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Question to Christians - If Jews in Israel had accepted Jesus what would have happened?

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Ehav4Ever, Oct 26, 2020.

  1. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Question to Christians:

    Question #1
    According to Christianity, if Jews living in the land of Israel during the 2nd Temple period, in the midst of the Roman occupation, had accepted Jesus as the Christian concept of messiah, what would have happened?
    • Moments after?
    • Five years after?
    • Etc.
    Question #2
    According to Christianity, if Jews living in the land of Israel during the 2nd Temple period, in the midst of the Roman occupation, had accepted Jesus as the Christian concept of messiah, ten minutes after his crucifixion what would have happened?
    • Moments after?
    • Five years after?
    • Etc.
     
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  2. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I'm not sure I understand for the following reason:

    1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

    1. So... 5 hundred believed Jesus is the Messiah during the Feast of Weeks - all Jewish
    2. Three thousand Jewish people believe in Acts2: 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
    3. Then more Jewish people were added daily Acts 2: 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
    4. Then after the miracle of a lame man walking another 5 thousand Jews believed Acts 4: 4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
    5. Then Jewish multitudes were added Acts 5: 14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
    6. Then Jewish priests were added: Acts 6: 7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

    And it continues... so the 5 year etc... is already recorded.

    That's a good question...don't know how to factor that out. More that what really happened?
     
  3. Eyes to See

    Eyes to See Active Member

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    The pure form of Christianity is based solely on God's word the Bible, so the question is what does the Bible teach? And the Christian Greek scriptures while saying a little about what would have happened don't talk much about it and that is because the Hebrew scriptures already foretold what was going to happen when the Messiah appeared.

    Daniel gave a prophecy of 70 weeks of years. In it Jehovah God reveals when the Messiah would appear and what would happen to him. And in turn he foretells what would happen to Jerusalem and the temple, the second temple, and this was when Daniel was in Babylon and the second temple hadn't even been built yet:

    "You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress.

    “And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself
    ."
    -Daniel 9:25, 26.

    It is important to establish these facts then we will read the following verse in Daniel's vision telling us what had already been decided upon for Jerusalem and the second temple that was to be built and would be in existence when the Messiaah appeared on earth.

    Firstly the call that went forth to rebuild Jerusalem happened in 455 B. C. E. You can use the book of Nehemiah to determine this. Nehemiah 2:1-8 shows us that Artaxerxes Longimanus granted him permission to return to Jerusalem to rebuild its walls and the gates of the city. It says that this happened in his "20th year:"

    "In the month of Niʹsan, in the 20th year of King Ar·ta·xerxʹes..."-Nehemiah 2:1.


    Counting from the 20th year of King Artaxerxes which was in 455 B. C. E. 69 weeks of years you come to the year 29. C. E. That is when Jesus was baptized with holy spirit and began the preaching work of God's kingdom. Daniel 9:26 tells us that the Messiah would be "cut off" that is put to death after the 62 weeks (there were 7 weeks or 49 years which it took to completely rebuild Jerusalem and then another 62 weeks of years which total 483 years.)

    Verse 27 tells us that during the 70th week of years (the period between 29 C. E. and 36 C. E.) the Messiah would cause gift offerings to cease at the half of the week, that is 3 1/2 years in. On Nisan 14, 33 C. E. Jesus Christ was impaled on a torture stake and put to death, at that very instant the curtain separating the Holy from the Most Holy in the temple was rent in two:

    "“And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease."-Daniel 9:27.
    "And look! the curtain of the sanctuary was torn in two, from top to bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split."-Matthew 27:51.

    This was symbolic of the fact that not only had Jesus fulfilled the law and done away with it, but also the Most Holy with its shekinah light representing Jehovah's presence had been transferred from the typical representation in the temple to heaven itself.

    Now that we have the exact date from Daniel's prophecy of when Messiah was to be "cut off" that is put to death, what other further detail does Jehovah reveal about the city and its temple? This:

    "“And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations."-Daniel 9:26.

