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Question to all jws about something I found

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Frank Goad, Apr 2, 2020.

  1. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    I look all over the internet and look at websites that look at the bible and say the soul leaves the body and goes to heaven.So I can compare them to the jw bible at https://www.jw.org/en/ .One of the things that got to me is on this website: Is soul sleep biblical? What got to me is how they take something jesus said in the part of the website called the bible uses descriptions based on appearance.Can you go to the website and read what it says there and come back here to explain it to me?Because I still believe in Ecclesiastes 9:5.
     
    #1 Frank Goad, Apr 2, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
  2. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    jw עדי יהווה
    try theses towers
    9:5 w05 8/15 3; g98 7/8 31; w97 2/15 16; w95 5/15 4-5; w95 6/1 7; g89 5/8 31
    for a better understanding
     
  3. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the reply!:) I hope I get more as time goes on.:)
     
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    From your website.....(My response in blue)


    ‘Going to his fathers’ (forefathers) simply means joining them in the grave (sheol) as it says.."you will be BURIED in a good old age"....the place in Hebrew where we all go is "sheol". (Ecclesiastes 9:10)

    'Giving up your spirit' means breathing your last breath. When that happens, all thought processes cease.
    "His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;
    On that very day his thoughts perish." (Psalm 146:4)

    The spirit "goes out" like a light or a candle goes out.....it is extinguished.


    Same as above.


    Joining his forebears in the grave.....it is the ultimate destiny for all of us. The common grave of mankind was opened by Adam's disobedience....it will be closed by Jesus.

    David was speaking about joining his dead infant son in death, knowing that he could not bring him back, he wanted to join him in the grave....feeling the weight of his guilt because of the circumstances of his conception. (David’s affair with another man’s wife and his subsequent attempt to cover it up by manipulating the death of her husband.)

    We have discussed before that there is a difference between the 'soul' and the 'spirit'....two words which in Scripture, mean two different things.

    A ”soul” is a living breathing creature....the word “soul” can be replaced by “life” because this is essentially what it means.

    The “spirit” is the “breath of life”.....the animating force in all living things that animates them. It’s what God gave Adam to start him breathing. Breathing oxygenates all the cells in the body and perpetuates life....when we breathe our last breath, our cells die and all conscious existence ceases. The seat of all consciousness is in our brain....it is the first to die through lack of oxygen.


    It doesn’t mean that they were buried in the same place geographically, but all ended up in the same place as their forefathers.....the common grave of all mankind. As it says in Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10.....oftentime they did request to be buried with their forefathers on Israel's soil.

    The ancient Jews had no belief in an afterlife.....it was gleaned later from the pagans.

    "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

    Your source ignores verse 10.


    "Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going."

     
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  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Continued....

    Taking a parable and making it literal is very misleading.....this is the most misinterpreted parables there is. There is no "place" for the "righteous dead" and a different place for the "unrighteous" ones. According to John 5:28-29 Jesus calls both from the same place in the resurrection.

    "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."
    (see Acts 24:15)


    This is easily answered...just as the living can "congregate" in all parts of the earth....so can the dead. They all go to the same place..."sheol"....the grave....the location of the grave is irrelevant.

    When God's people congregate, he does not see them isolated from one another, but he sees them united as his people all over the world....one global congregation. He sees all the dead in one place too.....the common grave of mankind.


    The definition of "sheol" according to Strongs, is "underworld, grave, hell, pit" Sheol is equivalent to "hades" in Greek. This is not Christendom's "hell" but simply the place where all the dead go.....buried in the "nether" (lowest) regions of the earth.

    From the Tanakh....Ezekiel 32:21...this is a judgment message against Egypt....
    "The strongest of the mighty men shall speak of him from the midst of the Grave and with his helpers; the uncircumcised, those slain by the sword, descended and lay down.

    Quite simply this scripture does not have the meaning that is attributed to it. The slain ones "speak" in a figurative way to those who join them. Read the whole chapter.

    If you substitute the word "life" for "soul...and "breath" for "spirit" in the following scriptures, you will arrive at the correct understanding that agrees with what the entire Bible teaches.

    "It happened, as her soul (life) was departing (for she died), that she named him Benoni, but his father named him Benjamin.” Genesis 35:18

    “He stretched himself on the child three times, and cried to Yahweh, and said, ‘Yahweh my God, please let this child's soul (life) come into him again’. Yahweh listened to the voice of Elijah; and the soul (life) of the child came into him again, and he revived." 1 Kings 17:21-22

    Her spirit (breath) returned, and she rose up immediately. He commanded that something be given to her to eat.” Luke 8:55

    “We are courageous, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.” 2 Corinthians 5:8

    This is speaking of those anointed for heavenly life. These will die in the flesh and be raised as spirit beings in order to exist in heaven like their Leader Jesus Christ.

    Jesus sacrificed his human life and after his resurrection, he spent time encouraging his disciples before he returned to heaven.....he did not return in a human body but in a spiritual one. Flesh and blood cannot exist in the presence of God. To die in the flesh and be resurrected as a spirit is necessary only for those chosen for heavenly life. Not all are chosen. (Matthew 22:14)

    These misinterpretations play right into Satan’s first lie.....”you surely will not die”.....since humans clearly did die, Satan has misled people into believing that death is not what God said it was.....a cessation of life. These are opposites. Death is the opposite of life...not life in another form.

    To Adam God said....


