front of my kids??? It is a special kind of hell - betrayal trauma - to be taken advantage of and used by an authority figures, by people who claim to be led by God, an insanity to actually think you or they are led by God, by someone who claims they love and care for you, by someone you depended on for "saving ordinances", the belief I had no authority as a woman - breaking free of the belief others had authority over me.. l am learning to take responsibility myself- to reclaim career, to protect... to find new healthy honest beliefs... a bird does not fear a tree branch breaking- I found my wings.

Others who are leaving any group like this - you have to open up your own wings, discover your own inner strength, to fly away from it all.

There is beauty on the other side.

 

[Watchmen]

@Firelight, just so that you know (in case you hadn't figured it out already), both idea and Watchmen are former Mormons. You might want to keep that in mind while reading their posts. Because there is so much material out there that is non-canonical, the LDS Church put out the following statement:

• Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted. Source: Approaching Mormon Doctrine

I no longer respond to either of their posts, because I'm just at the point in my life where I no longer feel compelled to address hateful posts. But if you ever read anything they say and would like a second opinion on it, please feel free to ask me to weigh in.

And just for the record, Mormons believe that there is only one Savior -- Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God.

My posts aren’t hateful, Katz. They’re educational.

 

[Watchmen]

Hi Firelight. Ignore me if you will, but you will be depriving yourself of an opportunity to hear from someone who knows the Mormon Church inside and out and chose to leave.

I am mentally happier, physically healthier, have better relationships with friends and family, have been more successful professionally, and have an incredible sense of joy and freedom. You can have that too.

 

[TreeOfLife]

The majority of Mormons are "inactive", and huge numbers leave for good reason. Most who have left spent years and years ignoring, rationalizing, and "kicking against the pricks". We have read more, studied more, spent more time in scriptures than most "cultural" members who ignore church teaching and are just there for family/traditions sake.

Mormons believe only those who believe in Joseph Smith go to heaven. It is part of temple covenants, part of baptismal covenants, in hymns. It is the church of Joseph Smith, not the church of Jesus.


DEIFICATION OF SMITH...
“Who will honor the name of Joseph Smith and accept the gospel restored through his instrumentality?
“We answer: The same people who would have believed the words of the Lord Jesus and the ancient Apostles and prophets had they lived in their day.
“If you believe the words of Joseph Smith, you would have believed what Jesus and the ancients said.
“If you reject Joseph Smith and his message, you would have rejected Peter and Paul and their message.”
Bruce R. McConkie, “Who Hath Believed Our Report?” Ensign Magazine (Salt Lake City, UT: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, November 1981), 48.
Fact 0755 | Defector of the Faith

True most mormons are inactive. But it is the same at all Christian denominations. Look at UMC this week. Barely more that 170 churches out of 35000 believe that LGBT is a big enough sin to leave for.

I would say that almost all mainstream denominations are faltering. Its time to wake up all churches with the power and the Dominion that the atonement gave use.

Go and bring signs and wonders to the earth and you will have members

 

[idea]

True most mormons are inactive. But it is the same at all Christian denominations. Look at UMC this week. Barely more that 170 churches out of 35000 believe that LGBT is a big enough sin to leave for.

I would say that almost all mainstream denominations are faltering. Its time to wake up all churches with the power and the Dominion that the atonement gave use.

Go and bring signs and wonders to the earth and you will have members

I would say all organized religious groups, all great and spacious buildings, all heirarchies will be pulled down.

No borrowed light, self-reliance