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Question on God’s Holiness

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions DIR' started by Psalm23, Nov 29, 2021.

  1. Psalm23

    Psalm23 Active Member

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    I read that God is holy. I also read that angels are holy too. It seems to me that there is a difference between God’s holiness and the angels that God’s is greater but both God and the angels are without sin. Do you believe there is a difference in holiness and if so, in what way? How would you explain it ?
     
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  2. Lain

    Lain Well-Known Member

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    One of the main differences which applies to all created things vs. uncreated God is that God's holiness is intrinsic yet the holiness of creatures is extrinsic, it comes to them from God, yet God's holiness just is eternally.
     
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  3. Truthseeker

    Truthseeker Non-debating member when I can help myself

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    Angels are not without sin in my opinion, because angels are angelic people. That is, people with angelic qualities.

    I also agree with lain that the holiness of creatures are extrinsic, but God's is intrinsic.
     
    #3 Truthseeker, Nov 29, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2021
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  4. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    When we set aside people, places, things, times, etc, for God's purposes, they take on holiness.

    If you look at all the tines "holy" is used in teh Tanakh, you will see that many people, places, things, and times are holy. But only Hashem is "holy holy holy."
     
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  5. Psalm23

    Psalm23 Active Member

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    Sometimes people can be like angels when they help others who are in need or in pain in my opinion.
     
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  6. Sedim Haba

    Sedim Haba Senile Member

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    I will state my opinion on angels but please remember this is a DIR so while you are bound to
    disagree just state your own opinions without attacking mine. But questions are welcome.

    To answer most directly, angels are holy but they don't have any other choice. In other words,
    they don't have free will to do anything else but be holy. Most and it's probably 99.99% of them
    don't have anything even resembling a human personality, they are simple automatons.
    Like a computer program. Yes, they do get judged but that judgement would be about their
    effectiveness, not holiness. Sort of like how a car would be rated in an automotive magazine.

    So yes, the holiness of angels is very limited. Notice I very deliberately ignore any kind of angelic
    'rebellion' Because I don't believe in that. So if you want to bring that non-biblical tradition up,
    realize I will not comment on it as , like I said, DIR.
     
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  7. TurkeyOnRye

    TurkeyOnRye Well-Known Member

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    In my perception, angels have a lifeforce, just like any other being, and as such, they have free will. The reason they serve is the same reason we serve in the physical dimension; it deepens our connection to God.
     
  8. Bree

    Bree Active Member

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    does that mean you think that Satan is holy?
     
  9. Sedim Haba

    Sedim Haba Senile Member

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    The Hebrew word 'Kodesh' that is translated 'Holy' in English, means roughly
    'To be set apart for a specific purpose' and as every angel has one and only
    one purpose... yes, in the actual meaning of the word.
     
  10. Bree

    Bree Active Member

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    What if an Angel decides to rebel against God and stop doing the work of God? What if the angle decides to work against Gods purpose, is it still 'set apart for a specific purpose' ?

    Or are you saying you dont think angles have 'free will' ?
     
  11. Sedim Haba

    Sedim Haba Senile Member

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    Of course angels don't have free will. And any supposed 'rebellion' is NOT in Tanakh.
     
  12. Bree

    Bree Active Member

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    What about the book of Job? Seems to indicate that at least 1 angel was not living as he should have been. God questioned him on where he has been?
    Job 1:7Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Where have you come from?” Satan answered Jehovah: “From roving about on the earth and from walking about in it.”+ 8 And Jehovah said to Satan: “Have you taken note of* my servant Job?

    Also the account in Genesis that says how the 'sons of God' came down from heaven and took wives for themselves....their offspring being the Nephilim.
    Gen 6:2 the sons of the true God*+ began to notice that the daughters of men were beautiful. So they began taking as wives all whom they chose

    Do those accounts not indicate free will to you?
     
  13. Sedim Haba

    Sedim Haba Senile Member

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    Actually, I always point to Job as the most accurate representation of HaSatan.
    HaSatan = The Adversary. G-d's adversary? Obviously not, see the cordial and even pleasant conversation?
    He's just doing his job, the one G-d gave him. Think of a supervisor strolling the factory checking up on his workers....

