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Questioning the divine origin of the Covenant...

Would strong evidence of an earthly covenant change your view of the Bible?


  • Total voters
    4

blambore

New Member
Greetings All,

I spent the last twelve years investigating on the origin of the Abrahamic faith and the birth of monotheism. This has led me to develop a new hypothesis that invites us to reconsider our understanding of the history of Israel. I would therefore like to humbly submit The Covenant to this forum's critical examination, as I see that there are lots of very bright and constructive minds at work. Please note that The Covenant can now be downloaded free of charge at www.earthlycovenant.com.

Overview of The Covenant:

The question of whether Abraham ever existed is an age-old and emotionally-charged one that is revisited in The Covenant, using a fresh and thought-provoking approach. By challenging the religious perspective of a divine lord, this book makes a solid case for a euhemeristic origin of this foundational episode of monotheism.

It was not unusual during the Bronze Age for Kings or Pharaohs to be deified as living gods. Using a holistic, literal and secular interpretation, this essay first demonstrates how the Abrahamic narrative (Ge 12-25) is far more coherent when considered from the standpoint of a mortal lord and the establishment of an earthly covenant aimed at pacifying the Valley of Siddim.

Using biblical, historical and archeological evidence, this research then shows how, through the Bronze Age nomadic practices of necromancy and the cult of the ancestors, the descendants of Abraham would have celebrated the memory of their benevolent lord, and how, through the “gift of the land” they would have adopted a sedentary lifestyle that would have led to the emergence of Baal Berith (“Lord of the Covenant”), the enigmatic pagan deity of Shechem.

By studying the evolutionary stages of devotion through a comparative analysis of Near Eastern cultual practices, The Covenant shows how each time Israel was submitted to a new foreign power its exclusive deity underwent a visible transformation. Baal Berith would have first been venerated beside the Canaanite deities inherited from the Babylonian pantheon. As Canaan became a vassal of Egypt, a nation fond of compounded deities, Baal Berith would have taken on the attributes of El, Baal and Astarte and morphed into a new super deity: Yahweh.

Initially venerated alongside the former pagan deities, theological and political struggles would have compelled the Israelites to monolatrism and the refutation of lesser Baals. It would finally be in the aftermath of the Babylonian exile, under Assyrian influence, that the religion of Yahweh would adopt its final ontological concepts. Modern monotheism would therefore be the result of this slow evolutionary process.

The quest to identify the Lord of the Covenant shows that the chronologies reported in the Bible can be surprisingly accurate, but only after the errors introduced by Nabonidus’ scribes while converting them from the Babylonian sexagesimal system are corrected. Using archeological, chronological and dendrochronological (i.e., tree rings) evidence, the lives of Abraham and king Hammurabi are correlated in order to show how the later could very well prove to be the mythical Lord of the Bible. In what is more than just a stream of coincidences, the long chain of biblical events line up with astonishing accuracy with the history of the region. The dates and events, people’s tradition and cultual practices, laws and structure of governance all come together to give this biblical story a rational interpretation. Common sense finally prevails in the meeting of myth and history.

This brief abstract might appear at odd with mainstream academic positions on first sight, but I trust that you will find that the research provides an efficient synthesis of past maximalist and minimalist positions. All the pieces of the puzzle (i.e. textual, etymological, sociological, archeological, chronological and dendrochronological) fall into place and converge to offer an overwhelming burst of evidence.

A little bit about me…

I do not believe in the Almighty God of the Bible (as direct result of my work), but I do believe that consciousness contributes to driving the evolution of the universe towards the more complex and the more beautiful. As such, one might be tempted to classify me as pantheist/panpsychisist.

I have an engineering background and was raised in a mixed family – atheist father and theist mother. After publishing a first essay on the topic in 2009, I was taken to task and decided to sign up for a Master in Theology, which helped me consolidate the case. The Covenant is the result of this effort.

The book spans nearly 500 pages, but you will get the gist of it in the introduction. If you are sufficiently intrigued, you are welcome to continue exploring...

I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts and participating in a healthy dialog.

Bernard Lamborelle
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
Welcome Blambore to the forum :D Lovely to meet a pantheist. I cannot answer your question, as i am not knowledgable in The Covenant. This thread would be better suited in Religious Debates, than this one, as you are not merely introducing yourself. I suggest you give us mods permission to move it, if you would like :)
 

blambore

New Member
Hello Terese,

Newbie at work here. You are probably right... moving it sounds like the right thing to do.

