Question to Atheists: Living for here and now or living for a place with God in the next.

[TagliatelliMonster]

Why is that?

Because the motivation is corrupt and morally bankrupt as a result.

You can have both intentions, to help the person, and also appreciate the reward you gain for yourself out of that. It is it wrong to love oneself and hope to be rewarded?

It is, if that becomes a pre-requisite for acting morally.

 

[Link]

So do you think that atheists can be moral? And if that is the case, how is that possible?

From Islamic viewpoint, signs of God and faith in them is linked to goodness. It's what direction we heading that is most important. While, good deeds are possible for all humans, they are almost always mixed with chaotic evil deeds, that cancel them out.

Iblis and his forces pull us down while God's Guides pull us up towards God and towards his light. We choose between the two calls and the two commands, to believe or disbelieve.

In Islam, good deeds everyone does them, avoiding evil and striving to draw close to God through good deeds, that takes piety and that is what is we are tested for. That and belief in God's signs whether Quran or unseen lights of God, the test of God's Messengers is not easy, but it's not too difficult. With a little humbleness, it becomes easy to become enlightened.

The problem with me, when I was in limbo, I really didn't choose between God and Dunya, and really wanted the fun life. Once you make the choice God is higher and better reward, everything becomes easier.

Good and evil are magical in nature, and so is faith and disbelief with respect to the dark sorcery (given in to it and not fighting it off) and faith in God's signs (seeing the light with power from God).

 

[Kfox]

My question to atheists or people who doubt God, have you tried reaching out to Mohammad (s) and his family (a) and asking God to intercede on your path through them appearing as light? Or do you find this impossible to sincerely do as long as you doubt God? If so, please explain why.

I find it impossible to sincerely do as long as I doubt God. After all; how is it possible to sincerely reach out to something I am convinced does not exist? Sounds like a catch 22 to me.

 

[Clara Tea]

There are many ranks in this world, from prestige, reputation, richness, career, etc.

The Quran argues the variance in ranks in the next world are even bigger but those depend on our deeds and faith and state we die in.

Let's take away fear of hell for one moment. Say everyone enters paradise.

To me, even this was the case, because this are chance to attain rank with God, and prove ourselves to Him, we shouldn't live for just temporary moments, but for God and the Next World.

We should try to attain as much as possible speed in traveling towards God and ascending to him.

Now the fact is, since, preferring temporary pleasures and gains, over God and next, aside from that usually those pleasures are based on intoxication from Iblis' magic, but say it was not a falsehood and had truth. Just from the viewpoint that God is better and more lasting in reward, makes such a decision to choose this world over God so evil, an act of great insolence towards God, that he does merit his wrath in the next world.

So how foolish is it given missing out on reward from God and not racing towards ranks that remain and reward and relationship with God that is everlasting, for temporary gains, and but how more so with the threat of fire.

Why choose this world? The Quran shows it comes out of one thing and one thing only. People doubt God and next world.

Take away that doubt, and people would choose God and next world.

So why doesn't God just remove doubt off everyone?

To me this is the trial. Evil deeds build up uncleanness, the uncleanness is that disquiet doubt. However, we can slay it. We can slay the darkness within.

The moment a soul decides to slay the disquiet doubt with reason, is the moment it sees God clearly.

There is also the leap of faith one can take, and talk to who they believe would be God's representatives. In this case, they can also cleanse us of the dark murk and destroy the doubt, by connecting with us and connecting us to God and making us see the light and higher realms.

This method might seem impossible, but in fact, it's practical. People can doubt at various degrees but know which religion would be truth if God existed. Then you take a leap of faith and ask the interceders to intervene on your path and help you by God's permission.

God should also be prayed to even if one doesn't know for sure he exists.


My question to atheists or people who doubt God, have you tried reaching out to Mohammad (s) and his family (a) and asking God to intercede on your path through them appearing as light? Or do you find this impossible to sincerely do as long as you doubt God? If so, please explain why.

Settle for low rank? Sit around heaven drinking beer, playing poker, smoking cigars, watching (angel) strippers?

Many in the lower ranks have given up. They realize that possessions are not about deeds (deed of house means that you own the house). Rather, he who controls the house, is the real owner. Thus, coming out of Catholic school, the kids grafitti property (it's okay....they'll be forgiven....we nailed some guy to a cross to make sure of that), and that grafitti marks their turf. They control the narcotics sales in that area. They shoot interlopers (rival gangs).

So, home owners are frustrated with constant thefts, vandalism, and grafitti, and that is because the real owner is the one with the spray paint can.

