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Question for Vaishnavas

Chakra

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hey guys,

So we all know how much of a danger bhagavata-aparadha is. However, are we not allowed to criticize Vaishnavas at all? Suppose a Vaishnava is eating meat, or is saying offensive things, we are allowed to criticize them right? If yes, how do we know when we are committing aparadha and when we are not?

Thanks.
 

StarryNightshade

Spiritually confused Jew
Premium Member
Hey guys,
However, are we not allowed to criticize Vaishnavas at all? Suppose a Vaishnava is eating meat, or is saying offensive things, we are allowed to criticize them right?

That depends.

Are the criticisms constructive? In that one truly thinks that what they say will truly help the other devotee?

Or is it a means to feel superior?
 

Chakra

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Let's put it another way. If there is a senior devotee doing something wrong and you know he is doing something wrong, what should you do? Are you allowed to criticize him for his well-being?
 

StarryNightshade

Spiritually confused Jew
Premium Member
Let's put it another way. If there is a senior devotee doing something wrong and you know he is doing something wrong, what should you do? Are you allowed to criticize him for his well-being?

I don't think I can honestly answer that. I'm no wear near perfect in my practice (even though I do my sadhana as best as I can), so where can I possibly come from in criticizing someone else? Maybe I can ask them why they ate meat, especially if their particular school calls for vegetarianism, but that's really all I can think of.
 

Stormcry

Well-Known Member
Hey guys,

So we all know how much of a danger bhagavata-aparadha is. However, are we not allowed to criticize Vaishnavas at all? Suppose a Vaishnava is eating meat, or is saying offensive things, we are allowed to criticize them right? If yes, how do we know when we are committing aparadha and when we are not?

Thanks.
Vaishnawa do not eat Meat or criticize anyone.
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
namaskaram Axlyz ji

when a Vaisnava is doing wrong , when he is behaving badly when he criticises another , do not join in , walk away , pray for him and walk away , ....next time you see him treat him the same way you would treat another , see Krsna in the heart , ....if he has not changed , pray for him and walk away , .....if it is a position from which you canot walk away then turn away your mind and your ears , ...

if you feel that his behavior is harmfull to others , then you must speak sweetly to him . finding the most gentle way to ask him why he behaves so ?
if he is defensive then ask him politely to consider his actions .

if it is just a problem of his eating meat , ...behaving stubornly and remaininng attatched to mundane activities then rather than argue with him or acccuse him we must find a gentle way to remind him that vegetarianism is so beloved of Krsna , ...and if worst comes to worst , ...I will joke with him and tell him , ...what is the matter with you prabhu ji you want to be born as a dog in your next life ???

there is no harm to gently instruct another person , ....infact it is our duty , but it should be done gently and sweetly , and in accordance with shastra , ....
if that totaly fails then one tells direct truth ! ......but must be done without any attatchment to an outcome , ...criticism comes from the mind which is attatched and holds some personal opinion , a true Vaisnava sees all as the lord that resides within , it is our Dharma to remain ''equal in happiness and distress'' , ....and where possible help others to attain equanimity awareness and devotion . ..but we must be prepaired to accept that each is at their own level , sometimes we have to leave it to the Lords mercy .


for a younger person it is hard to speak like this to a senior but if we are unsure what to do we should think of Prahlada Maharaj who still remained respectfull to his father , but he spoke the truth and would not deviate in his behavior he simply prayed for the protection of the lord .
 

shivsomashekhar

Well-Known Member
Vaishnawa do not eat Meat or criticize anyone.

Not true. Millions of Vaishnavas eat meat.

Vaishnava simply means - worshiper of Vishnu. Beyond that, there are no rules attached with the classification. However, within Vaishnavism, individual sects (there are several) have their own rules. For example, there are many people who live around the Tirupathi region, who consider themselves Vaishnava. But in accordance with their local traditions, they eat meat.

Same with Shaivas. Some eat meat, some do not. Dietary restrictions, if any, are only at the level of individual sects and not at the broad Shaiva/Vaishnava/Shakta level.
 

Chakra

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Thanks everyone. Just as a clarification, I don't have a problem with any Vaishnava and am not using this thread to find out a way to criticize someone. These were genuine question.
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
namaskaram shivsomashekhar ji

Not true. Millions of Vaishnavas eat meat.

Vaishnava simply means - worshiper of Vishnu. Beyond that, there are no rules attached with the classification. However, within Vaishnavism, individual sects (there are several) have their own rules. For example, there are many people who live around the Tirupathi region, who consider themselves Vaishnava. But in accordance with their local traditions, they eat meat.

Same with Shaivas. Some eat meat, some do not. Dietary restrictions, if any, are only at the level of individual sects and not at the broad Shaiva/Vaishnava/Shakta level.

please do not take offence , this is a genuine question , .....out of those who eat meat is there any one tradition that whos Acharyas ate meat or who offfer meat in their temples ?

