Question to christians

[74x12]

Still doesn't say that Jesus will judge or knows the day of judgment.

I see this Trinity business like this:
It was firstly a political thing, a compromise that Constantine personally made to
stop doctrinal feuding. Constantine, BTW, was the Herod of his day.
Questions of Trinity probably became a test of a person's allegiance to Catholicism.

At the same time these doctrines (like indulgences, transubstantiation, purgatory etc)
were added to "Christianity" (ie Catholicism) much of the simplicity of the Gospels was
removed from doctrine and practice.

It does say Jesus will judge the living and the dead ... (2 Timothy 4:1)

Yes it was a compromise between various churches. Constantine needed one united church (under his authority) to bring his empire together. The churches needed to answer the question of the proponents of Arianism while upholding deity of Christ. That is they needed a solid position to counter the doctrine of Arianism. So the trinity doctrine was solidified as "orthodox" but it wasn't accepted by all.

But the roots of the trinity doctrine are dubious. Even many modern trinitarians would dub what earlier trinitarians believed as heretical. In some places like Egypt it was more tritheistic rather than trinity like modern trinitarians believe. So trinitarians must explain how if their doctrine is true; then how come it was developed overtime by people who really had varying and strange views of it. Then we can also talk of the Greek philosophical origins of trinity doctrine rather than Jewish beliefs. The idea of a divine "logos" that was a distinct person from God for example.

But the writer of John was not a Greek philosopher, he was Jewish. His understanding of the Logos was more based on Jewish scripture like Genesis chapter 1.

The ones excluded by the newly formed Constantinian Roman Catholic church were the ones who believed in oneness of God. The early Christian believers didn't know of any trinity doctrine. But that many did believe in deity of Christ and his oneness with the Father is a fact.

The trinity is man made doctrine or man's attempt to explain God. I believe Father, Son and holy Spirit are just different ways that God relates to us.

 

[Kenny]

I can also say no. You are confusing spirit and soul. The spirit is the life force in a body. The soul is the body. In Genesis when it says God created the animals and fish, it is the same word that is translated "soul" for Adam. Adam became a living animal or beast or creature. A living body.. Otherwise God created the souls of the fields and the souls in the sea. They are just animals and so is Adam. Except Adam has a spirit and the others do not.

OK... we see it differently.

 

[halbhh]

Do you believe in the trinity?

Why? Why not?

The 'trinity' doctrine (to go past the implicit understanding that The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are of one accord, all divine, together since the beginning; to take these truths and make them into an an explicit formed doctrine) -- the doctrine was formed into a specific wording and emphasized in order to combat some important wrong ideas that arose about Christ:

"Of these controversies, the most significant developments were articulated in the first four centuries by the Church Fathers in reaction to Adoptionism, Sabellianism, and Arianism. ... Adoptionism was the belief that Jesus was an ordinary man, born of Joseph and Mary, who became the Christ and Son of God at his baptism ...." (continues)
Trinity - Wikipedia

So, the best answer for me is that I know that Christ is one with the Father, and the Spirit is from them. I could call this 'trinity', but it's better to listen and hear the inspired (revealed) words in scriptures. So, yes, the trinity doctrine is true, but it's still better yet to hear the words of scripture directly.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

OK... we see it differently.

Let me just give a similar situation. The Frankenstein monster was a dead body. It became alive when lightning hit it. Adam was a dead body until God breathed life into him.The monster did not get a soul. It just became alive by the power of lightning. Adam did not get a soul. He became alive by the power of God. In both cases a dead body became a living body. Also, when there is a flood or tornado and the newspapers say a hundred souls where lost, it does not mean souls were sucked out of a people. It means a hundred people died. The soul is the person. Of course this is my opinion and I respect other people's right to disagree. Thanks for an interesting exchange of ideas.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

The 'trinity' doctrine (to go past the implicit understanding that The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are of one accord, all divine, together since the beginning; to take these truths and make them into an an explicit formed doctrine) -- the doctrine was formed into a specific wording and emphasized in order to combat some important wrong ideas that arose about Christ:

"Of these controversies, the most significant developments were articulated in the first four centuries by the Church Fathers in reaction to Adoptionism, Sabellianism, and Arianism. ... Adoptionism was the belief that Jesus was an ordinary man, born of Joseph and Mary, who became the Christ and Son of God at his baptism ...." (continues)
Trinity - Wikipedia

So, the best answer for me is that I know that Christ is one with the Father, and the Spirit is from them. I could call this 'trinity', but it's better to listen and hear the inspired (revealed) words in scriptures. So, yes, the trinity doctrine is true, but it's still better yet to hear the words of scripture directly.

