Questions about Christianity and Mormonism

[Watchmen]

Let me spell it out for you:

“Christ” is in “Christ”ian.

No one else is there.

Not that simple. If I believe in a green leprechaun and call him “Christ,” am I Christian?

 

[Watchmen]

I have no idea as to how that example proves that I've oversimplified anything at all.

You stated the doctrine didn’t exist for more than 300 years after Christ. He provided an example of a Second Century Christian who was very much explaining the nature of the Trinity. It’s not like one day there was no Trinity doctrine and the next day there was. The doctrine was the result of complex thought by early Christians trying to understand the nature of Christ and the relationship to God.

 

[Firelight]

Not that simple. If I believe in a green leprechaun and call him “Christ,” am I Christian?

Christians aren’t named for green leprechauns. They are called Christians because they believe and accept Jesus Christ is Savior. “Christ”...... “Christ”ian.

Yes, it’s that simple. You have stated that you are not Christian, so stop trying to tell Christians how they must define themselves.

 

[Watchmen]

Christians aren’t named for green leprechauns. They are called Christians because they believe and accept Jesus Christ is Savior. “Christ”...... “Christ”ian.

Yes, it’s that simple. You have stated that you are not Christian, so stop trying to tell Christians how they must define themselves.

Ah, but the Jesus Mormons believe in might as well be a green leprechaun as he’s so different than what traditional Christianity teaches.

 

[Katzpur]

I give up. ***MOD EDIT***

**mod edit**

See, your problem is that you don't actually read much of what I say. The Hellenization of Christianity took place over a three-hundred year period. I never claimed that it happened overnight. So stop pretending that I said it did.

 

[Lain]

I have a few questions for non-Mormon Christians about their views of Mormonism.

1. According to non-Mormon Christianity, was Joseph Smith a prophet?
   • If he was not, why not?
   • What parts of the New Testament disqualifies him?
2. According to non-Mormon Christianity are Mormons correctly holding by Christian requirements for salvation?
3. According to non-Mormon Christianity are Mormons correctly following the teachings of Jesus?
4. According to non-Mormon Christianity are there negative consequences to someone beleiving in Mormanism?
5. According to non-Mormon Christianity are the varous Mormon books/writings, shown below, considered authorative Christian scripture?
   • If not, what makes them not so?
   • If not, would non-Mormons benefit froom reading and learning from them?

View attachment 48944

1) He was not. He contradicts the revealed Apostolic Faith, including (and most importantly) the Holy Trinity as taught in the New Testament and the Holy Eucharist.
2) They are not even Christian in our view.
3) No, they are not even Christian in our view.
4) Being in a false religion (not knowing the truth is in itself a bad consequence), and if obstinately believed in while knowing of the falsehood in it condemnation at the Final Judgment by the Lord Jesus.
5) They are not due to the first question and that (as far as I know) it is considered to be a genuine Public Revelation (which is binding on people), of which to us there is no more after the death of the last Apostle, St. John, in 99AD. There is benefit to reading them to learn what others belief or for apologetic reasons.

As for me I take the claims of Joseph Smith less seriously than Muhammad, another false prophet in my view. But Mormons are to be treated with respect and one ought to seriously learn their views.

 

[John D. Brey]

If Joseph smith was a true prophet, his teachings would not contradict the bible. Unfortunately they do contradict the teachings of the bible. A notable one being the mormon teaching that humans existed as spriits before they became humans.

Your statement seem similar to atheists who claim if the Bible was true it wouldn't contradict science.

Naturally it doesn't. It uses a different kind of language than modern science, but it never contradicts or gets the science wrong if properly interpreted.

We could say that Joseph Smith used a different kind of language, and different metaphors, that might lend themselves to misinterpretation without any of them actually contradicting the scripture if the scripture and Joseph Smith are both interpreted accurately within the proper context.