I was under the distinct impression that all bhoga offerings at Tirupati were pure vegetarian , ...

and what of the verse in the Gita

in charge of the various necessities of life, the demigods, being satisfied by the performance of yajna [sacrifice], supply all necessities to man. But he who enjoys these gifts, without offering them to the demigods in return, is certainly a thief. ....
The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin.

Bhagavad Gita Ch 3 ...V 12-13

Do all Vaisnava's not follow the instructions given in the Gita ?
surely if a food is not offerable , we should not eat it , if we do we eat only for our own gratification ?
the only reason I can see for the eating of the flesh of another sentient being would be in the cases of extreme shortage (total unavailability) of fruits , grains , and vegetables , ...

surely these Tamasic foods are to be rejected ?
do all Vaisnava,s not follow these yogic principles ?
 
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shivsomashekhar

Well-Known Member
Greetings,

namaskaram shivsomashekhar ji
as
please do not take offence , this is a genuine question , .....out of those who eat meat is there any one tradition that whos Acharyas ate meat or who offfer meat in their temples ?

No. While meat is part of their diet, they abstain on holy days, festivals and it is not offered to any form of Vishnu at home or in temples.

Do all Vaisnava's not follow the instructions given in the Gita ?

They do not. The Gita is not the equivalent of the Bible to Vaishnavas, as it is commonly mistaken to be. The rules and regulations for Brahmins (Vaishnava and non-Vaishnava) come from their chosen Grihya sutrasand Dharma shastras (Apastamba, etc). For non-Brahmins, it is just a matter of tradition or what their ancestors followed.

surely if a food is not offerable , we should not eat it , if we do we eat only for our own gratification ?

No such concept exists among most Hindus, including traditional, orthodox Brahmins. In all cases, food to be offered for worship certainly comes with more restrictions than regular food, but the two can be quite different.

the only reason I can see for the eating of the flesh of another sentient being would be in the cases of extreme shortage (total unavailability) of fruits , grains , and vegetables , ...

That is a personal opinion and really has nothing to do with religion. Most people in India who are vegetarians are simply so because they were born into vegetarian families. We will have a few exceptions, of course, but the statement is true for almost every Hindu in India. For Brahmins, of course, there is also the additional guidance in the form of scripture.
 
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ratikala

Istha gosthi
namaskaram shivsomashekhar ji

Greetings,

No. While meat is part of their diet, they abstain on holy days, festivals and it is not offered to any form of Vishnu at home or in temples.

So they offer satvic food to the deities , but eat a tamasic diet themselves Why do they do this ?


They do not. The Gita is not the equivalent of the Bible to Vaishnavas, as it is commonly mistaken to be. The rules and regulations for Brahmins (Vaishnava and non-Vaishnava) come from their chosen Grihya sutrasand Dharma shastras (Apastamba, etc). For non-Brahmins, it is just a matter of tradition or what their ancestors followed.

it is not just writen in the Gita this comes from the Ayurveda .
surely if a food is not offerable , we should not eat it , if we do we eat only for our own gratification ?

No such concept exists among most Hindus, including traditional, orthodox Brahmins. In all cases, food to be offered for worship certainly comes with more restrictions than regular food, but the two can be quite different.

then you are saying that only a minority of Hindus follow the recomendations given in the Gita , ...and only a small minority follow Yogic pronciples ?

That is a personal opinion and really has nothing to do with religion. Most people in India who are vegetarians are simply so because they were born into vegetarian families. We will have a few exceptions, of course, but the statement is true for almost every Hindu in India. For Brahmins, of course, there is also the additional guidance in the form of scripture.

no , no , ....not at all , it is not my personal opinion , ...it is very much a part of religion it is Sanatana Dharma , ....it is my Gurus instruction no initiation is given to non vegetarians and no Deity seva , so how could I eat impure foods then come infront of the Deities to perform seva ? ....it is certainly benificial to be born into a Vegetarian fammily but many people choose to become vegetarian of their own free will , I choose long before I came to taking initiation .yes of course there is spscific instructions for Brahmin preists , they must be pure in mind and heart therfore they must follow Satvic diet .

so here we are drawing a line between the committed devotees the aspiring Brahmins , aspiring Preists , aspiring devotees , ...and the lay comunity the cultural Hindus

if you say the majority of Hindus do not follow Shastra this is cultual Hinduism , abstaining from meat only on jayanti's and festival days , ...

so here is the difference those who follow Samskara's and celibrate Holy days we are calling them Vaisnava because this is the tradition which they are born into , ...they worship to recive the Blessings of Visnu , ....then you have comitted Vaisnava , surrendered and devoted , ....who worships out of love , they surrender their lives to Visnu .

her we see that we have cultural Vaisnava'a and Practicing Vaisnava's this is natural , ...

we have this problem here in the UK many Indian families are very strictly observing the principles but the younger generations are not following , they want to be western and eat burgers and drink alcahol so they abstain on days which they will visit the temple because culturaly they still feel Vaisnava , ....but this meet eating is because of the western influence .
where you say that there are areas of Vaisnava who are culturaly meat eaters at home but who will observe a satvic diet when visiting the temple , where did this influence come from , from whom did they aquire this meat eating habit ?
how far in their ancestry does this meat eating go back?
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
I would consider it bad to talk about such a person behind their back Ie/ gossip, criticise. But to have a conversation with that person about their lifestyle choices would not, in my opinion, be considered criticism. Having said that, if it's an adult making a personal choice, it may not be our business to tell them what they should be doing. Chances are they already know and are making a personal choice.
 