Just a comment on "the Spirit is from them". God IS spirit, not physical bodies. That means the Father IS spirit and the Son IS spirit. There is no need for a separate third person.. The Father is a holy spirit and the Son is a holy spirit because God is holy. Nothing needs to "come from them".

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Just a comment on "the Spirit is from them". God IS spirit, not physical bodies. That means the Father IS spirit and the Son IS spirit. There is no need for a separate third person.. The Father is a holy spirit and the Son is a holy spirit because God is holy. Nothing needs to "come from them".

I find that God "IS" love, and God sends forth His spirit - Psalms 104:30, God is from Heaven thus God is a spirit person.
God sent his first born of all creation from Heaven to Earth for us (Col. 1:15) so pre-human heavenly Jesus, like all of the angels, is also a spirit person.
When God resurrected dead Jesus, Jesus was resurrected back to his pre-human heavenly spirit body.- Hebrews 9:24
God's spirit is Not a person but it is what God uses.
God's spirit is a neuter "it" and Not a "he" according to Numbers 11:17,25 (newer KJV took the liberty to change it to he )
So, I agree there is No need for a separate third person, or that a third person is 1/3 of one person.

 

[Brent Mcnealy]

I believe in God alone as a Sole Being that os seperatefromf time and space itself. That which was in the beginning alone. That which all that came after owe their existance to.
There is no other. Other than all that which came after as far as I know.
I will not give This Gods credit of being to another.
So far anyways. Thats my belief.
We all can understand. We all can pray directly if its with correct staure and a good heart. Humility helps.
Faith has a pureity to it that is undefiled in its form. Hard to accuire for many of is. Even harder to hold.
God is alone in His wisdom and greatness and is the Beginning of all that has existed. God is in everything and is in all His creation the end.
God is One

 

[firedragon]

God is from Heaven thus God is a spirit person.

Didnt God create heaven?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I find that God "IS" love, and God sends forth His spirit - Psalms 104:30, God is from Heaven thus God is a spirit person.
God sent his first born of all creation from Heaven to Earth for us (Col. 1:15) so pre-human heavenly Jesus, like all of the angels, is also a spirit person.
When God resurrected dead Jesus, Jesus was resurrected back to his pre-human heavenly spirit body.- Hebrews 9:24
God's spirit is Not a person but it is what God uses.
God's spirit is a neuter "it" and Not a "he" according to Numbers 11:17,25 (newer KJV took the liberty to change it to he )
So, I agree there is No need for a separate third person, or that a third person is 1/3 of one person.

Thank you. You make a lot of sense.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I believe in God alone as a Sole Being that is separate from time and space itself. That which was in the beginning alone. That which all that came after owe their existance to.
There is no other. Other than all that which came after as far as I know.
I will not give This Gods credit of being to another.
So far anyways. Thats my belief.
We all can understand. We all can pray directly if its with correct staure and a good heart. Humility helps.
Faith has a pureity to it that is undefiled in its form. Hard to accuire for many of is. Even harder to hold.
God is alone in His wisdom and greatness and is the Beginning of all that has existed. God is in everything and is in all His creation the end.
God is One

Very interesting to say God alone as a: 'Sole Being'. That seems to match Scripture.
However, ' that which was in the beginning alone ' (aka God) doesn't quite match Scripture because God had No beginning - Psalms 90:2
God was Not in the beginning because God is from everlasting meaning: God had No beginning.
ALL come ' after ' God's heavenly Son was created - Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:13 B.
We come ' through ' heavenly Jesus who was created by his Creator, his Heavenly Father (Life Giver).
They are the 'us' found at Genesis 1:26.

