Questioning God's Morality

[74x12]

Christian countries didn't ban slavery. Secular ones did. Nice false dichotomy. Even then, an atheist country was the first to ban ALL forms of slavery.

All countries are more or less secular. Thy were nominally Christian and inspired by the basic principles of Judeo-Christianity. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and "love your neighbor as yourself"

You can't just deny history. Well you can; but it's not reasonable. The so called Enlightenment era brought secularism to Europe. But, what came first and inspired the basic moral beliefs of those countries? Christianity, the Bible.

 

[Woberts]

All countries are more or less secular. Thy were nominally Christian and inspired by the basic principles of Judeo-Christianity. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and "love your neighbor as yourself"

You can't just deny history. Well you can; but it's not reasonable. The so called Enlightenment era brought secularism to Europe. But, what came first and inspired the basic moral beliefs of those countries? Christianity, the Bible.

Judeo-Christian morals didn't have a problem with slavery for a great many years. It's also among the most oppressive ideologies on earth, by actively seeking to limit the rights of others. Slavery fits its MO.

 

[Skwim]

Jesus claimed that God never liked divorce;

So what?

yet God allowed divorce in the Law of Moses because of the hardness of the people's hearts.

Chapter and verse please.

It would be foolish of us to think that God ever really liked slavery.

Why? If there's a chapter and verse showing god disliked slavery please share.

But going back in time and telling bronze age people not to have slaves wouldn't go over well. The Law of Moses was already pushing the boundaries in many other ways. For example the concept that you couldn't have idols or other gods. That was almost too much. God didn't want a complete revolution overthrowing society as they knew it. The Hebrew people were very skeptical of Moses and God. They barely accepted Moses or the Law. They would not have accepted it as it was without many signs and miracles. An unreasonable law like banning slavery or divorce could have given them an excuse to not accept it at all.

So essentially the people blackmailed god into ruling in favor of slavery. Exactly what do you think god was afraid they'd do if he didn't rule in favor of it?

Gotta say this flies in the face of the god of Abraham I've always heard about: all-knowing and all-powerful.

.

 

[74x12]

Chapter and verse please.

Matthew 19:4-9

Jesus makes the point that God said in Genesis that whoever is married is one flesh and that what God has put together no human should separate.

Yet, in the Law of Moses divorce is allowed. So, God allowed it for the time being; even though He didn't like it.

Why? If there's a chapter and verse showing god disliked slavery please share.

There are some scriptures. The entire epistle of Philemon is basically Paul ordering/begging Philemon to give Onesimus (Philemon's slave) his freedom. Onesimus had ran away from Philemon; but met up with Paul and had converted to Christianity. Paul had also converted Philemon previously so Paul felt like he had enough clout to get Philemon to let Onesimus go.

Anyway, as pointed out; forced slavery doesn't really hold up when compared with scriptures that say "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". This logically means if you don't want to be slave you should not enslave anyone by force. It was Biblical concepts like this that Christian ministers used to justify campaigning against slavery in the 19th century.

So essentially the people blackmailed god into ruling in favor of slavery. Exactly what do you think god was afraid they'd do if he didn't rule in favor of it?

Gotta say this flies in the face of the god of Abraham I've always heard about: all-knowing and all-powerful.

Well, God wanted His Covenant to be successful didn't He? God wanted the people to be successful. That's reasonable. So as I pointed out they barely obeyed and in fact they continually disobeyed. How much more if God made even more laws for them to break?

 

[Skwim]

There are some scriptures. The entire epistle of Philemon is basically Paul ordering/begging Philemon to give Onesimus (Philemon's slave) his freedom. Onesimus had ran away from Philemon; but met up with Paul and had converted to Christianity. Paul had also converted Philemon previously so Paul felt like he had enough clout to get Philemon to let Onesimus go.

Immaterial.

Anyway, as pointed out; forced slavery doesn't really hold up when compared with scriptures that say "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". This logically means if you don't want to be slave you should not enslave anyone by force. It was Biblical concepts like this that Christian ministers used to justify campaigning against slavery in the 19th century.

Yet, despite Luke 6:31, god still endorses slavery by setting out the rules by which it can be played.

