Question for the Evangelical Community

[omega2xx]

I answered an altar call after being saved so that I could be baptized. Alter calls are often made for prayer, and healing as well.

For someone to gown for a special need is a good thing. In Sunday school we end with praying for the sick members, our pastor our nation and any other thing that someone feels led to pray about.

 

[Deeje]

@e.r.m. Do you believe that salvation is something that happens in the present or the future?

From my own studies in the Bible, it appears to me that salvation is a future event. One can work on getting saved by applying the Bible's directives in their lives......but what we are getting saved from, is God's anger expressed against those who have disobeyed the teachings of his Christ.

His appointed judge is of course Jesus.....who will judge righteously and individually according to the way a person has responded to the Christian message.

Jesus said that "this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come".

What is the "good news (gospel) of the kingdom" in your understanding?

 

[Deeje]

There are 2 things that happened before the creation.

It can seem to mean that until you dig a little deeper.

--WE were chosen in Christ---Eph 1:4

--Our names were written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world---Rev 13:8

Who were chosen? If we examine that verse more closely and see what those verses are really saying, they don't mean what they appear to be saying in English.

Ephesians 1:4 ASV...."even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love"

Same with Revelation.....so what does it mean "before the foundation of the world"?

According to Thayers Greek Lexicon, "foundation" means.....

"a throwing or laying down

1. the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb
   
   
2. of the seed of plants and animals".
   

This does not mean "before the creation of the earth", but before the foundation of "the world of mankind" (kosmos) through Adam and Eve. It means the conception of children resulting in the human race. So no one is individually "chosen" to be saved before birth....
There is no pre-destination. It is the government of God...his kingdom that was foreordained to take redeemed mankind back into a close relationship with God, as Adam had before he disobeyed.
Salvation isn't something handed to us with no effort on our part....

The apostle Paul wrote to the Philippians....
Philippians 2:12:
"So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

And we can lose our salvation as the apostle Peter indicated......
2 Peter 2:20-22:
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first. 21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 It has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog turning to his own vomit again, and the sow that had washed to wallowing in the mire.

Presbyterian theology teaches that man plays no part in his salvation. It is all of God. people object to that because it rejects man's free will. Because the Bible speaks both of God soverginty and man's free will. I believed they are both true. It is an antinomy---2 truths that SEEM to contradictory.

Actually it is partly God and partly us. We are the ones who exercise our free will and choose to serve God through obedience to Christ's teachings. God is the reader of hearts, so once he detects that a person is searching for him with the right motive, he will draw that person to the truth. (John 6:44) He will not force or coerce anyone, but reveal himself to them in promoting a hunger for spiritual food.....and just like a starving individual.....we always want more. (Matthew 5:6)
It is why Jesus referred to himself as "the bread of life". (John 6:35)

When you were born did you start living or dying---both are true.

Since humans were never created to die, death seems like it shouldn't happen. It is all we have ever known, thanks to our first parents, but it is as foreign to us now as it was back then. Everlasting life is programmed into us and we have a collective expectation to go on living.....it is a hard thing to grasp because getting old and feeble feels so unnatural because aging does not take place in the mind...it happens only in the body.

Everlasting life in paradise conditions on earth was God's first purpose for humankind.....he did not abandon that purpose because of a few rebels, but used the consequences to demonstrate the folly of disobedience. This lesson will set precedents for all eternity to come, meaning that no rebel will ever be able to challenge God's sovereignty again.

 

[e.r.m.]

@e.r.m. Do you believe that salvation is something that happens in the present or the future?

From my own studies in the Bible, it appears to me that salvation is a future event. One can work on getting saved by applying the Bible's directives in their lives......but what we are getting saved from, is God's anger expressed against those who have disobeyed the teachings of his Christ.

His appointed judge is of course Jesus.....who will judge righteously and individually according to the way a person has responded to the Christian message.

Jesus said that "this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come".

Thank you.

