Question for the Evangelical Community

[e.r.m.]

What if an individual who is applying to come into your community says (s)he believes but refuses to be baptized?

It would be no different than if they refused to confess Jesus as Lord.

 

[metis]

LOL, that hasn't happened in the last 26 years... but let's take the spirit of the question into a more practical application.

Someone comes in and isn't baptized yet and isn't sure about it. We just love on them and ask them why. Usually there is a thinking issue. In the meantime, they can serve people and be part of the community.

Even more practical. Two people came in and they are living together... what do we do. We just love on them and let them serve in a capacity that is not of a leadership position. Their hearts were right and a year later they are married and baptized.

I would say, like children, each has to be handled differently. It's the heart that is at issue and we want to heal the heart and not damage it. I'll be the first to say we don't always do it perfectly, but we aways have a love motivation.

I think that this is quite commendable.

But when I read the above "between the lines", I pick up something a bit different than what you previously have stated. For example, it's not really any different that what's done in my wife's Catholic church. No one is kicked out of her church because they're not baptized, plus the church obviously teaches love for all. And, like your church, they also cannot serve in a leadership position-- at least officially (local priests do have some discretionary powers, although I don't know if this would apply in this area).

So, the fact that the non-baptized cannot serve as leaders within your church actually undercuts your position in opposition to my position in regards that baptism was used historically and still is used as an introductory rite within the church communities. If this wasn't the case in your church, then why can't the non-baptized serve in leadership positions? If it's only water, or even if it's only for the forgiveness of sin, what difference does it make since we're all gonna sin again anyway?

This shows up, btw, in Acts and some of the epistles whereas there are procedures to be followed when baptizing, along with communal accountability for the baptized that could lead to excommunication if not followed. This process continued on and was elaborated on in the 2nd century church as well whereas some procedures became more formalized.

 

[metis]

It would be no different than if they refused to confess Jesus as Lord.

And that's pretty much my point. For one to say that they need not be baptized is like saying that they really don't believe in Jesus-- at least that's the way I believe most would take it.

 

[Kenny]

I think that this is quite commendable.

But when I read the above "between the lines", I pick up something a bit different than what you previously have stated. For example, it's not really any different that what's done in my wife's Catholic church. No one is kicked out of her church because they're not baptized, plus the church obviously teaches love for all. And, like your church, they also cannot serve in a leadership position-- at least officially (local priests do have some discretionary powers, although I don't know if this would apply in this area).

So, the fact that the non-baptized cannot serve as leaders within your church actually undercuts your position in opposition to my position in regards that baptism was used historically and still is used as an introductory rite within the church communities. If this wasn't the case in your church, then why can't the non-baptized serve in leadership positions? If it's only water, or even if it's only for the forgiveness of sin, what difference does it make since we're all gonna sin again anyway?

This shows up, btw, in Acts and some of the epistles whereas there are procedures to be followed when baptizing, along with communal accountability for the baptized that could lead to excommunication if not followed. This process continued on and was elaborated on in the 2nd century church as well whereas some procedures became more formalized.

I'm not sure I understand why it undercuts. Help me understand...

A leader is one who leads by example -- why would you have someone who is not leading by example in obedience to scripture on such a basic level lead?

Certainly I don't see it as grounds for excommunication.

 

[Kenny]

And that's pretty much my point. For one to say that they need not be baptized is like saying that they really don't believe in Jesus-- at least that's the way I believe most would take it.

Metis... I really have NEVER seen someone who said "I believe in Jesus" turn around and say "I will NOT be baptized". It has always been... "Help me understand... why? what? when? Am I worthy enough?

It has never been "NO I WON'T" but rather "No, I don't have enough understanding to make a quality decision".

IF this hypothetical person that has never crossed my path said "NO I WON'T, NOT NOW, NOR EVER" then certainly I wouldn't put that attitude in a position of leadership and would question if he really made Jesus Lord. But we accept people into our services no matter what type of person they are because the words of God are filled with live changing power.

 

[metis]

A leader is one who leads by example -- why would you have someone who is not leading by example in obedience to scripture on such a basic level lead?

But why is baptism an "example" to begin with whereas it's used as a litmus test for being in the community leadership if the communal aspect of baptism supposedly isn't necessarily even there?

Certainly I don't see it as grounds for excommunication.

Baptism sets up responsibilities that the baptized must agree with and try to follow when baptized and after being baptized. If they refuse to follow through on these responsibilities, they may be excommunicated or removed in some way ("does a rose by any other name..."?). For example, it is expected that a person acts morally as some sort of confession of beliefs, which normally goes along with baptism and/or "confirmation", and these expectations are largely established by the denomination and/or local church. The Amish undoubtedly have some different expectations that your church likely has.

 

[metis]

IF this hypothetical person that has never crossed my path said "NO I WON'T, NOT NOW, NOR EVER" then certainly I wouldn't put that attitude in a position of leadership and would question if he really made Jesus Lord.

You're helping to establish my point because baptism involves commitment, but this commitment is not only personal-- it's also communal.

Checkmate, old chap.

 

[Kenny]

You're helping to establish my point because baptism involves commitment, but this commitment is not only personal-- it's also communal.

Checkmate, old chap.