Thank you for the help and kind words.

Bernard
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Wow, it looks like you put a lot of work into your study of the subject. I respect that. For me it doesn't sound like the type of topic I would want to read a 500 page book on, to be honest. I don't see how this historical stuff effects religious thinking today which is a subject that does interest me. By the way, I am a pantheist also.

Plus, I didn't vote on your question because I do not think I understand the question; Would strong evidence of an earthly covenant change your view of the Bible?

In fact, I guess I am not clear on your use of the word 'covenant' either.
 

PeteC-UK

Active Member
Hi Folks...

Well - it sounds good and all - but really - its all a bit pointless isnt it..?..we ALREADY KNOW that ALL the Hebrew lore, was not actually THEIR lore at all - but was taken directly from ancient SUMER...All the Jewish deity narrative is a rehash of the much MUCH earlier Sumerian lore - now famous Annunaki and all that - HARD EVIDENCE that cannot be forged - clay tablets tell us EVERYTHING the Jews took to be truth had already happened to the SUMERIANSS - even same NAMES and places and exceedingly similar overall narrative....Surely, that god is old news then - clearly seen to be incomplete and not original truth - so why even concentrate on THAT aspect at all..??..

Surely if such a covenant is to exist, we should first find out the truth of those who made it..And of course later - CHRIST will come agani and give an entirely different version to the Jews - yet oddly in line with the Sumer narrative - and HE will say that actualy ALL our spiritual wisdomt he world over, MUST have come from the SAME group of (semi) Divine Beings HERE - as THIS universe He said, is created seperate and hidden from all else..

if that is true - it means obviously all religion and spiritual wisdom comes from the same LIMITED source - as that source had no contact or knowledge of anything at all OUTSIDE of this ISOLATED realm.. Thats not strictly related I suppose - but does have implications for Jewish truth - and as said, that truth itself,is borrowed form a much earlier time and culture than the Bible says..It was indeed the Sumerians who first deified their Kings as living gods - and who actually tell us plainly, such (semi) Divine Beings ACTUALLY existed here beside us...It was NOT then - any myth or fantasy for THEM - and see - their records cannot be altered - clay tablets - at one time - these myths and legends were very VERY real Folks - and thus far, this Annunki Sumerian narrative is the eldsest and clearly starts and wholly influences the Jewish culture....If there was any Earthly covenant then - surely it is to be found THERE..??...
 
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blambore

New Member
Hi All, thank you for taking the time to read and to share your thoughts! That’s precisely what I was hoping for.

As you’ve guessed, this book is not intended for the one seeking enlightenment...

@George-ananda , the Covenant is probably the most fundamental concept of the three great monotheisms. It is the idea that God made a Covenant with Abraham in exchange for his unwavering commitment and loyalty. The purpose of my work is to demonstrate that the "God" of Abraham was not a divine entity, but an actual king, and that the covenant was motivated, not by faith, but by the imperatives of territorial control. It then shows that it is through the cult of the ancestors that this king will be elevated to the rank of deity and will eventually become worshiped as Yahweh.

@PeteC-UK, you are absolutely right. There is no doubt that Sumerian texts have, and for quite a long time, been known to have influenced the writing of the Bible. However, and up until now, one had to call upon "similarities" or draw "parallels" since no hard evidence has ever been uncovered. In addition, given that the concept of "Covenant" is so unique to Israel, many believers have retrenched behind it in order to refute any claims of Sumerian influence.

What’s new in this work (and has taken a lot of people by surprise), is the precision with which the “how”, “why”, “with whom” and “when” this covenant was made, as well the hard evidence supporting the case (i.e. year, names, location, etc.). This is why I believe it will be much harder to refute this evidence then what we have seen in the past.

The other novelty of this work is to show that the religion of Yahweh does go back much further in time than what the current scientific literature claims. However, there’s a bit of a catch 22… On the one hand, it shows that the Jews are right when they claim that their history is rooted in reality far more than in myths, but on the other hand, as soon as one buys into this historicity, one has no choice but to let go of this “God” and associated prophecies...