What is the "good news (gospel) of the kingdom" in your understanding?

Basically, the latest incarnation of the people of God and God's dominion thereof that He was reestablishing with the church beginning at Pentecost, to which Peter had the keys and used them to usher in the kingdom on that day, and to which Jesus predicted would need to be entered by water and spirit John 3:5 and was fulfilled with Acts 2:37-39, 41 and that God was making this all possible through his son Jesus Christ. That doesn't cover all of it, but most.

 

[Kenny]

It can seem to mean that until you dig a little deeper.



Who were chosen? If we examine that verse more closely and see what those verses are really saying, they don't mean what they appear to be saying in English.

Ephesians 1:4 ASV...."even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love"

Same with Revelation.....so what does it mean "before the foundation of the world"?

According to Thayers Greek Lexicon, "foundation" means.....

"a throwing or laying down

1. the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb
   
   
2. of the seed of plants and animals".

This does not mean "before the creation of the earth", but before the foundation of "the world of mankind" (kosmos) through Adam and Eve. It means the conception of children resulting in the human race. So no one is individually "chosen" to be saved before birth....
There is no pre-destination. It is the government of God...his kingdom that was foreordained to take redeemed mankind back into a close relationship with God, as Adam had before he disobeyed.
Salvation isn't something handed to us with no effort on our part....

The apostle Paul wrote to the Philippians....
Philippians 2:12:
"So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

And we can lose our salvation as the apostle Peter indicated......
2 Peter 2:20-22:
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first. 21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 It has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog turning to his own vomit again, and the sow that had washed to wallowing in the mire.



Actually it is partly God and partly us. We are the ones who exercise our free will and choose to serve God through obedience to Christ's teachings. God is the reader of hearts, so once he detects that a person is searching for him with the right motive, he will draw that person to the truth. (John 6:44) He will not force or coerce anyone, but reveal himself to them in promoting a hunger for spiritual food.....and just like a starving individual.....we always want more. (Matthew 5:6)
It is why Jesus referred to himself as "the bread of life". (John 6:35)



Since humans were never created to die, death seems like it shouldn't happen. It is all we have ever known, thanks to our first parents, but it is as foreign to us now as it was back then. Everlasting life is programmed into us and we have a collective expectation to go on living.....it is a hard thing to grasp because getting old and feeble feels so unnatural because aging does not take place in the mind...it happens only in the body.

Everlasting life in paradise conditions on earth was God's first purpose for humankind.....he did not abandon that purpose because of a few rebels, but used the consequences to demonstrate the folly of disobedience. This lesson will set precedents for all eternity to come, meaning that no rebel will ever be able to challenge God's sovereignty again.

A great piece.

This is why Peter was able to write 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If only some were predestined, then He wouldn't wall all to come to repentance.

It remains partly God and partly man as God wanted all to come to repentance but man must choose. God designed us for eternity but we decide which eternity we want to live.

 

[omega2xx]

It can seem to mean that until you dig a little deeper.

It is that way if you dig a lot deep;er.

Who were chosen?

Think about adoption(Eph 1:5) and that should answer your question.

If we examine that verse more closely and see what those verses are really saying, they don't mean what they appear to be saying in English.

If you don't interpret it according to your own theology, it certainly does,

Ephesians 1:4 ASV...."even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love"
What we were chose for doe snot change when we were chosen.

Same with Revelation.....so what does it mean "before the foundation of the world"?

According to Thayers Greek Lexicon, "foundation" means.....

"a throwing or laying down

1. the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb
   
   
2. of the seed of plants and animals".

This does not mean "before the creation of the earth", but before the foundation of "the world of mankind" (kosmos) through Adam and Eve. It means the conception of children resulting in the human race. So no one is individually "chosen" to be saved before birth....
There is no pre-destination. It is the government of God...his kingdom that was foreordained to take redeemed mankind back into a close relationship with God, as Adam had before he disobeyed.