 

[Brent Mcnealy]

Very interesting to say God alone as a: 'Sole Being'. That seems to match Scripture.
However, ' that which was in the beginning alone ' (aka God) doesn't quite match Scripture because God had No beginning - Psalms 90:2
God was Not in the beginning because God is from everlasting meaning: God had No beginning.
ALL come ' after ' God's heavenly Son was created - Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:13 B.
We come ' through ' heavenly Jesus who was created by his Creator, his Heavenly Father (Life Giver).
They are the 'us' found at Genesis 1:26.

In my belief God waz eternal from before time itself. Then for us and all creation everywhere Gos was in the beginning

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In my belief God waz eternal from before time itself. Then for us and all creation everywhere Gos was in the beginning

The existing ' before ' anything else would put the Bible God as being 'at ' the beginning of creation whether invisible heavens then material visible earth.
First, God was at creating the invisible realm of existence of which heavenly pre-human Jesus was the first - Colossians 1:15.
Then, He and His created Son were together when God through Son Jesus created the rest of creation.
This is why we direct prayers and 'pray to God' though Christ Jesus.- John 4:23-24

 

[Brent Mcnealy]

The existing ' before ' anything else would put the Bible God as being 'at ' the beginning of creation whether invisible heavens then material visible earth.
First, God was at creating the invisible realm of existence of which heavenly pre-human Jesus was the first - Colossians 1:15.
Then, He and His created Son were together when God through Son Jesus created the rest of creation.
This is why we direct prayers and 'pray to God' though Christ Jesus.- John 4:23-24

I am not a Christian. For me there are too many things I just can not believe.
For instance. (And this is only one) Christians state the only way to reach forgiveness and heaven is to know jesus christ and profess his name. Otherwise you reject his teachings and are lost.
Yet in my religion and belief. If there is a Muslim grandmother who was raised correctly in love from a child. Never heard of your jesus christ but believed instead in a Creator God named Alla.
If this kindly old women loved her children and grandchildren with all her heart. Kept the ten comandments to a large degree simply by the understanding in her heart. Even cared after strangers. And did most all thing accordingly untill death while feeling sorry for any time she herself slipped in her ethics and always strived to be better. While chastising herself for her slipping into sin
She would not be condemned after death and would be forgiven and in the next world eternal she would meet the family she loved as they also pass on and they would live in love and etermal spirit. My God is a loving and understanding God without meed of your christ. That would be true judgement as i would see it.
I am not a christian.
I only believe in the existance of a Simgle Creator God which existed nefore creation. To me all other messiahs across tje globe are simply trying to gather and collect the eternal souls that are in reality . . The Creators.
Example two. If you can endure. A christian woman is and acts nearly the same as the woman above in example one. Loving and caring uet believes in jesus as she was taught. She after passing also lives in eternal spirit and is forgiven any misgivings and when her loved one pass from this existance. If they loved her back as well They meet her as well in their eternal existance.
The God I nelieve in is forgiving and professes True Judgement. but since He created everything He has no need of a messiah to do his work for him. Other are simply coveting the souls of men.
Now on the otherside of it all. if a person hates others and destroys the Creators work without regard to its uniqueness amd wonder. And if a person causes others violent pain and heartache (such as in hate done to either grandmother above) then after passing from this world that person is shown and feels the pains they have caused upon other in a life review and are seperated away from those they would hurt in a lonely place void of the presence of any love for eternity. They in the end have not one innocent to prey upon ever. Its a lonely dark existance which is without any enjoyment. (Personally I have seen this place which creates great fear)
I myself do not believe in the need for a messiah to obtain life everlasting. I believe you need to respect Gods creation and live life accordingly
Before Creation and before time. dimensions. and space. God existed as the Eternal. In the beginning of creation, God created everything and everything came from Him. Everthing that was created including any angels, alien beings, prophets, messiahs, men, etc. . . came second
A grandmother of true respect and love is accepted regardless of race or taught customs or beliefs..
Anyone of true respect and love is respected by God regardless
Anyone who hates others because of their own refusal to understand how we are all equally a part of Gods creation. And acts with hate. dissrespect Undue violence. Or without love acts against the obvious purpose and will of the Creator of natural laws will see their folly after passing from this world and they will see how it effected others.
I have read ancient writings of men worldwide since the original cuniform writings in mesopatainia. I have completely read the Jewish old testamant and the Christian new testament. I have read the dead sea scrolls. I have read the Koran front to back. I have read the book of morman. Books on bhuddism. I have read ethics such as Kant. I have listened to the words of atheists. Did you know that yhete are books in the bible attributed to authors who most likelt did not write them?
Concerning Gods creation. I have given to the poor. I have prayed. I have planted gardens and looked after the planet in small ways where i could.
Who created it? Tell me its purpose.
I have also looked at the archeologiacl records in science to find religion before man bagan to write.. I have studied near death experiences.
etc. etc. etc etc.
I have attended a catholic church. I have attended a Church of christ, a nazerine church. a Baptist church. A Jewish synagog. And a Muslim
The Christians wotldwide throughout Gods creation do not have the corner of the market on religion. Noy even close. Nor are they the sole one and only collector of the souls of men. In my book that is covetness of something that belongs to God. In my belief a true prophet or messiah points the souls of men to the correct path then leaves them.
They would say. Seek God yourself if you will and no other among men or beings. Follow not me. Pray with a true heart. Seek and you shall find. Help those who are poor and of need. It gets you noticed. And if it be the will of God. He Himself shall answer you. I personally know he can without my being there to babysit you into my beliefs and falseified doctrines. My God is powerful. More powerful than I
In essence. Not coveting that which belongs to another.
In my book. God Himself forgives the Muslim grandmother and your jesus nor muhammad has no power there in that area
I am not a christian though i grew up there.
I believe God existed before time and creation.
I also believe we are near an end of it all. a dividing of time itself is coming and there will be a seperation between those who hate Gods creation and those who love it. Two existences amd two worlds are coming and time itself will divide.
These beliefs of mine do not come from all my studies.
Thry come from helping the poor and prayer.
They came in dreams and visions.
The relentless studies were a result of something I did not expect.
A result of a qurstioning and seeking for a true existing God if He did exist. 40 years ago. From all the while in looking helping those less fortunate who lived on the streets even though I myself had little.. And from hard praying while looking upwards in questioning endurance with a true heart.
God found me. His Spirit visited me and touched me. It has not always been easy. But I am now grateful for His true understanding