We pay the government to keep our neighborhoods clean. This means that the Catholic grafitti vandals can spray paint our fences twice per day, and then call county code enforcers to fine us a lot of money (thousands of dollars) if they see any grafitti at all.

The rich wonder how the poor can survive. Many of the poor steal. I wonder how the people that they steal from can survive. Envy ends where theft begins.

Does greed get us into heaven? Greedy slave traders beat and murdered Blacks (they are rich, so on Hotten's List of Men of Quality).

Money doesn't do us any good at the end of our lives....we can't take it with us....we can't bribe God. However, it is possible to do a great deal of good with money.

But, since we can't be greedy with money in heaven, maybe there is another type of greed? Greed to get into heaven? Greed to increase rank in heaven?

Maybe the incentives offered by heaven make people better because they try not to sin? But, like the grafitti vandals, they believe that all is forgiven, so they continue to sin.

Will those who are greedy to increase their rank in heaven go to heaven at all? Maybe greed is not allowed in heaven? If one does good deeds for the wrong reasons, are they truly good deeds? If they do good deeds to benefit themselves (increase their rank in heaven), they don't really have goodness in their hearts, they have greed in their hearts.

 

[Clara Tea]

I find it impossible to sincerely do as long as I doubt God. After all; how is it possible to sincerely reach out to something I am convinced does not exist? Sounds like a catch 22 to me.

Theists greedily pursue afterlife rewards (but it isn't a good dead if not done with good intent, and if the intent is to promote yourself in heaven for all eternity, it isn't a good deed). Theists believe that they will be forgiven for their sins (so they continue to sin).

Atheists have a moral compass not hinged on theism.

 

[firedragon]

Settle for low rank? Sit around heaven drinking beer, playing poker, smoking cigars, watching (angel) strippers?

Many in the lower ranks have given up. They realize that possessions are not about deeds (deed of house means that you own the house). Rather, he who controls the house, is the real owner. Thus, coming out of Catholic school, the kids grafitti property (it's okay....they'll be forgiven....we nailed some guy to a cross to make sure of that), and that grafitti marks their turf. They control the narcotics sales in that area. They shoot interlopers (rival gangs).

So, home owners are frustrated with constant thefts, vandalism, and grafitti, and that is because the real owner is the one with the spray paint can.

We pay the government to keep our neighborhoods clean. This means that the Catholic grafitti vandals can spray paint our fences twice per day, and then call county code enforcers to fine us a lot of money (thousands of dollars) if they see any grafitti at all.

The rich wonder how the poor can survive. Many of the poor steal. I wonder how the people that they steal from can survive. Envy ends where theft begins.

Does greed get us into heaven? Greedy slave traders beat and murdered Blacks (they are rich, so on Hotten's List of Men of Quality).

Money doesn't do us any good at the end of our lives....we can't take it with us....we can't bribe God. However, it is possible to do a great deal of good with money.

But, since we can't be greedy with money in heaven, maybe there is another type of greed? Greed to get into heaven? Greed to increase rank in heaven?

Maybe the incentives offered by heaven make people better because they try not to sin? But, like the grafitti vandals, they believe that all is forgiven, so they continue to sin.

Will those who are greedy to increase their rank in heaven go to heaven at all? Maybe greed is not allowed in heaven? If one does good deeds for the wrong reasons, are they truly good deeds? If they do good deeds to benefit themselves (increase their rank in heaven), they don't really have goodness in their hearts, they have greed in their hearts.

Its not like I am a great fan of stories. But there was a story.

In Islam, the oldest tradition is called the school of Medina. I mean its really really old. It is the most authentic school of thought. And the champion is called Malik Ibn Anas. In general orthodox Islam he is the guy who has the so called "Golden chain" which means he has the most authentic ahadith collection with one of the most sophisticated and strong chain of narrators.

Well. Nevermind that.

The story is that he went to court to bail out a drunkard. This guy was a real drunkard. Which means they had free alcohol around and there was no banning. A muslim can go drink as he pleases and his deal is with God, not with the authorities. So this drunkard dude had a brawl in a pub, and was arrested, and Imam Malik, the Sheikhul Islam, the most respected Jurist ever went to the courts to bail him out because thought he was no friend of his, he knew him. He was apparently one of his neighbours.

In Islam, none of these things are primary.

Im gonna stop now. Just understand, none of these things were considered primary. They are peripheral matters. The primary matter is "zalikal Kithaaba hudhallil muththaqeen".

Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

So do you think that atheists can be moral? And if that is the case, how is that possible? is it because God wills it, because isn't it morally wrong in a sense to doubt God?