Katabole" can mean that but it is not limited to that one meaning. It can also mean "the laying down of a foundation in the sense of founding or metaphorically of the foundation of the world. Vine, Exp[ository Dictionary of N.T. Words.

Salvation isn't something handed to us with no effort on our part....

It is if you understnd "grace" and "gift(Eph 2:8-9).

The apostle Paul wrote to the Philippians....
Philippians 2:12:
"So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Work out the salvation God had given you as a gift by using the spiritual gift He has also given you as a gift,. Paul said "woe to me if I do not preach." Woe to any Christian who does not use their God-given spiritual gift to glorify the One who gave it to them.

And we can lose our salvation as the apostle Peter indicated......
2 Peter 2:20-22:
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first. 21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 It has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog turning to his own vomit again, and the sow that had washed to wallowing in the mire.

Those verses are not about salvation, they are about backsliders. I will give you 4 verses, and ther are many more, that teach eternal security.

I Pet 1:23 - "You have been born again not of seed which is perishable, but inperishable...

When one is born physically the can't be unborn; when one is born spiritually they also cant be unborn. If you understand "imperishable", you understand you can't perish.

Phil 1:6 - For I am confident in this very thing, that He who begun a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ. God completes what He starts i us.

Heb 12:2 - Fixing our eyes on Jesus the author(the One who gave you your faith)and perfecter of faith...Jesus is the One who perfects our faith, not our self.

I Jn 5:13 - These things I have written that you may know that you have eternal life. If we can lose our salvation, that verse can't be true.

Actually it is partly God and partly us. We are the ones who exercise our free will and choose to serve God through obedience to Christ's teachings. God is the reader of hearts, so once he detects that a person is searching for him with the right motive, he will draw that person to the truth. (John 6:44) He will not force or coerce anyone, but reveal himself to them in promoting a hunger for spiritual food.....and just like a starving individual.....we always want more. (Matthew 5:6)

The natural man cant understand the thing of God, they are foolishness to him(I Cor 2:14). Therefore man can't choose God.

Rom 9:16 - So then it does not depend on the man who will or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. Jn 1:13 say basically the same thing.

Also consider Jn 6:37-40. Christian have been given to Jesus by God---He will not cast them out and He will not lose any of them--It is God's will that everyone He give Jesus, He will not lose any of them.

It is why Jesus referred to himself as "the bread of life". (John 6:35) ]

Bread symmbolized God's word---man shall not live by bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God. It is God's word that nourishes us and causes us to grow spiritually that keeps us alive spiritually.

Since humans were never created to die, death seems like it shouldn't happen. It is all we have ever known, thanks to our first parents, but it is as foreign to us now as it was back then. Everlasting life is programmed into us and we have a collective expectation to go on living.....it is a hard thing to grasp because getting old and feeble feels so unnatural because aging does not take place in the mind...it happens only in the body.

Basically true. If you get to my age(85) you will see it also take place in the mind.

Everlasting life in paradise conditions on earth was God's first purpose for humankind.....he did not abandon that purpose because of a few rebels, but used the consequences to demonstrate the folly of disobedience. This lesson will set precedents for all eternity to come, meaning that no rebel will ever be able to challenge God's sovereignty again.

Not only the folly of disobedience but also the example of His love---Where sin did abound, grace did much more abound(Rom 5:20).

We can't out sin God's grace.

 

[Deeje]

@omega2xx thank you for your post, but the quotes are scrambled and it may take me a while to discipher it. Please bear with me and I will get to it in the morning. Its time for bed here in Oz......till then......

 

[omega2xx]

@omega2xx thank you for your post, but the quotes are scrambled and it may take me a while to discipher it. Please bear with me and I will get to it in the morning. Its time for bed here in Oz......till then......

Thanks and I am sorry for using the wrong format. In another forum I have been in for about 25-30 years, they use a different format and sometimes i forget and use their format to show quotes. If you give me the post number, I will be glad to redo it.

