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Question on Caste System vs Varna System?

I understand the difference between the caste system and varna system.

I believe that Caste system that is present in the current indian society is based on BIRTH and is man-made.

Many non-Hindus have this misconception that There is a caste system in Hinduism. There is no caste system in Hinduism but a Varna System. Caste system as non hindus and westerners think is based on Birth...someone born in a Brahmin house will be Brahmin or someone born in a shudra will be a shudra.. This is absolutely wrong and Sanatana Dharma has never prescribed this type of Caste System.

Varna system is based on one's thinking, characteristic and actions. Someone who does pious deeds for the welfare of the other is surely be considered good. And someone does something bad to others just to get personal gains is surely be considered evil or Tamas guni. Hindusim differenciates people not by his birth but by his thinking, actions and personality.

Basically, all those people in India who are called Dalit, Harijan etc are not Shudras since one can not differenciated based on their birth according to Hinduism. It is just people made up their own castes post Mahabharat period due to lack of knowledge in Vedas.

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Sri Krishna in Bhagavad Gita clarifies (Chapter 4 verse 13) states "catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah tasya kartaram api mam viddhy akartaram avyayam" meaning that the fours varnas were established based on ones karma/duties.

An individual should be classified in a particular class (varna) irrespective of his birth if he possesses the decisive characteristic of that class. One's class should be decided considering the holistic picture of the qualities of the class of the person and those of the other classes. - Shrimadbhagvat 7.21.35

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MY QUESTION: (answer if you agree with above)

IN THIS KALI-YUG (MODERN AGE), how do one get to be in a VARNA according to Sanatana Dharma? How do you decide your own or other's Varna? If you cannot decide your own Varna then who does? Is there a procedure for this in Sanatana Dharma for Kali-Yug since it is not based on birth?

The answer to this question is not quite clear to me.
 

Satsangi

Active Member
Anti religion has mentioned a Sapta Rishi way of finding one's Varna. Most of the times it is obvious by the person's nature wheteher they are predominantly sattvic, rajasic or tamasic.

Regards,
 

Metempsychosis

Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
A person is under the influence of various gunas(Sattva,Rahas,Tamas).Based on the predominance of these gunas the varna of the person changes from time to time.The gunas themselves cannot be predetermined,unless ofcourse by astrological/Occult methods(for determining past which may not be accurate sometimes).By freewill gunas cannot be changed to an extent.

All these works irrespective of what ones religion is.

Is Varna system effective may be next question?

First,It foolish to think all people would believe in Hindu religion.The efficiency of varna system depends on the real varna of the people enforcing such a social system.Hence,any religious socio-political is bound to be "ineffective" because of of human frailties.So caste system is a obvious result.

Again,It is the varna that differentiates between person like Gandhi and a evil guy like Hitler.

The VAJRASUCHIKA UPANISHAD answer the following question.
(The Upanishads have been uploaded here:)
“Who indeed then bears the designation Brahmin?

One who has directly realized, like the berry in the palm, the Atman without a second, devoid of class, quality and action and of defects like the six waves (like hunger), the states (like birth and death), of the nature of truth, knowledge and bliss, free from adjuncts, the basis of all thoughts, immanent in all creatures, present inside and outside like space. Bliss impartite, beyond (ordinary) knowledge, to be realized by experience alone - and having become successful, free from lust etc., rich in mental control, without greed etc., mind untouched by hypocrisy etc. This is the intention of Veda etc. Otherwise the nature of Brahmana cannot be achieved. One should contemplate one's self as the spirit without a second, truth, knowledge and bliss.

There is no other way of attaining Brahminhood.
Such is this Upanishad (secret/exalted) doctrine!”
So,the aim is to attain Brahminhood rather then finding out ones varna.
 
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Anti religion has mentioned a Sapta Rishi way of finding one's Varna. Most of the times it is obvious by the person's nature wheteher they are predominantly sattvic, rajasic or tamasic.

Regards,

Who has the right to decide especially in Kali-Yuga. In previous yuga, we had great maharishis, who at glance could decide your Varna but what about in this age??
 
A person is under the influence of various gunas(Sattva,Rahas,Tamas).Based on the predominance of these gunas the varna of the person changes from time to time.The gunas themselves cannot be predetermined,unless ofcourse by astrological/Occult methods(for determining past which may not be accurate sometimes).By freewill gunas cannot be changed to an extent.

All these works irrespective of what ones religion is.