    Only, there's a lot more at play here, that very few understand. But that's not for this topic.

    They are not angels, at all. Let me quote you standard Jewish understanding.

    One thing benei elokim does not mean is “sons of G‑d.” In fact, Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai would “curse” anyone who translated the term benei elokim as the “sons of G‑d.” The word elokim in Scripture, while generally referring to G‑d, is in essence merely an expression of authority. Similarly, the term benei does not necessarily mean “sons,” but is often just a title. Benei chorin, for example, means those who are free—not “sons of freedom.”

    The Hebrew word Nephilim is translated as 'fallen ones' (from the Hebrew naphal, “to fall”)

    But, fallen .... what? Our sages say giants. But they're not referring to huge humans.
    They're referring to social giants. Leaders. 'Men of Renown' as it says later in 6:4
    So, what are these 'giants' they are fallen from? Have you ever looked at the 'begats'
    and wondered at those huge lifespans? That wasn't typical of people at that time.
    No, those lifespans were because they were direct pureblood descendants of Adam.
    But, you will say... aren't we all descended from Adam? Not everyone was. There were
    other 'people' around. Genetics show Neanderthal genes in our genome, for one.

    So, Nephilim are direct pureblood descendants of Adam who went... 'slumming'.

    No.
     
  14. Bree

    Bree Active Member

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    wow im surprised to see those jewish teaches views.
    Other humans llving besides Adam and Eve??? Really? Why would God not mention them in the scriptures? Why would he say that he created the first human pair and set them in Eden?

    Those jewish teachers are making God look as though he's lying... along with Moses who wrote Genesis. It seems so disrepectful.
     
  15. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Salam

    Angels are two types, Saintly Jinn who follow God's chosen from humans and Saintly Jinn drawn close to God and chosen as his forces who also follow God's chosen from humans.

    Devils from Jinn are two types, Evil Jinn that are condemned beyond the point of return and are lost and won't come back and devils who can be still reformed and believe.

    Then is those who affair is with God and have not chosen their path and are in battle between faith and disbelief (some Jinn are neither Devils or Angels) and are struggling between the two calls.

    Chosen Angels are protected by God from deviating from his path like chosen humans are, but normal Angels are not fully protected and can deviate (if they couldn't deviate, they would have been among chosen).

    Devils believe they are good but have deceived themselves and lied to themselves. Angels can waver.

    Chosen Angels are chosen like human Messengers are chosen by God. They won't deviate.

    This is my perspective and I believe I have many proofs for it in Quran and Hadiths. God's Angels are those drawn close from them, the chosen ones. These the ones we have to believe in have a special role in design of God's universe.
     
    #15 Link, Jan 16, 2022 at 8:12 AM
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022 at 8:38 AM
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  16. Sedim Haba

    Sedim Haba Senile Member

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    The part from the 'jewish teachers' as you put it, was JUST the italicized section.
    The theory about other humans is strictly my OWN. You are in error in your accusation.

    Yes, Adam & Eve were in Eden. Then kicked out. We're talking about the World here.

    It's either there's other people around OR Cain married his SISTER????
    OR is incest a preferable theory to you than what's genetically proven?

    The Torah does not mention other people NOR does it mention any daughters of Eve.
    Also, it's plain to see other people are around. Genesis 4:14 we see Cain complain
    that anyone will kill him. WHO? He just murdered his brother! There are no sons
    of Able in Torah, though the sons of Cain & later Seth are listed. That means Able
    had no children. So, WHO is Cain afraid of? His parents are all there are, if as far
    as the Torah is concerned is all you consider.

    Use some reasoning here. Instead of theatrics. Or I will stop talking to you, Bree.

    And don't think I don't notice you won't capitalize Jewish when you seem to find
    your shift key just fine otherwise.
     
    #16 Sedim Haba, Jan 17, 2022 at 1:30 AM
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2022 at 3:11 AM
  17. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Well-Known Member
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    I think you'll find that this is incorrect.

    Angels are not jinn. Angels have wings, and jinn do not.
     
  18. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Do you know the story of Fitrus? He was an Angel who lost his wings for laziness in fulfilling orders from God.

    He got his wings restored when Imam Hussain (a) was born for his love of wanting to congratulate Rasool (s) for Imam Hussain (a).
     