The Islamic conception is that human beings are born with a Fithrah. So they are all born moral. That is why you are moral.

Maybe you won't believe it. But that is the concept of Islam. Even if you dont accept it Im just saying what is Islamic.

Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

I find it impossible to sincerely do as long as I doubt God. After all; how is it possible to sincerely reach out to something I am convinced does not exist? Sounds like a catch 22 to me.

Its a fair statement I suppose.

But why are you convinced "IT" doesnt exist? Because of lack of evidence?

Just state your case.

Cheers.

 

[Bird123]

There are many ranks in this world, from prestige, reputation, richness, career, etc.

The Quran argues the variance in ranks in the next world are even bigger but those depend on our deeds and faith and state we die in.

Let's take away fear of hell for one moment. Say everyone enters paradise.

To me, even this was the case, because this are chance to attain rank with God, and prove ourselves to Him, we shouldn't live for just temporary moments, but for God and the Next World.

We should try to attain as much as possible speed in traveling towards God and ascending to him.

Now the fact is, since, preferring temporary pleasures and gains, over God and next, aside from that usually those pleasures are based on intoxication from Iblis' magic, but say it was not a falsehood and had truth. Just from the viewpoint that God is better and more lasting in reward, makes such a decision to choose this world over God so evil, an act of great insolence towards God, that he does merit his wrath in the next world.

So how foolish is it given missing out on reward from God and not racing towards ranks that remain and reward and relationship with God that is everlasting, for temporary gains, and but how more so with the threat of fire.

Why choose this world? The Quran shows it comes out of one thing and one thing only. People doubt God and next world.

Take away that doubt, and people would choose God and next world.

So why doesn't God just remove doubt off everyone?

To me this is the trial. Evil deeds build up uncleanness, the uncleanness is that disquiet doubt. However, we can slay it. We can slay the darkness within.

The moment a soul decides to slay the disquiet doubt with reason, is the moment it sees God clearly.

There is also the leap of faith one can take, and talk to who they believe would be God's representatives. In this case, they can also cleanse us of the dark murk and destroy the doubt, by connecting with us and connecting us to God and making us see the light and higher realms.

This method might seem impossible, but in fact, it's practical. People can doubt at various degrees but know which religion would be truth if God existed. Then you take a leap of faith and ask the interceders to intervene on your path and help you by God's permission.

God should also be prayed to even if one doesn't know for sure he exists.


My question to atheists or people who doubt God, have you tried reaching out to Mohammad (s) and his family (a) and asking God to intercede on your path through them appearing as light? Or do you find this impossible to sincerely do as long as you doubt God? If so, please explain why.

How little you really understand God at all. It seems religion and maybe society has corrupted your thinking into valuing the petty things mankind holds so dear.

Do you really think God is going to have ranks among His children? Do you create ranks or favorites among your children? God is Unconditional Love. Unconditional Love always does what is Best for the other. Is it really best for your children to have ranks creating situations where so many will feel slighted?? I'm here to tell you. That isn't God. That isn't even an intelligent thing to do.

God allows free choice for good reason. It's the only way for people to really learn. Evil isn't evil. It's a lack of Knowledge. When one understands all sides, Intelligence will make the best choices. This is why God does not stop those bad choices. People learn from them.

This is what I see. It's very clear. I have no doubts.

 

[blü 2]

There are many ranks in this world, from prestige, reputation, richness, career, etc.

The Quran argues the variance in ranks in the next world are even bigger but those depend on our deeds and faith and state we die in.

This is where you'd normally lose a large part of your nonbelieving readers.

Let's take away fear of hell for one moment. Say everyone enters paradise.

Nonbelievers have already taken away both of those.

To me, even this was the case, because this are chance to attain rank with God, and prove ourselves to Him, we shouldn't live for just temporary moments, but for God and the Next World.

My own view as a nonbeliever is that we should live moral lives ─ treat others with decency, respect and inclusion. As for why, I'd say to do so can help create interpersonal and intergroup harmony, which is a good way to live. (I include common sense in pursuing these desires.)

 

[Kfox]

Its a fair statement I suppose.

But why are you convinced "IT" doesnt exist? Because of lack of evidence?

Just state your case.

Cheers.

If I cannot experience it with one or more of my five senses, I will assume it does not exist.

 

[firedragon]

If I cannot experience it with one or more of my five senses, I will assume it does not exist.

Like a great, great, great grandfather? You will assume you had one?

Think a bit.

 

[QuestioningMind]

No one wants anyone pretending to believe. It's about perception and noticing what we perceive. Jinn and Angels exist. Fully perceiving them is hard, but we can have some sort of sense of them, if they exist. They aren't part of the world with us for no reason.