For instance, Ephesian 1:4 claims we were in Christ prior to the foundation of the world. So as Christ is taught to preexist his incarnation in Jesus of Nazareth, so too, every believer is said to pre-exist his own incarnate form since he was in Christ, before Christ was in Jesus Christ.



John

 

[Katzpur]

For instance, Ephesian 1:4 claims we were in Christ prior to the foundation of the world. So as Christ is taught to preexist his incarnation in Jesus of Nazareth, so too, every believer is said to pre-exist his own incarnate form since he was in Christ, before Christ was in Jesus Christ.

Thanks for pointing that out. There are several other passages that could bed used to support the idea that all of us had a pre-mortal existence in God's presence. That doesn't mean that all Christians will interpret these passages in the same way, and it definitely does not mean that anyone whose interpretation differs from that of the majority of Christians is not a Christian himself.

 

[idea]

They are called Christians because they believe and accept Jesus Christ is Savior. “Christ”...... “Christ”ian.

Do Mormons believe all they need is Christ as their savior?

These are some of the questions Mormons have to answer to get their temple recommend, and what they consider earns them the right to get into heaven:

1. Do you have a testimony of the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ? (the restoration = the church - they want you to believe in the church.)
2. Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator and as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local leaders of the Church? (you have to follow the church leaders)
3. Do you follow the teachings of the Church...? (NOT teachings of Jesus, the teaching of "the Church")
4. Do you support or promote any teachings, practices, or doctrine contrary to those of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? (again, it is about support "the church" NOT Jesus)
5. Do you strive to ... attend your meetings; ... (again, it is all about the church - NOT Jesus)
6. Are you a full-tithe payer? (get to heaven by giving $$ to the church - that already has over 100 billion dollars)
7. Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple, including wearing the temple garment as instructed in the endowment? (wear funny underwear = get to heaven)
8. Are there serious sins in your life that need to be resolved with priesthood authorities as part of your repentance? (the "priesthood" resolves sins, rather than Christ)

It is the church where people worship men - follow men - get their sins forgiven by the church, not Christ. Pay the church. .... not really Christian.

 

[Firelight]

Do Mormons believe all they need is Christ as their savior?

I’m sure they have other teachings in addition, and so do other Christian churches.

It is the church where people worship men - follow men - get their sins forgiven by the church, not Christ. Pay the church. .... not really Christian.

Their church name is ‘The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.’ It isn’t named after a man, it’s named after Christ. They worship Christ. Catholics have a Pope— a man, and have confession with their Priests, who are men. The Catholic Church is the richest church on earth. You seem to not know much about other Christian churches and their teachings.

What is your point?

 

[Firelight]

I have a few questions for non-Mormon Christians about their views of Mormonism.

1. According to non-Mormon Christianity, was Joseph Smith a prophet?
   • If he was not, why not?
   • What parts of the New Testament disqualifies him?
2. According to non-Mormon Christianity are Mormons correctly holding by Christian requirements for salvation?
3. According to non-Mormon Christianity are Mormons correctly following the teachings of Jesus?
4. According to non-Mormon Christianity are there negative consequences to someone beleiving in Mormanism?
5. According to non-Mormon Christianity are the varous Mormon books/writings, shown below, considered authorative Christian scripture?
   • If not, what makes them not so?
   • If not, would non-Mormons benefit froom reading and learning from them?

View attachment 48944

There are 34,000-41,000 Christian denominations in the whole world. When you say non-Mormon Christianity are you speaking to all of them? That is a lot of variance in Christian teachings.

1) No. Other churches accept their own leaders. Individual Christians would need to study Joseph Smith on their own.

2) They accept Jesus Christ as Savior, that is the most important part of salvation and being Christian. Christian churches vary in their beliefs for salvation. They are not all beholden to the Emperors’ of the Roman Empire ideology, especially in the USA. The Mormon church is free to determine what teachings for salvation they follow as is anyone else.

3) Is there only one correct way to follow the teachings of Jesus? I don’t know much about how Mormons or other Christian denominations follow Jesus’ teachings. I just know churches vary a lot. The Bibles vary and churches pick and choose which scriptures in the Bible they want to follow.