Definitely (I think I just didn't know exactly what you were trying to say)

But I'm still waiting for that person to appear.

 

[Kenny]

But why is baptism an "example" to begin with whereas it's used as a litmus test for being in the community leadership if the communal aspect of baptism supposedly isn't necessarily even there?

It is an example of obedience. Maybe I am just wording it wrong.

Baptism sets up responsibilities that the baptized must agree with and try to follow when baptized and after being baptized. If they refuse to follow through on these responsibilities, they may be excommunicated or removed in some way ("does a rose by any other name..."?). For example, it is expected that a person acts morally as some sort of confession of beliefs, which normally goes along with baptism and/or "confirmation", and these expectations are largely established by the denomination and/or local church. The Amish undoubtedly have some different expectations that your church likely has.

Again... maybe it is just terminology (in other words) maybe what your definition is for a word is different from what I am defining it.

Certainly if a leader is not following moral standards he would be removed from that position.

But Baptism(for us) isn't translated into that all of a sudden they are morally correct or that they have eliminated every bad habit. For us it is just declaring that Jesus is Lord, they are new creatures and that they are committed to the journey.

Did I explain myself well?

 

[metis]

But Baptism(for us) isn't translated into that all of a sudden they are morally correct or that they have eliminated every bad habit.

I was saying in what is supposed to happen, not necessarily what does happen.

For us it is just declaring that Jesus is Lord, they are new creatures and that they are committed to the journey.

Exactly, and this is done communally because both sin and good works have an affect on the community as a whole. And this is what makes Christianity, Judaism, and Islam different than the eastern religions in that the Abrahamic are instructed to meet in community, thus faith, and what comes out of it, has both a personal and a communal effect. In Christianity, as you stated, it is a recognition that "Jesus is lord" and that one has an obligation to reflect that both personally and communally.

Did I explain myself well?

Of course, my friend-- finally! .

 

[Kenny]

Exactly, and this is done communally because both sin and good works have an affect on the community as a whole. And this is what makes Christianity, Judaism, and Islam different than the eastern religions in that the Abrahamic are instructed to meet in community, thus faith, and what comes out of it, has both a personal and a communal effect. In Christianity, as you stated, it is a recognition that "Jesus is lord" and that one has an obligation to reflect that both personally and communally.

You really have me thinking now! THIS IS WORK! And you have me stumped. (not an easy thing to do, mind you)

How are they different? It seems, to me, the results are the same. But I bow to the sage for instruction.

 

[metis]

You really have me thinking now! THIS IS WORK! And you have me stumped. (not an easy thing to do, mind you)

Good!

How are they different? It seems, to me, the results are the same.

How are who different? [now let's not get into the "Who's on first?" Abbot & Costello discussion]

But I bow to the sage for instruction.

"Sage"? I think you're confused as most the know me well think I have the IQ of sagebrush.

 

[e.r.m.]

And that's pretty much my point. For one to say that they need not be baptized is like saying that they really don't believe in Jesus-- at least that's the way I believe most would take it.

Agreed.

 

[Kenny]

Good!

How are who different? [now let's not get into the "Who's on first?" Abbot & Costello discussion]

"Sage"? I think you're confused as most the know me well think I have the IQ of sagebrush.

LOL - you know how you can stare at something and not see it for looking? I reread and got it... nothing is different!

 

[RabbiO]

"Sage"? I think you're confused as most the know me well think I have the IQ of sagebrush.

They may know you well, but they obviously don't know sagebrush very well. If they did they'd realize that they were giving you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Muffled]

Conservative Presbyterian churches do not have altar calls. Altar calls are not Biblical. There is a lot of difficult theology in Calvinism. It takes a lot of serious study to understand it. I don't accept it all, they know it, and they still let me teach.

Except for 2 doctrines, Calvin does reference Scripture for what He says.

Would you mind telling m e what road the Holy Spirit took you to?

I had a vision of a person meditating over a candle. There was a message with the vision to move on. As usual for me I asked for a church and was sent to the Society of Friends. That fit right in with the vision since Friends spend most of worship time meditating.
I left that church because I had moved to another town further than I wished to commute.

 

[Muffled]

I;m not sure I would go that far... Peter's first sermon had an altar call.

If it isn't Biblical, I'm so glad God didn't care when my wife and I along with her sister gave our lives at an altar call.

I believe that begs the question of whether we follow the Bible or we follow Jesus. I believe the whole idea of Christianity is that we are not bound by law but are free to follow Jesus.

I believe I am happy for you also. It isn't necessary of course because Jesus can save anyone anywhere. I was in my rocking chair on my porch when I received Jesus as Lord and Savior. I almost answered an altar call but evidently wasn't quite ready but I appreciate that the opportunity was available.

 

[Muffled]

How deeply does he explain salvation?

I believe he explains it simply because it is simple.

 

[Muffled]

I answered an altar call after being saved so that I could be baptized. Alter calls are often made for prayer, and healing as well.

 

[omega2xx]

I had a vision of a person meditating over a candle. There was a message with the vision to move on. As usual for me I asked for a church and was sent to the Society of Friends. That fit right in with the vision since Friends spend most of worship time meditating.
I left that church because I had moved to another town further than I wished to commute.

I no nothing about the Society of Friends.