    Here Daniel was told that "the people of a leader" that is the Roman armies would come and destroy the city and the holy place. Why? "And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations."-Daniel 9:26.

    Daniel already foretold that what had already been decided upon for Jerusalem and its city was destruction and it is in the prophecy along with when the Messiah would be put to death. So Jehovah had already foreseen the Jewish race as a whole as rejecting the Messiah and putting him to death. Because of that Jehovah would have Jerusalem and its temple destroyed. And that took place just as was foretold.

    Now what exactly would have been the outcome if the Jewish race did not reject the Messiah and put him to death? Jehovah never even gives the idea a thought as he already foretold what was going to happen many centuries before it did. But initially Jehovah did promise the nation of Israel that if they kept the covenant they made with him at Mount Sinai that they would become to him a kingdom of priests:

    "Now if you will strictly obey my voice and keep my covenant, you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples, for the whole earth belongs to me. You will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to say to the Israelites.”-Exodus 19:5-6.

    Since the Jews as a nation rejected the Messiah and put him to death as Jehovah foretold they would do they were rejected as a people and did not enter into the New Covenant for a kingdom of priests. (In the Law Covenant only the tribe of Levi had the preisthood, they were not a nation of priests). Jesus Christ would have been their high priest.

    But now Jesus Christ is the high priest of the Christian congregation made up of originally Jews, but very few. Most are people of the nations and to them Peter, a Jew, and apostle of Jesus Christ was inspired by Jehovah God to write:

    "But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies” of the One who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. For you were once not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not been shown mercy, but now you have received mercy."-1 Peter 2:9-10.

    So the promise for a kingdom of priests was given to the anointed Christian congregation. All those called and chosen by God will go to heaven and reign with Jesus Christ in his kingdom over the earth, both as kings, and as priests:

    (Revelation 5:10) and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

    (Revelation 20:6) Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.


    This promise was given to the anointed Christian congregation because the Jews lacked faith and put the Messiah to death. We could speculate on how it would have been different if they were obedient to the word because the promise was going to be given to them. But it is pointless. Jehovah God in the Hebrew scriptures didn't even hold out the thought. He promised that he would give the covenant to people other than the Jews long before Messiah came to earth and was put to death by them:

    "They have incited me to fury with what is not a god;
    They have offended me with their worthless idols.
    So I will incite them to jealousy with what is not a people;
    I will offend them with a foolish nation."

    -Deuteronomy 32:21.

    That prophecy was made way back in Moses' day. So at the very beginning Jehovah already foretold the outcome for the Jewish race.

    (Hosea 2:23) I will sow her like seed for myself in the earth, And I will show mercy to her who was not shown mercy; I will say to those not my people: “You are my people,” And they will say: “You are my God.”’”

    (Romans 9:25) It is as he says also in Ho·seʹa: “Those not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not loved, ‘beloved’;

    (Romans 11:11) So I ask, They did not stumble and fall completely, did they? Certainly not! But by their false step, there is salvation to people of the nations, to incite them to jealousy.

    (1 Peter 2:10) For you were once not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not been shown mercy, but now you have received mercy.
     
    #3 Eyes to See, Oct 26, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
  4. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Maybe they did? In that case we know that they became various groups, one Rabbinic which celebrated a new festival of lights. One rejected rabbinical methods and pursued other methods of continuing Judaism, insisting that the next temple must be non-physical and superior to the previous ones and would call its self universal Judaism. Another called itself the Ebionites and still others had other names. The timing is suspect, however, as the temple is destroyed in 33AD. 'Moments after' and 'Five years after' are both decades before the event which would make any of it necessary. The earliest fragments of gospels and other writings only carbon date to something like 60AD or 120AD, well after the temple's destruction though they contain predictions of the temple's destruction. Many people find this evidence of Jesus power to predict the fall of the temple. I'd say that most Jews seem to be credulous about that claim. You guys are so skeptical sometimes.