This work is therefore intended to shed new lights on the origin of this very critical moment in history; a moment that continues to influence the so many political actions... This is why I think anyone interested in the history of religions will find it an important read (but of course, I am biased). I also think that anyone who is questioning his or her faith in Judaism, Christianity or Islam should most definitely get acquainted with it as it will probably help address a number of questions.

Thanks again for engaging in this discussion, and for keeping it going!
 

Forever_Catholic

Active Member
It is impossible to prove that Abraham never existed or that his covenant with God never occurred. So you present an alternate explanation of the text in Genesis; that "the story of Abraham is actually that of an earthly covenant made with a powerful ruler and that the God of the Bible evolved from the deification of this man." There are too many arguments against that; too many things in the Bible that it doesn't line up with, such as creation, the other covenants in salvation history, messianic prophecies and fulfillments, etc. The notion that the God of the Bible evolved from the deification of an unidentified man in Genesis leaves volumes of conflicting biblical data unaddressed.

You say in the video on the homepage that “it’s time to put away dogmatic beliefs,” and you suggest that we “change the world one belief at a time.” But you have an enormous amount of scripture left to explain away in the hope that believers will be convinced, and they won't be. I think it would be much better to use your time and obvious intellectual wherewithal to seek the real truth. I pray you will be moved to do that.
 
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PeteC-UK

Active Member
Hi Folks..

Blambore; I love synchronicity....and it just so happens a few days before you posted this thread, I myself have just finished digesting the "Giants" book by Stitchen - and am now starting the Lost Book of Enki lol...so we are pretty much coming from the same place I think here...From what i can gather - it seems that TWO Sumerian demigods - one wishing to destroy us - Enlil - the other wishing to save us - Enki - and over time - recorded and verified as we trace the narrative through various cultures - these TWO demi gods become entwined in Jewsih lore and become known TOGETHER as Yahweh...

Modern scholars such as Stitchen - have tried to present this as some kind of "space man war" - with extra TERRESTRIALS visiting earth - but we need to realise - they are primarily extra DIMENSIONAL Beings, and only have those particular physical forms HERE in this part of creation...But as your work here deals with the purely physical worldy aspects, I guess this line of spiritual thought may muddy the waters a bit here..

Now to my understanding here - ALL these Annunaki - are the exact same group of CREATED ANGELS and THEIR "god" - who Christ said its name first was YALDABOATH - then its own Angels named it SAKLAS - and when it revealed itself to mankind IT called itself Yahweh...Christ said this whole group, are here because of a mishap - a Divine mistake - and that is why HE came among us...This ANGEL Yaldaboath/Saklas/Yawheh - is a CREATURE not a true Divine God - there are only THREE Divine Beings - all creation flows form a a TRINITY MIND - and this Primal spirit alone is the TRUE Divine - He said THEY cause all else to exist, (Christ Himself of course,integral TO that trinity Divine mind along with a Feminine Divine Named SOFIA) - She ACTS ALONE to call forth this CREATURE - and this Angel here is a MISTAKEN CREATION - Christ said specifically - it is MALFORMED and resembled a DRAGON !!

Sofia is scared and ashamed of this act - and because of this it is literally "thrown away" - discarded, hidde HERE inthis SEPERATE creation - ENTIRELY ISOLATED from everything else....THIS is the start of ALL of it HERE - as everything that happens is now occurring in THIS isolated realm..a DRAGON gets CAST OUT OF THE TRUE HEAVENS - and so we see ACTUAL Divine truth become Sumerian real world events - as 2gods" fall to earth and interact DIRECTLY AMONG US...They are SEMI Divine - much of that which is presented by Stitchin as "advanced technology" - we will find - I know from experience - it is not so much a technology, but more like a MIND POWER that uses a focus of a material tool....WHat I mean is - we humans CANNOT use their tools - we need a more powerful MIND - and so ,we looked at them HONESTLY as TRUE gods....

Consider the actual accouonts here - GODS (angels according to Christ) - become KINGS and mighty men of old- and check it out Folks - they did this by natural intercourse - altering their FORM to IMPERSONATE the husband of a Queen - IMPREGNATE her - and all the while she believes it IS her husband of course...Child born - DIFFERENT and a HYBRID DEMI god - and look here - LEGITOMATE RULER,as theyare born to Kings and Queens....Check out the many many direct examples given in scripture...Even NOAH - NOT a human child - but born to human parents....These same group of semi Divine ANGELS have been here all along - giving us the world over ALL our spiritual wisdom...It is now a "real can of worms" - and I honestly applaude anybody who can pick it all apart...Most interesting, VERY intriguing...