 

[Deeje]

Thanks and I am sorry for using the wrong format. In another forum I have been in for about 25-30 years, they use a different format and sometimes i forget and use their format to show quotes. If you give me the post number, I will be glad to redo it.

#186 just above, you will see that it appears to be a very short post, but when you open it up, it is all mixed up together.

If you could redo it, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

 

[omega2xx]

#186 just above, you will see that it appears to be a very short post, but when you open it up, it is all mixed up together.

If you could redo it, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

I'm on my way back.

 

[omega2xx]

I'm on my way back.

 

[omega2xx]

Who were chosen?

Think about adoption(Eph 1:5) and that should answer your question. In adoption, the one adopted does not make the choice of who is chosen.

Same with Revelation.....so what does it mean "before the foundation of the world"?

According to Thayers Greek Lexicon, "foundation" means.....
a throwing or laying down

1. the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb
   
   
2. of the seed of plants and animals".

This does not mean "before the creation of the earth", but before the foundation of "the world of mankind" (kosmos) through Adam and Eve. It means the conception of children resulting in the human race. So no one is individually "chosen" to be saved before birth....
There is no pre-destination. It is the government of God...his kingdom that was foreordained to take redeemed mankind back into a close relationship with God, as Adam had before he disobeyed.

Katabole" can mean that but it is not limited to that one meaning. It can also mean "the laying down of a foundation in the sense of founding or metaphorically of the foundation of the world. Vine, Expository Dictionary of N.T. Words.

/The apostle Paul wrote to the Philippians....
Phillippians 2:12:
"So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Work out the salvation God had given you as a gift by using the spiritual gift He has also given you as a gift,. Paul said "woe to me if I do not preach." Woe to any Christian who does not use their God-given spiritual gift to glorify the One who gave it to them.

And we can lose our salvation as the apostle Peter indicated......
2 Peter 2:20-22:
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first. 21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 It has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog turning to his own vomit again, and the sow that had washed to wallowing in the mire.[/QUOTE]


Those verses are not about salvation, they are about backsliders. I will give you 4 verses, and there are many more, that teach eternal security.

I Pet 1:23 - "You have been born again not of seed which is perishable, but imperishable...

When one is born physically the can't be unborn; when one is born spiritually they also cant be unborn. If you understand "imperishable", you understand you can't perish.

Phil 1:6 - For I am confident in this very thing, that He who begun a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ. God completes what He starts i us.

Heb 12:2 - Fixing our eyes on Jesus the author(the One who gave you your faith)and perfecter of faith...Jesus is the One who perfects our faith, not our self.

I Jn 5:13 - These things I have written that you may know that you have eternal life. If we can lose our salvation, that verse can't be true.

Actually it is partly God and partly us. We are the ones who exercise our free will and choose to serve God through obedience to Christ's teachings. God is the reader of hearts, so once he detects that a person is searching for him with the right motive, he will draw that person to the truth. (John 6:44) He will not force or coerce anyone, but reveal himself to them in promoting a hunger for spiritual food.....and just like a starving individual.....we always want more. (Matthew 5:6)

The natural man cant understand the thing of God, they are foolishness to him(I Cor 2:14). Therefore man can't choose God.

Rom 9:16 - So then it does not depend on the man who will or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. Jn 1:13 say basically the same thing.

Also consider Jn 6:37-40. Christian have been given to Jesus by God---He will not cast them out and He will not lose any of them--It is God's will that everyone He give Jesus, He will not lose any of them.

It is why Jesus referred to himself as "the bread of life". (John 6:35)

Bread symbolized God's word---man shall not live by bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God. It is God's word that nourishes us and causes us to grow spiritually that keeps us alive spiritually.

Since humans were never created to die, death seems like it shouldn't happen. It is all we have ever known, thanks to our first parents, but it is as foreign to us now as it was back then. Everlasting life is programmed into us and we have a collective expectation to go on living.....it is a hard thing to grasp because getting old and feeble feels so unnatural because aging does not take place in the mind...it happens only in the body.