Stormcry

Well-Known Member
According to Ayurveda, Meat is Tamasik Food and causes imbalance of Vata, Pitta & Kapha, leading to various diseases. Also it increases Tamasik influence over mind.
 

shivsomashekhar

Well-Known Member
Greetings,

namaskaram shivsomashekhar ji

So they offer satvic food to the deities , but eat a tamasic diet themselves Why do they do this ?

This is the disconnect I have talked about several times...about the perception of Hinduism among Hindus who do not live in India. Most Hindus in India would not know what Sattvic and Tamasic foods are - nor would they care to know. These concepts have nothing to do with how they practice religion. But then, I guess this would be hard to understand for non-Indian Hindus who approach the religion through books/scriptures and/or Gurus.

then you are saying that only a minority of Hindus follow the recomendations given in the Gita , ...and only a small minority follow Yogic pronciples ?

That is correct.

where you say that there are areas of Vaisnava who are culturaly meat eaters at home but who will observe a satvic diet when visiting the temple , where did this influence come from , from whom did they aquire this meat eating habit ?
how far in their ancestry does this meat eating go back?

It is the other way around. Vegetarianism and Vaishnavism came in later.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Most Hindus in India would not know what Sattvic and Tamasic foods are - nor would they care to know. These concepts have nothing to do with how they practice religion.
I think quite many know, but humans are frail (me included). We try to follow the traditions in spite of that.
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
namaskaram shivsomashekhar ji

Greetings,'

This is the disconnect I have talked about several times...about the perception of Hinduism among Hindus who do not live in India. Most Hindus in India would not know what Sattvic and Tamasic foods are - nor would they care to know. These concepts have nothing to do with how they practice religion. But then, I guess this would be hard to understand for non-Indian Hindus who approach the religion through books/scriptures and/or Gurus.

prehaps this is not so much a dissconect as a normal state of affairs , ....

are you suggesting that in the west we all think that every Hindu in India is fully committed , fully surrendered , conversant with , and following every principle ? , ....of course not , .....here we are in just the same position Christianity is the cultural religion , many people will tell you that they are Christian even though they them selves are not actively practicing , and a majority of them dont even uphold the ten comandments , ...killing , lieing , Coveting and theft are indemic , but that does not mean that there are some good Christians that do follow to the best of their abilities , ...

and we all work within the confines of our chosen religions principles to the best of our understanding , and to the best of our ability , ....

so I do not so much think that westerners expect every Cultural Hindu to be a perfect adept , ....but this does not define Hinduism it self , just because many of its adherents do not follow the principle of vegetarianism that does not mean that Vegetarianism is not a Hindu principle


It is the other way around. Vegetarianism and Vaishnavism came in later.

on what do you base this assumption ? , ...please elaborate , .... many thanks .
 

shivsomashekhar

Well-Known Member
I think quite many know, but humans are frail (me included). We try to follow the traditions in spite of that.

Generally (with few exceptions), it is not a Hindu custom to offer every meal to Krishna or any other God. Food is offered to God only during festivals and auspicious days, and this fare (sweets, etc.,) is quite different from everyday fare (rice/dal, roti/sabji).The distinction in this case is not based on Sattvic/Tamasic at all. Meat and eggs have been considered inappropriate for most (but, not all) forms of worship.
 

shivsomashekhar

Well-Known Member
What did vegetarianism and Vaishnavism come after?

Vaishnavism is a combination of Vedic beliefs, Pancharatra (Narayana based) and Bhagavata (Krishna based). The later two either originated from Vedic beliefs or were indigenous systems that eventually merged to form modern day Vaishnavism. In the South, the Vaishnava belief spread originally through Azhwars and later by the influence of Sad-Vaishnavas (Madhva) and Sri Vaishnavas (Ramanuja). None of these events are particularly ancient.

The concept of "local Gods" is key to understanding the shape of Hinduism in India. Most Indians reside in villages and villages have their own Gods (since, time immemorial). Later, with external influence, many of these regional Gods were mapped to one of Shaiva/Vaishnava/Shakta Gods. Since then, they would have adopted a hybrid mixture of their traditional practices combined with newer practices (which came with association of their God with Shiva/Vishnu/Shakti). Some of these local Gods are still offered meat, while other Gods (including the more well known Gods) are offered only vegetarian food, though the worshipers may not be vegetarian. With no Gurus and no scriptures, these practices are pure family tradition.

There are always exceptions, but this covers a significant part of the non-Brahmin Hindu population. Again, this is hard for people to understand or relate to, unless they have spent time in India and have observed religion as practiced by locals.
 
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