I trust Christ alone here for full truth of it all - He Himself is totally neutral to all this - unbiassed - he merely says it was a mistake that happened and led to Him coming DIRECTLY - He is NOT connected to this group OR to the Jewish tradition - but chose that time and place to best confront the confusion..He said explicitly that HE ALONE, came from a realm that none of these others had EVER encountered before...OUR "god2 that we search for here - was a CREATURE - an Angel created by mistake in the Greater realm - then placed here alone and isolated, in this seperate realm..

Forever Catholic; The "alternate version of truth" as we should cal it - STARTED with the Jewish confusion - put upon them ON PURPOSE by these ANGELS (not gods as Christ said) as they LIED and MANIPULATED all mankind..They have been doing it ever since...Along comes Christ half way through - tells us truth - tellsus SPECIFICALLY that this god Yahweh is anIMPOSTER - teaches us all about this OTHER Greater realm,TRUE Divine that NONE here had ever encountered - PROVED His truth with MIRACLES - feats of the Divine MIND - that NO PRIEST OF YAHWEH COULD MATCH - and when they realised HE IS LEGITIMATE they faced a crucila choice of course - either abandonthe lesser god Yahweh or do something to stop this Christ with His NEW TRUTH..As we know - they clung to their old ways - kept their own power and status secured - and MURDERED my mate to silence His truth that damned their god as an IMPOSTER...

The bible sanctioned by that religious institution is a fraud - your own cathokic encyclopedia fully admits their origins and tells us basically they have no proof to offer at all and that we muust truth them...lol...yer right..?...

Why trust them at all - when the world over we find HARD EVIDENCE that directly blows apart ALL Jewish lore and the later "christian religion" that shares that truth of the WRONG god....I suggest instead of a bible - read any and all manuscripts that your church FORBAD you to know about - you know - all that wisdom they hunted down and tortured people for for CENTURIES - murdered them to stop the spread of Divine truth - replaced it all the world over with ENFORCED catholic doctrine...So as a free thnking person - if you are indeed free thinking - it would serve you best if you sort out the ORIGINAL truth of your religion instead of swallowing that which they spoon fed you as truth..Dont blindly trust the bible just because they TEL:L you its the word of god.....Check it out for yourself....As my dear old muunm wouold say - what cant speak cant tell lies - so go find the HARD evidence and see for yourself...Its easy inthis modern age....Plain for all to see - which is why your religion lost its grip of domination over us..>Wise up..
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Greetings All,
Shalom.

I have an engineering background and was raised in a mixed family – atheist father and theist mother. After publishing a first essay on the topic in 2009, I was taken to task and decided to sign up for a Master in Theology, which helped me consolidate the case. The Covenant is the result of this effort.

The book spans nearly 500 pages, but you will get the gist of it in the introduction. ...
A couple of questions:
  • Did you get your degree?
  • Has The Covenant been peer reviewed?
Parenthetically, you wrote:
As Canaan became a vassal of Egypt, a nation fond of compounded deities, Baal Berith would have taken on the attributes of El, Baal and Astarte and morphed into a new super deity: Yahweh.
What of the southern origins of 'YHWH of the Shasu' as suggested by, e.g., Redford?
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
It is impossible to prove that Abraham never existed or that his covenant with God never occurred. So you present an alternate explanation of the text in Genesis; that "the story of Abraham is actually that of an earthly covenant made with a powerful ruler and that the God of the Bible evolved from the deification of this man." There are too many arguments against that; too many things in the Bible that it doesn't line up with, such as creation, the other covenants in salvation history, messianic prophecies and fulfillments, etc. The notion that the God of the Bible evolved from the deification of an unidentified man in Genesis leaves volumes of conflicting biblical data unaddressed.

