Question for the Evangelical Community

[Muffled]

Just a question: do you belong to one?

I believe that is a good question for me to answer as well. I attend an SBC church but I am a member of a Congregational Church that I felt had not done enough to separate from Apostates.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I believe that is a general statement that is not true of all churches.

Can you explain by example, how you feel that not true of all churches.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I believe you need to show a basis for your belief. I believe you ought to remember that events in Rev are not necessarily serial.

Can you explain, what you mean by not necessarily serial ?

 

[Faithofchristian]

Well the first question to be ask is.

Are they following man's teachings on how to be saved or are they following God's teachings on how to be saved?

 

[Muffled]

Can you explain by example, how you feel that not true of all churches.

For example my pastor goes through the Bible systematically and sticks to the meaning of the verses covered. It is hard to see how that works for personal gain. In fact those who peach more from the Spirit also do not appear to be seeking their own gain.

 

[Muffled]

Can you explain, what you mean by not necessarily serial ?

I mean that there is no guarantee that one event in revelations follows another directly. I believe one must view the context to determine if something follows directly.

 

[Muffled]

Well the first question to be ask is.

Are they following man's teachings on how to be saved or are they following God's teachings on how to be saved?

I believe they are following their understanding of the Bible and it seems to me that it is pretty easy to understand.

 

[e.r.m.]

Metis... I really have NEVER seen someone who said "I believe in Jesus" turn around and say "I will NOT be baptized". It has always been... "Help me understand... why? what? when? Am I worthy enough?

It has never been "NO I WON'T" but rather "No, I don't have enough understanding to make a quality decision".

IF this hypothetical person that has never crossed my path said "NO I WON'T, NOT NOW, NOR EVER" then certainly I wouldn't put that attitude in a position of leadership and would question if he really made Jesus Lord. But we accept people into our services no matter what type of person they are because the words of God are filled with live changing power.

IF this hypothetical person that has never crossed my path either said "NO I WON'T, NOT NOW, NOR EVER" then he is always welcome at our services, but not considered a member. Why would there be a question that he/she has not made Jesus Lord?

 

[e.r.m.]

I believe that begs the question of whether we follow the Bible or we follow Jesus. I believe the whole idea of Christianity is that we are not bound by law but are free to follow Jesus.

I believe I am happy for you also. It isn't necessary of course because Jesus can save anyone anywhere. I was in my rocking chair on my porch when I received Jesus as Lord and Savior. I almost answered an altar call but evidently wasn't quite ready but I appreciate that the opportunity was available.

If the question is one of "location" then indeed God can save anyone anywhere through Jesus Christ. I knew of someone who believed and was baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:26-27) in a makeshift tub "in jail" which broke apart and spilt water everywhere after he arose from the water.

If the question is that God can save anyone in whichever "way", then it's really not a question if God can, God "can" do all things. The question is what is God's "will" on the matter. God never never laid the the precedent that everyone is saved in the manner of their own choosing. Confessing/Accepting Jesus as Lord (Romans 10:9-10, Colossians 2:6) are in Scripture, but the "add-on" getting saved method known as "Accepting Jesus as savior" is nowhere in scripture. One cannot "make up" their own way of getting saved and then put that under the umbrella of God's power or will. Making up one's own way does not provide one with assurance of salvation.

 

[e.r.m.]

I believe he explains it simply because it is simple.

It is very simple until someone tries to match this simplified message to the scriptures and points out all the inconsistencies. Then it's surprising how complicated the explanations become to justify these inconsistencies. They go into the "Big picture" and all sorts of stuff. If a simple message is actually true, then it would simply match up with scripture, and wouldn't need these over the top explanations.

For example,
Why didn't anyone after Jesus's resurrection lead anyone in an "Accepting Jesus as savior" prayer as is supposedly the inevitable conclusion of favorite altar call scriptures like Romans 1:16, 10:9-10?

Why is the gospel of the kingdom, which is preached consistently by Jesus Luke 4:43 and the apostles Acts 8:12 "before people are saved", completely ignored in the simplified message?

 

[Kenny]

IF this hypothetical person that has never crossed my path either said "NO I WON'T, NOT NOW, NOR EVER" then he is always welcome at our services, but not considered a member. Why would there be a question that he/she has not made Jesus Lord?

Everyone is welcomed to church... but why would you call Jesus Lord if you had no interest in doing something He wants you to?

 

[e.r.m.]

Everyone is welcomed to church... but why would you call Jesus Lord if you had no interest in doing something He wants you to?

Agreed.

 

[Muffled]

If the question is one of "location" then indeed God can save anyone anywhere through Jesus Christ. I knew of someone who believed and was baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:26-27) in a makeshift tub "in jail" which broke apart and spilt water everywhere after he arose from the water.

If the question is that God can save anyone in whichever "way", then it's really not a question if God can, God "can" do all things. The question is what is God's "will" on the matter. God never never laid the the precedent that everyone is saved in the manner of their own choosing. Confessing/Accepting Jesus as Lord (Romans 10:9-10, Colossians 2:6) are in Scripture, but the "add-on" getting saved method known as "Accepting Jesus as savior" is nowhere in scripture. One cannot "make up" their own way of getting saved and then put that under the umbrella of God's power or will. Making up one's own way does not provide one with assurance of salvation.

I believe accepting is equivalent to receiving. One may accept or receive a gift. The latter just means I have it but not that I am real happy to have it but the former means I am real happy to have it.

Col 2:6 As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him,

 

[e.r.m.]