Well, God wanted His Covenant to be successful didn't He?

So one would think.

God wanted the people to be successful. That's reasonable. So as I pointed out they barely obeyed and in fact they continually disobeyed. How much more if God made even more laws for them to break?

So they were the ones pulling the strings.

Q. In raising children which is wiser:

1) Setting out rules, some of which you will have to enforce, so as to produce well behaved children,

2) Don't set out any rules thereby saving your children from breaking them, and saving yourself the trouble of having to enforce them.

.

​

 

[ecco]

People are so concerned with slavery these days. Real slavery from God's perspective is to be enslaved to sin and that's what God hates the most.

I'm an atheist.
According to your beliefs, I'm enslaved to sin.

According to you, your God is more offended by my life than the condition of a slave picking cotton 10 hours a day and getting whipped at the discretion of others.

That's pretty sick.

The Law of Moses gave people a way to be free. So it was the --at the time-- the ultimate anti-slavery document.

BS. The the ultimate anti-slavery document would have been a clearly stated:
“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”
“Thou shalt not own slaves.”

 

[sooda]

I'm an atheist.
According to your beliefs, I'm enslaved to sin.

According to you, your God is more offended by my life than the condition of a slave picking cotton 10 hours a day and getting whipped at the discretion of others.

That's pretty sick.




BS. The the ultimate anti-slavery document would have been a clearly stated:
“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”
“Thou shalt not own slaves.”

Hypocrisy is easy enough.... But, its a hard slog if you're looking for morality in the Bible.

 

[ecco]

Hypocrisy is easy enough.... But, its a hard slog if you're looking for morality in the Bible.

Perhaps you should address that to 74x12.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You don't understand the Bible. It was both a religious law designed to bring people closer to God and it was also a civil law regulating life in a bronze age society..

So you claim. So you failed to show. Interesting...

Jesus claimed that God never liked divorce;.

Jesus never speaks of divorce, just as he never speaks of homosexuality, abortion or 99% of the Hot Issues of modern Evangelical Christianity....

Why is that, do you suppose?

yet God allowed divorce in the Law of Moses because of the hardness of the people's hearts. .

You know this because? More fantasy without any support... not even biblical...


<skipping a long-winded off-topic rant>

Christianity is the reason that slavery ever ended. It was at least nominally Christian countries that began to condemn slavery first in the world.

That would be false. Slavery existed in the US for as long as it did because Good Christians correctly pointed to the Bible as Justification for Slavery.

It took people who ignored the bible, who decided Slavery was IMMORAL, totally OUTSIDE of the bible's teachings, to stop slavery.

This included some more Progressive Christians, as well as other religious and non-religious folk.

It was the REJECTION of the Bible that let them remove slavery.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

People are so concerned with slavery these days. Real slavery from God's perspective is to be enslaved to sin and that's what God hates the most. The Law of Moses gave people a way to be free. So it was the --at the time-- the ultimate anti-slavery document.

Wow.... that's .... an amazing Fantasy you have painted there.

Too bad you have zero biblical scripture to back up your fantasy...

 

[sooda]

Immaterial.


Yet, despite Luke 6:31, god still endorses slavery by setting out the rules by which it can be played.



So one would think.



So they were the ones pulling the strings.

Q. In raising children which is wiser:

1) Setting out rules, some of which you will have to enforce, so as to produce well behaved children,

2) Don't set out any rules thereby saving your children from breaking them, and saving yourself the trouble of having to enforce them.

.

​

God also endorsed killing people to steal their land IF they weren't Hebrews.

 

[74x12]

I'm an atheist.
According to your beliefs, I'm enslaved to sin.

According to you, your God is more offended by my life than the condition of a slave picking cotton 10 hours a day and getting whipped at the discretion of others.

That's pretty sick.

Your argument makes no sense. God is offended by all people's sins. Both yours, the slaves and the slave owners.

 

[74x12]

Jesus never speaks of divorce, just as he never speaks of homosexuality, abortion or 99% of the Hot Issues of modern Evangelical Christianity....

Why is that, do you suppose?