You say in the video on the homepage that “it’s time to put away dogmatic beliefs,” and you suggest that we “change the world one belief at a time.” But you have an enormous amount of scripture left to explain away in the hope that believers will be convinced, and they won't be. I think it would be much better to use your time and obvious intellectual wherewithal to seek the real truth. I pray you will be moved to do that.
Given that the creation stories weren't written down until much later, I don't see "retconning" stories as a problem.
 

blambore

New Member
Hello again everyone,

@Forever_Catholic, I agree that it is impossible to demonstrate that something does not exist. All that is possible is to demonstrate which that exists. If you would care to download the book, you would find that a fare amount of the history of Israel can be explained in natural ways. In fact, it covers a fair amount of the history of the Torah. As for Jesus, I do not have a set perspective on his historicity as a man. My take on his teachings is that the New Testament is best understood as a reform of the Torah; a reform that was inspired through synchretism (proximity and exchange of ideas) with Buddhism and Zoroastrianism. I believe that the real teachings of Jesus relate to exposing the emptiness of the old faith (best understood when Yahweh is seen as a deified mortal) and bringing his people to tame their ego and seek enlightenment - the common instructions of ALL spiritual movements. I view the entire biblical edifice is a mega-construct that rests on one premise: the God of the Covenant. In my view, acknowledging that the God of Abraham was a mortal takes everything down, as all the prophets, including Jesus, acknowledge the divine nature of Abraham’s Lord and base their prophecies on such premise. While nothing prevents one for cherry picking what works for him, I think it is not possible to maintain coherence of the whole if you take this element out of it. In fact, the Covenant might be the only element in the entire Bible that cannot be removed because it is so fundamental to everything else. Think about it and let me know.

@PeteC_UK, The question at work for me is that of parsimony (i.e. what’s the simplest explanation that can account for a phenomenon). Sure one can invoke gods, angels and extra terrestrial being, but how is this serving you/us when we can provide a simpler, very down to earth explanation? If angels had come down to visit, we should be able to pinpoint the specific time in history and geographic location where they did, as their visit would have led to significant boost in knowledge, culture and experience. Yet, historical data shows mankind has been progressing incrementally. The few moments in history where a jump occurred (sedentary lifestyle, advent of writing, expansion of empires, astrology, mathematics), there are plenty of environmental conditions to account for, without having to revert to extra-terrestrial beings.
I think the ego is that insecure which seeks certainties. The temptation to revert to supernatural is therefore always strong when there are no other possible explanations. This is what mankind has been doing ever since day one and the reason he invented gods in the first place. Critical thinking, on the other hand, brings us to seek solutions based on objective evidence (rather then subjective evidence we would like to have)… The stories of the giants have been debunked many times and all pictures found on the net have been proven to be fakes. Of course, one can extract certain passages of the Bible and come up with any interpretation, but I think our goal should always be to offer an interpretation that is more efficient, not just different. I believe that the history of the writing of the Bible – which has remained unclear to scientists until now – can finally be explained and accounted for without the need to revert to supernatural.

@Jayhawker Soule, Shalom and nice to meet you. I completed all my courses, but did not obtain my degree. The main reason I signed up is because the man who eventually became my director called my initial work "laughable". I figured that if I could learn from him, I could further test my hypothesis and see how far I could take it. It is a funny story, as the first time I walked in his office; he raised his hand to stop me, and said "I hope you are not here to talk about your book!" He went on to explain why he thought it was ridiculous... His main objection had to do with the historical aspect of my work (claiming Abraham was a actual figure of the Bronze age). When I explained to him that the core of my interest was related to textual analysis, he was surprised and agreed to support my effort… as long as I agreed to never try to put Abraham in a historical context! I agreed to this because I wanted to learn. That was the only time we discussed my ideas. We had very little interaction there after. In his mind, I think he thought that I would soon realize how stupid my ideas were if only I could learn how to work properly.

My memoire was meant to show that Ge 14, far from being an anecdotic chapter was actually key to the understanding the covenant (some of which is in the book). As time went on, and I kept solidifying my argumentation, he eventually come to acknowledge that my intuition was "interesting" (I took that as a huge compliment!) I naively thought I could push the envelope by bridging the historical gap, but that is something he completed rejected, invoking our initial agreement. Given I had learned enough by then, it was time for me to focus my energies on writing this book instead of trying to make him happy. As for peer reviews, I have reached out to a number of academics in the fields, which either ignored me; claimed they were not apt to comment on this topic; or claimed they were too busy to help. I think that part of the problem is that the hypothesis I am putting forward falls outside of their normal expectations and that it would have required effort on their end to wrap their heads around it. This is therefore the reason I am here. In the Preface of the book, I did try to expose the limitations of my work, both in terms of my own expertise, as well as in regards to current academic researches.