I believe accepting is equivalent to receiving. One may accept or receive a gift. The latter just means I have it but not that I am real happy to have it but the former means I am real happy to have it.

Col 2:6 As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him,

I also believe accepting is equivalent to receiving. The difference is splitting hairs.

I don't know why you brought this up.

As mentioned before, Confessing/Accepting Jesus as Lord (Romans 10:9-10, Colossians 2:6) are in Scripture, but the "add-on" getting saved method known as "Accepting Jesus as savior" is nowhere in scripture.

 

[Muffled]

It is very simple until someone tries to match this simplified message to the scriptures and points out all the inconsistencies. Then it's surprising how complicated the explanations become to justify these inconsistencies. They go into the "Big picture" and all sorts of stuff. If a simple message is actually true, then it would simply match up with scripture, and wouldn't need these over the top explanations.

For example,
Why didn't anyone after Jesus's resurrection lead anyone in an "Accepting Jesus as savior" prayer as is supposedly the inevitable conclusion of favorite altar call scriptures like Romans 1:16, 10:9-10?

Why is the gospel of the kingdom, which is preached consistently by Jesus Luke 4:43 and the apostles Acts 8:12 "before people are saved", completely ignored in the simplified message?

I believe that is covered by this verse:
Rom 10:13 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I believe it is due to the fact that Pastors like Paul's gospel better. I believe people come to belief in Jesus in a variety of ways. I came to Jesus because of Paul's gospel more or less since it was the Resurrection that opened the door for me. However both messages of the gospels are simple and easy to understand.
I Cor. 15:1 ¶ Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand,
2 by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures;

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

In an Anglican church salvation is hardly mentioned at all, which might be thought strange, since the Westminster confession is almost entirely Calvanistic in nature. and official church doctrine.

Evangelical Anglicans follow much their own path. and do emphasise being "Saved"
They tend to be a very vocal group but have little effect on decisions made in Synod,which has become increasingly Liberal.

However a fairly large majority of Anglicans in the UK are very liberal indeed and almost "Dogma" less.
Most would believe that we are responsible for our own sins, and that with confessions and repentance they will receive eternal life.
Some but not all believe in Judgement day, most would believe that a personal Judgement occurs at death.
They do not believe that their path is already chosen.
Very little of Calvin like teaching occurs at all.
There is no emphasis on being saved, nor is it generally believed that you can be saved in this life.

Anglican churches mostly are based on worship, not dogma.
Sermons are usually based on the more social aspects of Jesus teachings.

 

[e.r.m.]

I believe that is covered by this verse:
Rom 10:13 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This is an instruction, not an event. And a generic statement of invoking Jesus's name does not indicate they were performing "Accepting Jesus as savior" prayers.

I believe it is due to the fact that Pastors like Paul's gospel better. I believe people come to belief in Jesus in a variety of ways. I came to Jesus because of Paul's gospel more or less since it was the Resurrection that opened the door for me. However both messages of the gospels are simple and easy to understand.

I Cor. 15:1 ¶ Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand,
2 by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures;

The gospel of the kingdom is part of "the gospel". Paul's gospel included the gospel of the kingdom
Acts 28:23,30-31 They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus. [30] For two whole years Paul stayed there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him. [31] He proclaimed the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ---with all boldness and without hindrance!

To not preach the gospel of the kingdom to the lost, because they don't like it as much, is wrong.

 

[e.r.m.]

In an Anglican church salvation is hardly mentioned at all, which might be thought strange, since the Westminster confession is almost entirely Calvanistic in nature. and official church doctrine.

Evangelical Anglicans follow much their own path. and do emphasise being "Saved"
They tend to be a very vocal group but have little effect on decisions made in Synod,which has become increasingly Liberal.

However a fairly large majority of Anglicans in the UK are very liberal indeed and almost "Dogma" less.
Most would believe that we are responsible for our own sins, and that with confessions and repentance they will receive eternal life.
Some but not all believe in Judgement day, most would believe that a personal Judgement occurs at death.
They do not believe that their path is already chosen.
Very little of Calvin like teaching occurs at all.
There is no emphasis on being saved, nor is it generally believed that you can be saved in this life.

Anglican churches mostly are based on worship, not dogma.
Sermons are usually based on the more social aspects of Jesus teachings.

Leaving out salvation is preaching a horribly incomplete Christianity.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Leaving out salvation is preaching a horribly incomplete Christianity.

Why is that?
Salvation is not something you can go after, predict or do anything about, that is, according to most teachings.
Christianity is in reality about Loving God, Your fellow man and looking after God's creation in the way that Jesus taught.
It is not about looking for or earning rewards. even gifts as great as Salvation.
Salvation is not held over our heads as a sort of punishment gift, that will be withheld if we do not believe or misbehave.

All men are open to Salvation, Christian or not in, the next life.
There is absolutely no way to buy your self a free ticket...

We behave the way we do in this life because we love God, not because of a potential reward.

 

[e.r.m.]

Why is that?
Salvation is not something you can go after, predict or do anything about, that is, according to most teachings.
Christianity is in reality about Loving God, Your fellow man and looking after God's creation in the way that Jesus taught.
It is not about looking for or earning rewards. even gifts as great as Salvation.
Salvation is not held over our heads as a sort of punishment gift, that will be withheld if we do not believe or misbehave.

All men are open to Salvation, Christian or not in, the next life.
There is absolutely no way to buy your self a free ticket...

We behave the way we do in this life because we love God, not because of a potential reward.

That helps to understand your viewpoint. Sounds very Zwinglian.

It is incomplete because in the Bible they did preach salvation a lot.