Is Varna system effective may be next question?

First,It foolish to think all people would believe in Hindu religion.The efficiency of varna system depends on the real varna of the people enforcing such a social system.Hence,any religious socio-political is bound to be "ineffective" because of of human frailties.So caste system is a obvious result.

Again,It is the varna that differentiates between person like Gandhi and a evil guy like Hitler.

The VAJRASUCHIKA UPANISHAD answer the following question.
(The Upanishads have been uploaded here:)

So,the aim is to attain Brahminhood rather then finding out ones varna.

My question was asked with respect to SANATANA VEDIC DHARMA, which divides majority of human race in 4 varnas. My question is how to decide one's varna?

Let's say someone asks you, what VARNA do you belong to? What would you answer?

you did not quite answer my question.
 

Metempsychosis

Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
My question was asked with respect to SANATANA VEDIC DHARMA, which divides majority of human race in 4 varnas. My question is how to decide one's varna?

Let's say someone asks you, what VARNA do you belong to? What would you answer?

you did not quite answer my question.

I personally do not believe in Categorizing society into different Varna .It is futile,because varnas are impossible to determine by Humans and is ever changing.You can see my posts on this here.
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
MY QUESTION: (answer if you agree with above)

IN THIS KALI-YUG (MODERN AGE), how do one get to be in a VARNA according to Sanatana Dharma? How do you decide your own or other's Varna? If you cannot decide your own Varna then who does? Is there a procedure for this in Sanatana Dharma for Kali-Yug since it is not based on birth?

The answer to this question is not quite clear to me.
Hi
I cannot answer the question as proposed from an academic or scriptual perspective, simply because I have not the resources. However there is a point I wish to make which might, I hope, help to see the question differently. I have no doubt AR's posts will be beneficial :)

This question arises as a duality, a right and wrong. Decisions are dualistic, your quesiton being how to decide our Varna in context with the Kali age.

Firstly with any decision you will always be confronted with the opposite, even if the opposite appears less likely. So I can say, you personally choose your Varna based on your gut feeling. Am I wrong, perhaps, but I am just as likely to be accepted as right. My point is we should see beyond the duality of the problem, it is a guidance for the dualistic society and not for the spirtural seeker. Accept your place or become spirtual and go beyond, that is the decision we are then prompted with. Going beyond breaks that bonds as we become closer to the divine, thus we break or step out of the need for Varna, caste and any answer, we become one with the divine, as the SGGS and the Vedas say.

Also the age of Kali has changed many things, even society is no longer determined by caste or class. Here in EU we encounter people from uneducated poor backgrounds making millions or entering powerful positions. This one could say is part of the age of Kali, the confusion of caste and society has fallen victim to the age of Kali and needs to be overcome as does mAyA.

Just some thoughts :)
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
LOL.:).This is what happened in the medieval ages.Some People "thought" they were Brahmins.But they were not.
:) This is exactly it, a form of caste existed in Russia up to the 1900 that people were actually the property of the land owner! Surfdom. The whole thing is based on dualism which comes down to "mine verus theirs" in a world where we believe objects are the key to happiness. With respect, the OP will not be satisfied by any specific answer, because it is a dualistic proposition and hence subjected to change, in this age and the next. Fine, be a Brahmin, try to ensure your family has a good future, but by doing so you will miss non-dual Brahman, the One in which all are different yet the same. Spirutual truth needs no object, no possession and no caste.
 
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Metempsychosis

Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
:) This is exactly it, a form of caste existed in Russia up to the 1900 that people were actually the property of the land owner! Surfdom.The whole thing is based on dualism which comes down to "mine verus theirs" in a world where we believe objects are the key to happiness.
Yes...Its inherent nature of people to build social system like caste,surfdom etc..

With respect, the OP will not be satisfied by any specific answer, because it is a dualistic proposition and hence subjected to change, in this age and the next. Fine, be a Brahmin, try to ensure your family has a good future, but by doing so you will miss non-dual Brahman, the One in which all are different yet the same. Spiritual truth needs no object, no possession and no caste.
You seem to be a mayavadi(like me :D).
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
Yes...Its inherent nature of people to build social system like caste,surfdom etc..


You seem to be a mayavadi(like me :D).
haha, mayavadis united :) But like you also, aham brahmasi. Which is why I feel the OP is difficult to answer because it is assuming that we can be categorised. Due to the impurity of the age of Kali this also is more difficult, one might say.
 