4) I don’t think so. I believe each church is free to worship Jesus Christ however they wish. There are others who have a different opinion than I do and spend their lives telling others how wrong their beliefs are, instead of studying and applying the teachings of Jesus.

5) No. A lot of Christians only want and accept the Bible. Others have some additional books that their churches have published.

I think Non-Mormons could very well benefit from reading and learning from these books. I have “The Pearl of Great Price” because it contains Books of Moses and Abraham, which I was interested in having.

 

[Lain]

I am posting this because I was trapped in the abusive Mormon faith, my children were abused in it, and I want to protect others from being abused in it. (I know "Mormon" is no longer used as their name, but it is too long to write "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint - and I do not see them as a church of Jesus - far from it - they use the Book of Mormon, and I will call them by the book they use - which is not the bible - their bible is a twisted edited bible)

I'm not sure it is good to "respect" those who pantomime slitting their throat and cutting their insides open if they do not follow their leader....

View attachment 56319

Who teach their children to worship their leaders...

Those who know the covenants and theater from the temple know this is not a church of Jesus, is not Christian.

Unless you think Warren Jeffs and other polygamous sex cults are Christians - please do not group the Mormon church with Christianity. They do not use the Bible, they do not rely on Jesus as the only one who saves, they do not believe in the trinity, they require polygamy to reach heaven - their current prophet is a polygamist (is sealed to more than one wife), they are NOT Christian.

Again, I am posting this because I was trapped in that abusive faith, my children were abused by "priests" (one who is now in jail) from that church, and I want to protect others from being abused in it.

Indeed, I do not think they are Christian but to me they are just random polytheists. They do not have the same deity as me and that is why my Church (and other Churches) do not recognize them as Christians.

As for respect, I mean the level of charity we owe to all, as the Lord Jesus said: "You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor’ and ‘Hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven, because he causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not the tax collectors also do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing that is remarkable? Do not the Gentiles also do the same? Therefore you be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect."

 

[idea]

Indeed, I do not think they are Christian but to me they are just random polytheists. They do not have the same deity as me and that is why my Church (and other Churches) do not recognize them as Christians.

As for respect, I mean the level of charity we owe to all, as the Lord Jesus said: "You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor’ and ‘Hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven, because he causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not the tax collectors also do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing that is remarkable? Do not the Gentiles also do the same? Therefore you be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Jesus also overturned tables at the temple. It is not loving to enable abuse and lies - not loving to anyone on any side of that mess.

 

[idea]

I think Non-Mormons could very well benefit from reading and learning from these books. I have “The Pearl of Great Price” because it contains Books of Moses and Abraham, which I was interested in having.

You might want to research what the Pearl of Great Price is...

"LDS critics point out that, since the original Papyri have been examined by both LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists and both groups have indicated clearly that the scrolls are funerary texts that have nothing to do with Abraham or anything mentioned in the LDS scripture,[4] the Book of Abraham cannot have been translated from the scrolls as Joseph Smith claims and is therefore a false book of scripture. Also, since the translations of the facsimiles were taken from copies of the original papyri and each contains such blatant translation errors as listing drawings of women as men and canopic jars as idols, critics reject the claim made by apologists that the Book of Abraham was translated from scrolls that were lost. Even more blatant, is that Joseph identified specific characters on the facsimiles and gave their translations that Egyptologists say are completely in error."

The Book of Abraham Issues - Translation Problems

 

[Firelight]

You might want to research what the Pearl of Great Price is...

"LDS critics

I’ve already done my research. I pretty much despise critics’ views, they cannot be trusted.

 

[idea]

I’ve already done my research. I pretty much despise critics’ views, they cannot be trusted.

LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists agree on this one...

 

[Watchmen]

I’ve already done my research. I pretty much despise critics’ views, they cannot be trusted.

You mean you don’t trust people who blindly agree with you and the church.