You wrote:

If not Islam, I would probably incline to soothsaying religion and seek help from magical pixies (and probably would end up believing in them - they are called Jinn in Quran).

So you're so desperate to convince yourself that you have answers to questions that may be unanswerable that you're willing to pretend that you believe in any unsubstantiated claim as long as it helps you to delude yourself into believing you have answers.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

To living a life to make sure you die honorable in eyes of a Creator (who ended up not existing) would be a waste? In what way? Those temporary pleasures would be gone. So what if they didn't happen. It's not that bad of an idea to sacrifice as much of pleasures for next world, because if we lost next, we lose it all in the long run.

What is it that prevents you from understanding this simple fact: I DO NOT BELIEVE IN A CREATOR NOR A NEXT LIFE.

Please, make a tiny effort to understand: these are fantasy ideas to me. I do not accept them. Therefore there is nothing I need to do about them. This is not hard...

 

[Kfox]

Like a great, great, great grandfather? You will assume you had one?

Think a bit.

C'mon; everybody has a great, great, great grandfather. I was talking about the "IT" that you was speaking of. You know; the "IT" that is not human, that regularly preform acts outside the laws of nature, the "IT" that is invisible, inaudible, non detectable; 3 traits that is the perfect description of something that does not exist yet you would swear up and down that IT is real, THAT is what I was talking about.

 

[F1fan]

Could be if you like truth. If there is a deity, who is more qualified to give you?

A better deity, if it exists.

That's the problem with not knowing if any deities exist, there can always be a better claimed to exist.

 

[firedragon]

C'mon; everybody has a great, great, great grandfather.

Right. So a rhetoric like that can be repeated.

C'mon; everybody has knows there is a necessary being.

 

[blü 2]

Its a fair statement I suppose.

But why are you convinced "IT" doesnt exist? Because of lack of evidence?

Just state your case.

Cheers.

Same old threshold problem: what real thing ─ thing not purely imaginary/conceptual, thing with objective existence ─ is intended to be denoted by the word "God" (or in this case the pronoun IT)? What objective test will tell us whether any real candidate we find is God or not?

 

[viole]

C'mon; everybody has knows there is a necessary being.

Nope. Simply not true.Unless you prove it to us.

Ciao

- viole

 

[oldbadger]

There are many ranks in this world, from prestige, reputation, richness, career, etc.

The Quran argues the variance in ranks in the next world are even bigger but those depend on our deeds and faith and state we die in.

Let's take away fear of hell for one moment. Say everyone enters paradise.

To me, even this was the case, because this are chance to attain rank with God, and prove ourselves to Him, we shouldn't live for just temporary moments, but for God and the Next World.

We should try to attain as much as possible speed in traveling towards God and ascending to him.

Now the fact is, since, preferring temporary pleasures and gains, over God and next, aside from that usually those pleasures are based on intoxication from Iblis' magic, but say it was not a falsehood and had truth. Just from the viewpoint that God is better and more lasting in reward, makes such a decision to choose this world over God so evil, an act of great insolence towards God, that he does merit his wrath in the next world.

So how foolish is it given missing out on reward from God and not racing towards ranks that remain and reward and relationship with God that is everlasting, for temporary gains, and but how more so with the threat of fire.

Why choose this world? The Quran shows it comes out of one thing and one thing only. People doubt God and next world.

Take away that doubt, and people would choose God and next world.

So why doesn't God just remove doubt off everyone?

To me this is the trial. Evil deeds build up uncleanness, the uncleanness is that disquiet doubt. However, we can slay it. We can slay the darkness within.

The moment a soul decides to slay the disquiet doubt with reason, is the moment it sees God clearly.

There is also the leap of faith one can take, and talk to who they believe would be God's representatives. In this case, they can also cleanse us of the dark murk and destroy the doubt, by connecting with us and connecting us to God and making us see the light and higher realms.

This method might seem impossible, but in fact, it's practical. People can doubt at various degrees but know which religion would be truth if God existed. Then you take a leap of faith and ask the interceders to intervene on your path and help you by God's permission.

God should also be prayed to even if one doesn't know for sure he exists.


My question to atheists or people who doubt God, have you tried reaching out to Mohammad (s) and his family (a) and asking God to intercede on your path through them appearing as light? Or do you find this impossible to sincerely do as long as you doubt God? If so, please explain why.

No.......... I am a Deist, who like atheists does not believe in an involved, interested or even aware God.
So suggestions that there is a paradise full of yet more wealth, status, prestige, rank and position leaves me quite disinterested, just as it disinterests me now in this world.