    “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

    There was no mention of an afterlife of any kind....just death and a return to the dust of the earth. IOW Adam was sent back to where he came from. So where was Adam before God created him? Where were we before our parents created us? We simply did not exist. That is what the Bible teaches.....the only way to restore life is by resurrection......Jesus has that job. (John 5:28-29) Jesus calls ALL the dead from their graves. Imagine the reunions!
     
    #5 Deeje, Apr 2, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
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  6. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    Deeje.Why didn't you explain the part about jesus?:(
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    What part about Jesus?
     
  8. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    If you look through the website (Is soul sleep biblical?) top to bottom there is a part called "the bible uses descriptions based on appearance".That is what I am talking about.
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Frank, if you want specifics please quote them. I have already spent a considerable amount of time responding to this...
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I see that the copy and paste function is now disabled on that site......so....
    Taking what is said about Lazarus just from the Bible.....(any modern day translation....though not one that is overly paraphrased and not an archaic English version that is not relevant to the way we speak in the 21st century.)

    Read John 11: from verse 5-44....(NWT)

    "Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazʹa·rus. 6 However, when he heard that Lazʹa·rus was sick, he actually remained in the place where he was for two more days."

    Jesus knew that his dear friend was very ill but he did not go to him immediately. He knew Lazarus would die but had something to show the mourners and his family something more wonderful than just a cure. He said in V4..."This sickness is not meant to end in death, but is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”

    "After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died. . . .When Jesus arrived, he found that Lazʹa·rus had already been in the tomb for four days."

    Four days in middle eastern heat would have seen decomposition of the body taking place as his sister said...."by now he must smell."

    "When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him; but Mary kept sitting at home. 21 Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.” 23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; 26 and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?
    27 She said to him: “Yes, Lord, I have believed that you are the Christ, the Son of God, the one coming into the world.””


    Martha lamented that if Jesus had been there sooner, her brother would not have died.....but Jesus was about to do something amazing. When he said to Martha, "your brother will rise", she acknowledged what the Jews believed about the resurrection..."I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” This was "the last day" of God's eternal purpose when his kingdom rules mankind. But what Jesus says next has been twisted by those who want satan's lie to be true. By saying "I am the resurrection and the life" he was saying that he had been given the power to resurrect the dead....'even though a person died, they will come to life'. And he says that those who are "living" when the kingdom comes, will never die at all because they will survive the end of this wicked system just as Noah survived the flood. (Matthew 24:37-39) A chosen few would be taken to heaven, but the majority of those resurrected will live on earth.

    "Jesus had not yet come into the village, but he was still in the place where Martha had met him. 31 When the Jews who were with Mary in the house consoling her saw her get up quickly and go out, they followed her, supposing that she was going to the tomb to weep there. 32 When Mary arrived where Jesus was and caught sight of him, she fell at his feet and said to him: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” 33 When Jesus saw her weeping and the Jews who had come with her weeping, he groaned within himself and became troubled. 34 He said: “Where have you laid him?” They said to him: “Lord, come and see.” 35 Jesus gave way to tears. 36 At that the Jews began to say: “See, what affection he had for him!” 37 But some of them said: “Could not this man who opened the eyes of the blind man prevent this one from dying?

    Resurrecting a man dead for four days was much more amazing than just curing a sickness. He would have to repair the body before bringing him back to life. But Jesus was moved by the grief expressed at the loss of his friend and gave way to tears himself.

    38 Then Jesus, after groaning again within himself, came to the tomb. It was, in fact, a cave, and a stone was lying against it. 39 Jesus said: “Take the stone away.” Martha, the sister of the deceased, said to him: “Lord, by now he must smell, for it has been four days.” 40 Jesus said to her: “Did I not tell you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?41 So they took the stone away. Then Jesus raised his eyes heavenward and said: “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 True, I knew that you always hear me; but I spoke on account of the crowd standing around, so that they may believe that you sent me.” 43 When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice: “Lazʹa·rus, come out!” 44 The man who had been dead came out with his feet and hands bound with wrappings, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them: “Free him and let him go.

    Can you imagine the joy at seeing their brother and friend again, alive, safe and well?

    Let me ask you this now.....if Lazarus was in a better place, why would Jesus bring him back to this life, only to die again? Would that have done him any favor?

    Why could Lazarus benefit from his resurrection in ways that the people on that site have no comprehension of?

    Jesus actually changed the destiny of his friend. Since no one went to heaven before Jesus, (John 3:13) where did all those faithful ones in pre-Christian times go when they died? (Acts 2:34; John 11:11) They slept in death, awaiting the promised resurrection. Since Lazarus died before Jesus opened the way to heaven, Lazarus and his sisters would now all part of the chosen ones, who will rule with Christ in heaven.

    According to the apostle Paul, who said...."Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first."

    Those who are heaven bound still had to wait until Christ's return to gain their heavenly reward. These are resurrected "first". (Revelation 20:6) These began to be raised when the "last days" started. The sign that Jesus gave to indicate his Kingship had begun became clear in 1914, so we are well into the last moments of this time period. Jesus is about to take charge and bring in his Kingdom.....he said "Whoever is not on my side is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters." (Matthew 12:30)

    Please put this down now Frank. We have given you the scriptural reasons for our beliefs and need you to stick to the Bible and stop playing these sites off us. If you think we teach the truth then go and have a study and get baptized....otherwise find your truth somewhere else. How many times do we need to answer the same questions? Make a decision and stick to it....please.
     
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  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    It's interesting how people can read something so straightforward, and then try to spin it to fit their beliefs or ideas.
     
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  12. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for that Deeje.
     
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