 

[Bree]

Where in the Bible does it say that God created our spirits at the moment of our birth rather than prior to our birth? As far as I know, the Bible is silent on the timing of when our spirits were created (although I do know of several places in which the Bible hints at the pre-mortal life of man).

the account about the creation of the first man shows that he was brought to life by God. He was created from the earth, lifeless until God brought him to life. The problem is that the meaning of the word 'spirit' varies and is often misused by most religions and in the bible the human spirit is nothing more then the life we enjoy while we are alive. At Ecclesiates 3:10 for there is an outcome* for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome.+ As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit.+ So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile.
When we are dead, that spirit is also dead. We can see from the account about Adams creation in Genesis that Adam was not immortal...that he was not alive prior to his creation and that staying alive depended on obedience.

Gen 2:17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die
Katzpur, tell me this.... if God warned Adam that disobedience would be punished by death, how could death have been a punishment if Adam was still going to live as a spirit?

 

[Bree]

Mohammad didn’t believe Jesus is Savior.
Islam doesn’t believe Jesus is Savior.

Joseph Smith believed Jesus is Savior, that makes him Christian.
Mormons believe Jesus is Savior, that makes them Christians.

Actually Mohammad did believe in Jesus as a greater prophet then Abraham, Noah, and Moses. But that doesnt mean that he followed the teachings of Jesus and followed him.

The Koran says of Jesus: “His name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter.” (Sura 3:45) “The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam.” (Sura 3:59)

To be a christian means to follow Christ in his life course, teachings and conduct. If Mohammad believed that Jesus was a prophet and equal to Adam, then why not follow him? Why create a new religion?

New religions draw people away from following Jesus, they dont bring them to follow Jesus.

 

[Bree]

Your statement seem similar to atheists who claim if the Bible was true it wouldn't contradict science.

Naturally it doesn't. It uses a different kind of language than modern science, but it never contradicts or gets the science wrong if properly interpreted.

We could say that Joseph Smith used a different kind of language, and different metaphors, that might lend themselves to misinterpretation without any of them actually contradicting the scripture if the scripture and Joseph Smith are both interpreted accurately within the proper context.

For instance, Ephesian 1:4 claims we were in Christ prior to the foundation of the world. So as Christ is taught to preexist his incarnation in Jesus of Nazareth, so too, every believer is said to pre-exist his own incarnate form since he was in Christ, before Christ was in Jesus Christ.



John

HI John,
This verse is the one used by predistinationists as evidence for this idea and i can see why that is the case when looking at this one verse alone.

However, Jesus spoke about the 'founding of the world' in Luke 11 and according to his words, the 'founding of the world' begins, not with Adam and Eve, but with Able.
Vs 20 That is why the wisdom of God also said: ‘I will send prophets and apostles to them, and they will kill and persecute some of them,+ 50 so that the blood of all the prophets spilled from the founding of the world may be charged against* this generation,+ 51 from the blood of Abel+ down to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah, who was killed between the altar and the house.’+ Yes, I tell you, it will be charged against* this generation.

We could ask how the 'founding of the world' could begin with Able and not Adam or Eve or the older brother Cain. The conclusion given by the Watchtower Bible and Tract society is this

• founding of the world: The Greek word for “founding” is rendered “to conceive” at Heb 11:11, where it is used with “offspring.” Here used in the expression “founding of the world,” it apparently refers to the birth of children to Adam and Eve. Jesus associates “the founding of the world” with Abel, evidently the first redeemable human of the world of mankind whose name had been written in the scroll of life “from the founding of the world.”—Lu 11:51; Re 17:8; see study note on Mt 25:34.
  

So i dont believe Eph 1:4 is claiming all humans had a pre existence....rather its a statement by Paul affirming the fact that God had a plan to redeem Adam and Eves offspring from the consequences of sin and death and that plan begins with righteous Able who was the first man to show himself worthy of salvation. From him onward the plan to redeem fallan mankind was firmly established.