    #18 Link, Jan 17, 2022 at 6:17 AM
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2022 at 6:30 AM
  19. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    There are many sources for the story of Fitrus among them:

    Abu’l-Qasim ibn `Al’ al-Hamadaniy, the representative of Imam al-Hasan al-`Askariy (a.s), received a document telling that our master, Grandson of the Holy Prophet (saws),Imam al-Husayn ibn `Ali (a.s), was born on the third of Sha`ban; therefore, you should observe fasting on this day and recite the following supplication:

    O Allah: I beseech You in the name of the one born on this day, the one promised with martyrdom before the beginning of his life and before his birth, the heavens and all their inhabitants wept for him; and so did the earth and those living one it; before his feet stepped on it;the mourned slain one; and the master of the Family (of Prophet hood);

    and the one who shall be backed with victory on the Day of Return; the one whom has been awarded with the favor of the Imams’ being from his offspring as recompense of his being slain; and the one awarded with the favor of the soil of his grave carrying cure;and the one awarded with the favor that he will be triumphing when he will be returned;

    and also the Prophet’s Successors from his offspring will be returned after the advent of their Rising Imam and after his occultation, so that they shall take revenge, and they shall retaliate, and they shall please the Omnipotent Lord,and they shall be the best supporters.

    May Allah’s blessings be perpetually upon them whenever night and day succeed each other.

    O Allah: I thus beg You in the name of them; and I implore You with the imploration of a sinful one who confesses of his guilt, and who has done evil to himself, due to his violations—the past and the present.

    He thus beseeches You for protection from You up to the place of his grave.

    O Allah: (please) send blessings upon Muhammad and his Offspring, and include us with his group (on the Resurrection Day)and allow us to dwell in the House of Honor with him, and in the abode of residence.

    O Allah: as You have conferred upon us with the honor of our recognition of him, (please) confer upon us with the honor of being near to him, and bestow upon us with the bliss of accompanying him and enjoying a close rank to him, and include us with those who submit to him totally, and those who pray (You) for sending blessings upon him whenever they mention him, and also upon all his Successors and Selected Ones, whom are defined by You as twelve persons, being the luminous stars, and the Arguments against all humankind.

    O Allah: and (please) grant us on this day the best of grants, and make all our prayers on this day responded, in the same way as You gifted al-Husayn to Muhammad: his grandfather, and in the same way as the angels Futrus sought refuge with his (i.e. al-Husayn) cradle we are thus seeking refuge with his tomb after him (i.e. his martyrdom)as we are witnessing the soil of him and expecting his return.

    Amen, O the Lord of the worlds.
     
  20. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Imam Sadiq (a.s.) said: When Imam Husain (a.s.) was born, Allah ordered Jibraeel to descend to the earth with a thousand angels to congratulate Allahs Messenger (s.a.w.s.) on behalf of Allah and himself. On his way, Jibraeel descended on an island where an angel, Futrus lived. Futrus was a carrier of the Throne. Once he had delayed carrying out an order of Allah so his wings were broken and he was thrown on this island. He continued worshipping Allah on that island for six hundred years, after which Imam Husain (a.s.) was born. Futrus asked Jibraeel, “Where are you going?” “Allah has blessed His Eminence, Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) with a blessing and I have been sent to congratulate him on behalf of Allah and myself.” “Please Jibraeel! Take me with you. Perhaps the Prophet will intercede for me.” So Jibraeel carried Futrus and when they arrived, Jibraeel congratulated the Prophet on behalf of Allah and himself, and then informed him about Futrus. Allahs Messenger (s.a.w.s.) told Jibraeel to bring Futrus inside. After Futrus was brought inside, he informed the Prophet of his situation, who prayed for him and said, “Rub your wings on this newborn child and you will revert to your original position.” Futrus rubbed his wings on Imam Husain (a.s.) and began ascending the heavens. As he was ascending, he said, “O Allahs Messenger (s.a.w.s.)! Indeed your Ummah will soon kill him. Indeed, as my recompense to him, I will convey to him the Ziyarat and salutations of all those who perform his Ziyarat or salute him.” Then Futrus ascended to the heavens.
     
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