In regards to the Shasu Yahu, I do bring up in my book the fact this is the most widely admitted origin of the name Yahweh at this time. However, I do offer, what I believe is a compelling alternative by suggesting that YHWH might be a compounded super deity, which initial name would have been "BAALYAH WE BAALAH", of which the term BAAL was dropped. You would need to see the entire demonstration, but this suggestion rests on the fact that the divine element YAH can be shown to have derived from the Akkadian expression BELIYA, which means “My Lord” that became interpreted as BAAL YAH in Hebrew, which means "Lord Yah". Given YAHWEH had a consort named ASHERAH (i.e. BAALAH); that YAHWEH was worshipped alongside BAAL; and that BAAL also had a consort call ASHERAH and that the temple of YAHWEH and BAAL were one and the same temple, it can be shown that YAHWEH and BAAL were once considered one and the same deity. It is only later that the BAALs were eventually repudiated, that the worship of YAHWEH fully developed. This explanation is in no way incompatible with that of the Shasu Yahu geographic location; since the later one offers no explanation for the origin of the name itself... It also has the advantage of offering a strong synthesis of known archeological, biblical and contextual data. Again, this is a rough summary. I think the entire demonstration is worth considering.

@Kelly of the Phoenix, nice to meet you. Indeed, I must agree… :)
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
@Jayhawker Soule, Shalom and nice to meet you. I completed all my courses, but did not obtain my degree. ...

As for peer reviews, I have reached out to a number of academics in the fields, which either ignored me; claimed they were not apt to comment on this topic; or claimed they were too busy to help. I think that part of the problem is that the hypothesis I am putting forward falls outside of their normal expectations and that it would have required effort on their end to wrap their heads around it. ...

In regards to the Shasu Yahu, I do bring up in my book the fact this is the most widely admitted origin of the name Yahweh at this time. However, I do offer, what I believe is a compelling alternative ...

Good grief. :facepalm:
 

blambore

New Member
Good grief. :facepalm:

Yep, indeed... This is why I am hoping a few brave souls, such as yourself, will download a copy and share their impression with the rest of the group. I think it will be more valuable than me trying to convince everyone. I also don't think it is necessary to read the entire book to get a sense of what it is worth. The introduction itself should provide a good start.

Cheers,

Bernard
 

PeteC-UK

Active Member
Hi Folks..

Blambore;
If angels had come down to visit, we should be able to pinpoint the specific time in history and geographic location where they did, as their visit would have led to significant boost in knowledge, culture and experience.

Ah my friend - we CAN ACTUALLY DO THAT :) Those Sumerian clay tablets - UNALTERABLE physical source - tells us EXACTLY what occurred - it says specifically, the names places and CULTURE that each individual demigod was directly responsible for - and lo and behold - we found ALL the major cities just as the tablets said...As I say - I love synchronicity, and have literally just finished the book about this very subject,.period of history where it all began...its FASCINATING - and I have to tell you, the requirements you list above are fully accounted for WITHIN the tablet narrative..Inderstand here - EXPERIENCE you say - according TO THESE PEOPLE - they have the DIRECT EXPERIENCE of these "gods" being among them...Im not sure how familiar you are with their actual content - but here - you can download the book I just read and see the comparisons (actually its an audiobook)...

http://www.theglobalreality.com/audio-book-series

Yet, historical data shows mankind has been progressing incrementally. The few moments in history where a jump occurred (sedentary lifestyle, advent of writing, expansion of empires, astrology, mathematics), there are plenty of environmental conditions to account for, without having to revert to extra-terrestrial beings.

Ah, here we must differ greatly Im afraid...ALL the worlds "firsts" and defining achievemnets ALL STARTED in SUMER - and as I say their own records say explicitly that these "others" arrived, created them and taught them EVERYTHING about their culture...THEIR culture starts off ALL culture world wide...Heres a good source of their historical truth..

http://history-world.org/sumerian_culture.htm

They literally INVENTED society - and in terms of time period, this happened very quickly indeed...From NO TRACE of any settled civilisation, to a full on multi city state nation - and compared to how long humans had been around in one form or another - compared to that LONG LONG period of human STAGNATION in culture - then suddenly out of nowhere - this full on society springs up.. Now modern studies for some bizarre reason think thish happened only 6000 years ago - yet time and time again - we find physical proof that blows that notion completely out the water...THEI|R OWN RECORDS of course, go back 450000 years - and somewhere near the end is a GREAT FLOOD that literally DESTROYS everything...We must understand here - ALL our modern history is from AFTER the flood - and scholars look at anything recorded BEFORE that KNOWN event,and they label it as "myth and legend" and fail to take it seriously...Yet - ALL OVER THE WORLD - we find the same story and lots of EVIDENCE that back up the Sumer narrative completely...