Metempsychosis

Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
haha, mayavadis united :) But like you also, aham brahmasi. Which is why I feel the OP is difficult to answer because it is assuming that we can be categorised. Due to the impurity of the age of Kali this also is more difficult, one might say.
The OP is impossible to be answered by humans .:eek: Bring on Narayana!!!
 
I personally do not believe in Categorizing society into different Varna .It is futile,because varnas are impossible to determine by Humans and is ever changing.You can see my posts on this here.

Thanks for the link. It is good that you raised the same issue. Well, first of all we have to agree that the present caste system in Hindu society is just lame and was never prescribed by Sanatana Dharma. Once, we understand this, then the dalits or harijans are no more Shudra and Brahmins are no more Brahmins by birth only.

By your view, it is impossible to decide one's Varna.

it is not categorizing the society but it is an inherent characteristic of every individual. For example, everyone who is in Army to serve the country should be a true Kshatriya. One would not be there, if he did not have the Kshatriya Guna. Similarly, someone in trade would be a vaishya.

SANATANA DHARMA has talked about few ways of deciding a VARNA.

One of them is by KARMA but one "SHOULD" engage in those Karmas that correlate with his/her GUNAS.

Second of them is by GUNAS which is most appropriate but who will decide who is GUNI or not.

Thus the idea is that one need to understand what their traits are, that determines their svadharma, same as svakarma. That is the secret to success and liberation.
 

Satsangi

Active Member
The "psyche" or "svabhava" make up of an individual is grossly either sattvic, rajasic or tamasic to begin with as exhibited by his personality. The gunas may be modified by environment and a rajasic person may behave as sattvic in a sattvic environment for a while, but not forever. That basic psyche or basic svabhava make-up can be used to find one's Varna, in my opinion.

Regards,
 
Hi
I cannot answer the question as proposed from an academic or scriptual perspective, simply because I have not the resources. However there is a point I wish to make which might, I hope, help to see the question differently. I have no doubt AR's posts will be beneficial :)

This question arises as a duality, a right and wrong. Decisions are dualistic, your quesiton being how to decide our Varna in context with the Kali age.

Firstly with any decision you will always be confronted with the opposite, even if the opposite appears less likely. So I can say, you personally choose your Varna based on your gut feeling. Am I wrong, perhaps, but I am just as likely to be accepted as right. My point is we should see beyond the duality of the problem, it is a guidance for the dualistic society and not for the spirtural seeker. Accept your place or become spirtual and go beyond, that is the decision we are then prompted with. Going beyond breaks that bonds as we become closer to the divine, thus we break or step out of the need for Varna, caste and any answer, we become one with the divine, as the SGGS and the Vedas say.

Also the age of Kali has changed many things, even society is no longer determined by caste or class. Here in EU we encounter people from uneducated poor backgrounds making millions or entering powerful positions. This one could say is part of the age of Kali, the confusion of caste and society has fallen victim to the age of Kali and needs to be overcome as does mAyA.

Just some thoughts :)

I understand that in the spiritual sense, one needs nothing not even scriptures but just concentrate on GOD.

But my question is just based on hinduism.
 
The "psyche" or "svabhava" make up of an individual is grossly either sattvic, rajasic or tamasic to begin with as exhibited by his personality. The gunas may be modified by environment and a rajasic person may behave as sattvic in a sattvic environment for a while, but not forever. That basic psyche or basic svabhava make-up can be used to find one's Varna, in my opinion.

Regards,

I would agree with above. The inherent true characteristics are always stays the same. You might not be acting properly or according to those characteristics. For example, Sage Valmiki in actual had a pure soul inside him but he had not realized that till late. What I am trying to say that he was a true brahmin from starting but his actions were a result of temporary environment he was in and shaped his behaviour. But Brahma knew that he had a pure soul in him and with the help of Narad he meditated and became a Rishi. The same is true with LORD Buddha


You might hurt someone without any reason but at the same time feel guilty and regret at your actions. This person surely is more Saatvic than someone who has no regret at his doings.
 

Satsangi

Active Member
The "Svabhava" as mentioned above usually remain as they are embedded with the Jeeva; only one Sadhana removes them and that is Satsang with a BhramNishtha Guru and total surrender to God and Guru.

Regards,
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
What would satisify you? Would you require something from the scriptures putting Varna in context with the age of Kali?

What answer are you hoping to clarify exactly? Your own personal Varna or how Hindu philosophy approaches this answer?
 
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