    Most people have read Paul's comments about this. He says that some Jews had to fall away in order for gentiles to be 'Grafted' on. (Romans 11) A lot of things we don't we don't know about this, like why. We have some vague allusions to threats by some prophets but that's all.

    We also don't understand the symbolism, generally, of grafting or when that usage came into use in Judaism; however nothing is forgotten forever. I have become aware that it was used in Judaism even a long time ago, long before Jesus or Paul referred to the vine. Most people don't understand the symbolism of the vine. I have had trouble tracking down information about it and have had to rely upon old pictures of synagogue walls and depictions of the lampstand. In fact its also not explained in Jewish resources very clearly that this symbol relates to continuity as does Aaron's rod. Plants die, but they make seeds. Through the seeds the plants live, and its always been thought miraculous. Long before anyone ever wrote about aaron's rod coming to life almond represented this principle of continuity and permanence. The lampstand also connects in ancient imagery to the infinite labyrinth and the snake eating its own tail.

    So when Paul says some must fall away in order for gentiles to be grafted on he's suggesting that gentiles must be part of the total vine in order for it to achieve its ideal form.

    Therefore of course some groups of Jews would have rejected this and some would have been intrigued by it.
    Some, moments after, would have thought it was interesting what with Roman prancing about all over. Some would not. The same would be five years after and so forth. After two centuries some groups decided to part company with one another. No doubt there were many hugs and tears, and some bravely went this way and another that.

    Either way this bit about grafting is part of Paul's threat to Christians which has largely been ignored -- the threat that gentiles can be removed from the vine if they start boasting over the original branches. It means something like churches can be snuffed out or cease to be relevant or something like that. Nobody talks about it, but I think about it.

    You know what it reminds me of is when Moses gets told that Israel could be wiped out and restarted through him, alone -- that time that Moses fasts on a mountain and begs that Israel not be wiped out. Everybody can simply be snipped. The message of Paul seems to be that everyone is disposable and the Christians better not start thinking of themselves as superior to Jews and acting like idiots. Why he'd think some Jews had to fall away for gentiles to get grafted on...not sure. Why can't more people be grafted on without anyone falling away? Its curious.
     
  5. Eyes to See

    Eyes to See Active Member

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    That is because there is a number that was to be filled. It is a definite number. Once it is filled up there are no more slots so to speak. They were to be filled by Jews. But not enough remained loyal to Jehovah. So he had to replace those spots originally left for them to people of the nations. The number is 144,000. Those are the amount of people God has predetermined from the start that would go to heaven to rule with Christ.

    And you make a good point about the Christian congregation not getting puffed up. God does not need anyone or anything. It is only by means of his great mercy and his extreme undeserved kindness that this arrangement exists. And a Christian, whether they are anointed to go to heaven or not, need remain humble and recognize their place and God's mercy upon them.
     
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  6. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    Is it? Christians didn't have a "bible" for the first few hundred years. So I doubt what you say is true. It's not based on "the Bible". I thought the pure form of Christianity is based solely on Love. "Love is the fulfillment of the law." The law will be written on the heart, not on ink and paper.
     
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  7. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    I had never heard that. Paul either means that some fell away for our sake or else that we were lucky that some did creating space, but the phrasing sounds like it was for our sakes. I hope that isn't what he says, but maybe he does. Personally I think the number 144 thousand is probably not an actual count and is more like 40 or 400 etc. Its in Revelation which tends to have symbolic numbers.
     
  8. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    According to historical records, they would have been part of the first century Christian congregation. (Acts 2:5, Acts 18:1-11)
    They would thus have avoided the actions of the Jews that opposed Jesus' followers, and would have escaped Gehenna. (Matthew 23:15, 33)

    As regards the future, according to the hope declared in the Hebrew text, they would have made up the seed of Abraham. Genesis 3:15 ; Genesis 22:18
     
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