In terms of culture - and every aspect of society itself - it ALL starts in Sumer - and some of their acheivements are absolutely stupendous and cannot even be matched by modern science....WE for instance - CANNOT quarry, cut lift SOLID STONE BLOCKS that range anywhere form 50 ton to a whopping great 1200 ton...YES - thats TWELVE HUNDRED TONNES FOLKS - way way WAY beyond ANYTHING we would even attempt with our modern knowledge modern machines - but this new society out of nowhere, and THE WHOLE SURROUNDING LAND - Egyptian astronomically aligned Great Pyramid for direct example - but as said, the whole area is filled with GIGANTIC BUILDING made from these huge huge HUGE blocks - and the entire world at large - similar things are found - HARD EVIDENCE that cannot be explained by ANY academic historian - yet is EASILY explained DIRECTLY by the Sumer narrative itself..

That society PRE DATES our own academic wisdom - and our ignorance stems from the fact that when they mention anything other worldy or spiritual - ACADEMIA SHYS AWAY, and treats it as mythand allegory - but as i keep telling you all - this was once REAL WORLD EVENTS - and those that directly EXPERIENCED that time and place -WROTE IT DOWN in a form that CANNOT be altered - we have their ORIGINAL truth - and as said, ALL THE HARD EVIDENCE supports it..

I think the ego is that insecure which seeks certainties. The temptation to revert to supernatural is therefore always strong when there are no other possible explanations.

we are not REVERTING back to anything SUPERNATURAL - the narrative tells us everything and look - as said - to THESE people,its not "supernatural" at all is it..?...NO - its their LIVING DAILY EXPERIENCE - what you and academia term as this supernatural thing, is actually NATURAL - the myths as academia sees it are FACTS as the people concerned saw it - and until academia takes note of their ORIGINAL TRUTH - then academia will remain Im afraid,ignorant of a great deal of history..

Take an honest look - there was a HUGE jump in mans evolution - in the same time and place that this narrative SAID it happened when mankind - homo sapien as we know it - CREATED by these "gods"...They describe DNA itself even and the processes of life AND that creation MILLENIA before we even knew what dna was..lol...Plus,all that sudden culture FIRST IN EVERYTHING - sprang up over night out of nowhere..Immediatelty it shows us feats of engineering that surpass even our own modern wisdom - they mapped the stars above ACCURATELY - and again modern science didnt know half oot this til just last century or so - yet somehow,ancient Sumer and its followers, aligned their GIGANTIC buildings PRECISELY to the stars positions...Then just as suddenly that whole culture - knoweldge of HOW all that was done - is LOST somehow the world over, and now WE cant explain ANY of their achievements....NOT UNLESS we take THEM at their word - for their own narrative explains it ALL...

Take an honest look - check out mans actual evolution - check out all those ancient mysteries that academia dare nto tackle and has no answers for - and yet -the ancient myths the world over all agree - and there in Sumer we found it all written down start to finish...YES - off world - none terrestrial visitors DID come here and THEy gave us EVERYTHING, even life itself....ALL the worlds history is easily explained wihtin those tablets and the later religious texts - like a can of worms as said, but truth is there and it all goes right back to Sumer....All we need do now then - is figure out WHERE did these visitors come from - and WHO or WHAT CREATED THEM...???....They create us and we know that without any reasonable doubt - if we allow all sources of wisdom to be heard that is...If we want THEIR truth and what came BEFORE they arrived - for that there is ONLY CHRIST - as only He speaks of the start of ALL creation - both ours and theirs..I said spiritula truth would muddy the waters but you cant get away from it - they are GODS as we took them to be - and we are an ETERNAL spirit always - personally, I seek THAT truth - all this other,is literally just academic TO that eternal truth...
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Yep, indeed... This is why I am hoping a few brave souls, such as yourself, will download a copy and share their impression with the rest of the group.
There is nothing whatsoever brave about wasting one's time. I will, however, meet you half way. Divulge the peer-reviewed text that you respect as providing the highest quality support for your position and I will strongly consider discussing it with you.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
You know, we don't ever hear anything about Baal Halashon (Lord of the Tongue), of Eccl. 10:11.
 

blambore

New Member
There is nothing whatsoever brave about wasting one's time. I will, however, meet you half way. Divulge the peer-reviewed text that you respect as providing the highest quality support for your position and I will strongly consider discussing it with you.