Basically true. If you get to my age(85) you will see it also take place in the mind.

Everlasting life in paradise conditions on earth was God's first purpose for humankind.....he did not abandon that purpose because of a few rebels, but used the consequences to demonstrate the folly of disobedience. This lesson will set precedents for all eternity to come, meaning that no rebel will ever be able to challenge God's sovereignty again.

Not only the folly of disobedience but also the example of His love---Where sin did abound, grace did much more abound(Rom 5:20).

We can't out sin God's grace.

Salvation isn't something handed to us with no effort on our part....

It is if you understand "grace" and "gift(Eph 2:8-9).

I think I got it all corrected.

 

[Deeje]

Think about adoption(Eph 1:5) and that should answer your question. In adoption, the one adopted does not make the choice of who is chosen.

An adoption takes place because of what circumstance? You can't adopt someone who already has a living parent.
Initially God adopted the nation of Israel as his children and just being born into a Jewish family meant that you were automatically bound by God's laws. When Christ came, he instituted a "new covenant" whereby both Jews and Gentiles could become part of Christ's "church". Both Jews and Gentiles had to be adopted into that family by baptism. This was a voluntary act to publicly demonstrate a new life-course as a disciple of God's Christ. Were those Gentiles or Jews pre-determined? If so, why bother preaching?

Jesus' instruction was....Matthew 10:11-15:
“Whatever town or village you enter, find out who is receptive in it and stay there until you leave. 12 As you enter the house, greet its occupants. 13 If the household is receptive, let your blessing of peace come on it. But if it isn’t receptive, let your blessing of peace return to you. 14 If no one welcomes you or listens to your words, as you leave that house or town, shake its dust off your feet. 15 I tell all of you with certainty, it will be more bearable for the region of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town!”

If people were pre-ordained before creation, then why preach and have to shake the dust off their feet? Why go through all this trouble and tragedy? If God had wanted people in heaven, why not put them there in the first place, like he did the angels?

Katabole" can mean that but it is not limited to that one meaning. It can also mean "the laying down of a foundation in the sense of founding or metaphorically of the foundation of the world. Vine, Expository Dictionary of N.T. Words.

The world here is the "kosmos".....what is meant by the word "cosmopolitan"?

One definition is...."familiar with and at ease in many different countries and cultures." or

1. "(of a plant or animal) found all over the world."

It doesn't mean the "planet", but the "world" of mankind, descended from Adam. They laid the foundation for the human race, making it necessary for God to send his son into the world to redeem them. Unless Adam sinned, no redemption would have been necessary.

Those verses are not about salvation, they are about backsliders. I will give you 4 verses, and there are many more, that teach eternal security.

I Pet 1:23 - "You have been born again not of seed which is perishable, but imperishable...

I do not dispute the eternal nature of salvation. I am saying that heaven was not where God ever intended humans to live.
The ones chosen to rule with Christ in his kingdom are specially chosen by him to serve mankind in the capacity of 'kings and priests'. (Revelation 20:6) These are resurrected "first" to assume their heavenly role...but they are to rule over earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:2-4) These are the ones who must be "born again".....raised in a spiritual body so that they can dwell in the presence of God and his Lamb, and given immortality.

When one is born physically the can't be unborn; when one is born spiritually they also cant be unborn. If you understand "imperishable", you understand you can't perish.

We see this through very different lenses. Immortality can only be gifted to spirit creatures. Physical fleshly beings cannot exist in the spirit realm. Those "dead in Christ" are "raised first" in order to establish the kingdom in heaven in preparation for the "new earth" and its inhabitants. (2 Peter 3:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

Phil 1:6 - For I am confident in this very thing, that He who begun a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ. God completes what He starts i us.