.

 

[Deeje]

Maybe it was Moses spirit.

Actually it wasn't a real event in the material sense because Jesus called it a "vision". The ones portrayed in the vision were symbolic.....
"As they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.” (Matthew 17:1-8; Matthew 22:35-40)

Jesus had promised his disciples that some of them would not pass away until they saw the son of man coming in his kingdom....

Mark 9:1-2...Jesus said to his apostles....
"Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Kingdom of God already having come in power.” 2 Six days later Jesus took Peter and James and John along and led them up into a lofty mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them".

They saw Jesus pictured as the mighty spirit King of God's Kingdom in the transfiguration.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.................. When Moses appeared to Jesus, it wasn't his physical body.

I find as with John the Baptist and King David that Moses is also still dead - Matthew 11:11; Acts of the Apostles 2:34; Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:39.
So, the transfiguration was a 'VISION' as Matthew informs us at Matthew 17:9.
Just a 'VISION' and No body. No physical body and No spirit (angelic) body.

 

[Deeje]

I am not a christian though i grew up there.

I grew up in a church too.

I believe God existed before time and creation.

Me too.

I also believe we are near an end of it all. a dividing of time itself is coming and there will be a seperation between those who hate Gods creation and those who love it.

I believe that the separation will be between those who love God...and those who do not.
Many who love creation have no love for God at all...they are avowed atheists.

Two existences amd two worlds are coming and time itself will divide.

Two worlds? What does this mean in actuality? What is the purpose? Where are these located?

These beliefs of mine do not come from all my studies.
Thry come from helping the poor and prayer.
They came in dreams and visions.
The relentless studies were a result of something I did not expect.
A result of a qurstioning and seeking for a true existing God if He did exist. 40 years ago. From all the while in looking helping those less fortunate who lived on the streets even though I myself had little.. And from hard praying while looking upwards in questioning endurance with a true heart.