Thank you for opening the dialog. I'd like to start with a quote from Claus Westermann. For those not familiar with him, Westermann is considered by many as one of the premier Old Testament scholars of the 20th century. In his commentary, he writes:

There has as yet been no study of the relationship of the patriarchal story to the cult of ancestors. It is possible, however, that some expressions of ancestor cult are linked with narratives about the ancestors. Parallels to the patriarchal stories, therefore, should not be excluded. Such a study would be worthwhile.

A variant is the divinization of the ancestor; he becomes God and is venerated as such; the fact that he was the ancestor generally recedes into the background. The third possibility, on the other hand, seems to occur only in the patriarchal stories: the ancestor takes on the character of one who is unique, of the father par excellence; he remains, nevertheless, a man without the slightest trace of divinization or ancestor worship. It is clear from the nature of the traditions in Israel that the father of the people could not, in retrospect be divine or semi-divine, nor could there be any cult of the ancestors. This is based on the great importance of history in these traditions and on the confession of the one God. It is more difficult, however, to explain why the old, pre-Israelite patriarchal traditions also show no trace of ancestor worship or of divinization of the ancestor.

ref. Westermann, Claus. 1995. Genesis 12-36. Minneapolis: Fortress Press. (Orig. pub. 1985.). p.25.
Westermann hereby confirms that a study of the relationship between the Abrahamic narrative and the cult of the ancestors would be worthwhile, and that it is difficult to explain why the Israelite traditions show no trace of divinization of the ancestor. However, by focusing his attention entirely on Abraham, and his role as a father for Israel, Westermann neglects to consider the eventuality that Abraham’s Lord himself might have resulted from the deification of a powerful ancestor. Many people have got extremely close, but never quite asked the right question.

If only they had...

Thoughts?

Bernard
 

Forever_Catholic

Active Member
Forever Catholic; The "alternate version of truth" as we should cal it - STARTED with the Jewish confusion - put upon them ON PURPOSE by these ANGELS (not gods as Christ said) as they LIED and MANIPULATED all mankind..They have been doing it ever since...Along comes Christ half way through - tells us truth - tellsus SPECIFICALLY that this god Yahweh is anIMPOSTER - teaches us all about this OTHER Greater realm,TRUE Divine that NONE here had ever encountered - PROVED His truth with MIRACLES - feats of the Divine MIND - that NO PRIEST OF YAHWEH COULD MATCH - and when they realised HE IS LEGITIMATE they faced a crucila choice of course - either abandonthe lesser god Yahweh or do something to stop this Christ with His NEW TRUTH..As we know - they clung to their old ways - kept their own power and status secured - and MURDERED my mate to silence His truth that damned their god as an IMPOSTER...

The bible sanctioned by that religious institution is a fraud - your own cathokic encyclopedia fully admits their origins and tells us basically they have no proof to offer at all and that we muust truth them...lol...yer right..?...

Why trust them at all - when the world over we find HARD EVIDENCE that directly blows apart ALL Jewish lore and the later "christian religion" that shares that truth of the WRONG god....I suggest instead of a bible - read any and all manuscripts that your church FORBAD you to know about - you know - all that wisdom they hunted down and tortured people for for CENTURIES - murdered them to stop the spread of Divine truth - replaced it all the world over with ENFORCED catholic doctrine...So as a free thnking person - if you are indeed free thinking - it would serve you best if you sort out the ORIGINAL truth of your religion instead of swallowing that which they spoon fed you as truth..Dont blindly trust the bible just because they TEL:L you its the word of god.....Check it out for yourself....As my dear old muunm wouold say - what cant speak cant tell lies - so go find the HARD evidence and see for yourself...Its easy inthis modern age....Plain for all to see - which is why your religion lost its grip of domination over us..>Wise up..
Gnosticism can’t be reconciled with Catholicism. You think I should wise up, and I think you should. That’s how it would go, right?
 
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