Anyone with a basic modicum of reading comprehension can see that Jesus spoke of divorce in Matthew 19:3-9 and elsewhere as well.

You know this because? More fantasy without any support... not even biblical...


<skipping a long-winded off-topic rant>

I gave the scripture reference.

That would be false. Slavery existed in the US for as long as it did because Good Christians correctly pointed to the Bible as Justification for Slavery.

It took people who ignored the bible, who decided Slavery was IMMORAL, totally OUTSIDE of the bible's teachings, to stop slavery.

This included some more Progressive Christians, as well as other religious and non-religious folk.

It was the REJECTION of the Bible that let them remove slavery.

People did use the Bible to justify slavery but on the other side they used the Bible to condemn it. And you're trying to make it about "progressives" ... aren't you cute though. You can rewrite history all day but it doesn't change the facts. Nice try spin doctor.

 

[74x12]

God also endorsed killing people to steal their land IF they weren't Hebrews.

God owns all the land and just like He gives it to people; He can take it if they sin. So God gave the Hebrews other people's land and then took the same land away when they also sinned like the former owners. That's a warning to every nation.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Your argument makes no sense. God is offended by all people's sins. Both yours, the slaves and the slave owners.

Yet.... your god does 100% nothing about stopping slavery....

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Anyone with a basic modicum of reading comprehension can see that Jesus spoke of divorce in Matthew 19:3-9 and elsewhere as well..

So YOU say. I say it means something different. Who gets to decide? You? Me?

It is as if there is nothing-- anywhere-- that controls how this is taken.... hmmmm...

It appears your god is powerless to affect anything.

People did use the Bible to justify slavery but on the other side they used the Bible to condemn it. And you're trying to make it about "progressives" ... aren't you cute though. You can rewrite history all day but it doesn't change the facts. Nice try spin doctor.

Except there isn't anything in the bible that condemns slavery.... ooops!

Oh, I have no doubt you'll attempt... again... to spin it around 180 degrees from what is written, to mean what you WANT it to mean.

Just like you did up above...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

God owns all the land and just like He gives it to people; He can take it if they sin. So God gave the Hebrews other people's land and then took the same land away when they also sinned like the former owners. That's a warning to every nation.

Might Makes Right. That is your argument?

Except that Might Makes Right is a failed moral stance.

Just as your god does **nothing** about slavery, or anything else ...

 

[sooda]

So YOU say. I say it means something different. Who gets to decide? You? Me?

It is as if there is nothing-- anywhere-- that controls how this is taken.... hmmmm...

It appears your god is powerless to affect anything.



Except there isn't anything in the bible that condemns slavery.... ooops!

Oh, I have no doubt you'll attempt... again... to spin it around 180 degrees from what is written, to mean what you WANT it to mean.

Just like you did up above...

The Bible doesn't condemn slavery anywhere.

Hebrew Slavery

Exodus 21 - New International Version (NIV) | Biblica

 

[ecco]

Real slavery from God's perspective is to be enslaved to sin and that's what God hates the most.

I'm an atheist.
According to your beliefs, I'm enslaved to sin.

According to you, your God is more offended by my life than the condition of a slave picking cotton 10 hours a day and getting whipped at the discretion of others.

That's pretty sick.

Your argument makes no sense. God is offended by all people's sins. Both yours, the slaves and the slave owners.

That's not what you said earlier. Earlier you said what God hates the most is to be enslaved to sin. Are you suggesting that all sin is the same? Are you suggesting that committing adultery is on par with owning and beating slaves?

If so, I guess it's just because you are following the Bible which implies owning and beating slaves is not nearly as bad as adultery. Adultery is banned in the Ten Commandments, owning and beating slaves isn't.

 

[ecco]

God owns all the land and just like He gives it to people; He can take it if they sin. So God gave the Hebrews other people's land and then took the same land away when they also sinned like the former owners. That's a warning to every nation.

If there was any truth in any of that, by now God would have taken all lands from all Governments.

Didn't England, France, Spain and Portugal sin (Commandment #8) when they invaded the Americas and killed most of the natives?

Didn't the American Government sin (Commandment #8) when it stole land from the natives?