That is interesting because I also had the experience of finding the truth....but 50 years ago.

I was raised in the Anglican church and the older I got the more the hypocrisy disturbed me. It seemed that everything Christ taught, the church skewed into something he didn't. And everything Jesus said to do, was somehow waved away and they justified whatever they pleased. That was not "Christianity" to me, so I left to begin my own search for God. I knew he wasn't in Christendom.

I looked in many places but did not find him.....so I tried evolution to explain our existence but everything just pointed to a purposeful and loving Creator......so, after almost giving up, like yourself....God found me....but not the way you experienced. This was a knock at my door and two ladies standing there with a Bible wanting to tell me about God's kingdom.

I had lumped all "Christians" in the same basket of uselessness and hypocrisy, so I played along with them and asked the hard questions that my church said were too difficult to answer, intent to send them on their way with their tails between their legs. To my complete surprise, they opened their Bible and showed me the answers, straight up. I was a bit shocked because no one had ever done that for me before, and from what I had heard, these were the last people on earth I expected could tell me anything!

The Q & A sessions that followed lasted for hours and I liked what I heard....it was all new....nothing like what I was taught in church. It ignited a hunger in me that I never knew was there. I wanted to know everything!

God found me. His Spirit visited me and touched me. It has not always been easy. But I am now grateful for His true understanding

I also had a similar experience but minus the dreams and visions. God found me by introducing me to his spiritual family...the ones who were doing what Jesus' Father commanded and who were teaching others to become teachers themselves. You see, from my studies, I realized that Christians cannot be a "one man band" or a "lone ranger" as I call them. Christ formed a brotherhood of like minded individuals who all accepted the same truth and them went out and taught others. They met regularly for worship and instruction from God's word. They were at peace with the world and with each other....non political and non violent, as Jesus commanded.

Can I ask if you have a brotherhood of like minded ones who believe as you do? I see that you do not identify as "Christian" so what would you call yourself, and what benefit do you derive from apparently being someone who just "privately believes" whatever it is that you hold as your truth?

Based on the criteria for the 'separation' that you believe is coming, what do you see as the end result of that separation? What did God put us on this planet for....and what has he been doing all this time that humans have been suffering? Is there a reason for it?

I am interested to hear your viewpoint....

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In my belief God was eternal from before time itself..................

To me 'eternal' could encompass ' time'. For each second of time we can count we can count both forwards and backwards forever and ever with No ending ever.

 

[Deeje]

Didnt God create heaven?

Yes...but all creation came through his firstborn son, under instructions from his Father who was working at his side. (Colossians 1:15-17; Proverbs 8:30-31)

We have no idea what realm God resided in before mention of the spirit realm we call heaven but perhaps it was always there, like God. He had to exist somewhere...didn't he?

Jesus spoke of the abiding place of God when he taught his disciples to pray...."Our Father who art in heaven....."

We know that the spirit realm is inhabited with spirit beings because Jesus is called God's firstborn and he is the commander of the Angels. We also know that the spirit realm existed before material creation because the angels were said to applaud the result. (Job 38:1-7)

 

[firedragon]

Yes...but all creation came through his firstborn son, under instructions from his Father who was working at his side. (Colossians 1:15-17; Proverbs 8:30-31)

We have no idea what realm God resided in before mention of the spirit realm we call heaven but perhaps it was always there, like God. He had to exist somewhere...didn't he?

Jesus spoke of the abiding place of God when he taught his disciples to pray...."Our Father who art in heaven....."

We know that the spirit realm is inhabited with spirit beings because Jesus is called God's firstborn and he is the commander of the Angels. We also know that the spirit realm existed before material creation because the angels were said to applaud the result. (Job 38:1-7)

hmm. Okay. Thank you very much for the clarification.

 

[Colt]

Do you believe in the trinity?

Why? Why not?

Yes, but Jesus isn't the second person of the Trinity, he's a creation of the Trinity. Jesus, aka Christ Michael, is a Creator Son.