What do you understand the "the day of Jesus Christ" to be? What purpose does it serve? If those who died without being pre-destined for life, what was the purpose of their existence? Not all who call themselves "Christians" will pass muster. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Heb 12:2 - Fixing our eyes on Jesus the author(the One who gave you your faith)and perfecter of faith...Jesus is the One who perfects our faith, not our self.

Jesus is the one who "perfects our faith"...no doubt about that...but we must choose to obey his teachings and fight the sin that is in our flesh. (Romans 7:21-25)

1 John 2:17 ..."the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever."
Jesus said "But the one who has endured to the end will be saved". These verses do not allude to salvation with no way to lose it. We have to be 'doing the will of God' which requires endurance in faithfulness on our part.

I Jn 5:13 - These things I have written that you may know that you have eternal life. If we can lose our salvation, that verse can't be true.

Once a Christian is anoited with God's spirit, he/she has a token granting them eternal life. If there was no way to lose their salvation, then they could sin every day in the worst way without fear of losing their place.

Paul wrote at Phillipians 3:12-16
" It’s not that I have already reached this goal or have already become perfect. But I keep pursuing it, hoping somehow to embrace it just as I have been embraced by the Messiah Jesus. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself to have embraced it yet. But this one thing I do: Forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I keep pursuing the goal to win the prize of God’s heavenly call in the Messiah Jesus.
15 Therefore, those of us who are mature should think this way. And if you think differently about anything, God will show you how to think.16 However, we should live up to what we have achieved so far."

Salvation is not achieved until the course is completed..."faithful unto death", these ones receive "the crown of life".

The natural man cant understand the thing of God, they are foolishness to him(I Cor 2:14). Therefore man can't choose God.

I have to disagree. We can't choose to be spiritual but we can choose to be obedient.

Also consider Jn 6:37-40. Christian have been given to Jesus by God---He will not cast them out and He will not lose any of them--It is God's will that everyone He give Jesus, He will not lose any of them.

He will not lose the faithful ones that is true. But there are those who will stumble....Matthew 18:2-6.

Bread symbolized God's word---man shall not live by bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God. It is God's word that nourishes us and causes us to grow spiritually that keeps us alive spiritually.

Yes I agree, but the partaking of the bread and wine were for those taken into the new covenant. Not all are parties to that covenant since it was reserved for Christ's disciples. Men and women of pre-Christian times were not parties to that covenant, but like many other Christians, they will be beneficiaries of it.....having the best world government possible in the resurrection.

Basically true. If you get to my age(85) you will see it also take place in the mind.

If you have your mental faculties, which at 85 I see yours are as sharp as a tack, and using your computer like a pro.....aging takes place in the body and the mind might slow down, but inside I am as young as I was when I was a girl. I am now in my late sixties and feeling my age. Its hard to see this old version of yourself and remember what you used to look like....only old on the outside. I am looking forward to life in the new earth as one of its inhabitants....restored to youth and perfect health.
It is what God intended at the beginning.....and what Christ's death will get back for us.

Not only the folly of disobedience but also the example of His love---Where sin did abound, grace did much more abound(Rom 5:20).

We can't out sin God's grace.

God's capacity for forgiveness is enormous....but only if there is genuine repentance. God's grace is not a licence to sin.

It is if you understand "grace" and "gift(Eph 2:8-9).

I do understand but I don't see it the way you do.

I think I got it all corrected.

Thank you for your effort. I am very impressed by your articulate presentation at your age and look forward to speaking with you again soon.

 

[omega2xx]

An adoption takes place because of what circumstance? You can't adopt someone who already has a living parent.

No rue. My son adopted a son of his wife and both of his parents were living. However is in an adoption, the adopted child did not choose the parents.

Initially God adopted the nation of Israel as his children and just being born into a Jewish family meant that you were automatically bound by God's laws. When Christ came, he instituted a "new covenant" whereby both Jews and Gentiles could become part of Christ's "church". Both Jews and Gentiles had to be adopted into that family by baptism. This was a voluntary act to publicly demonstrate a new life-course as a disciple of God's Christ. Were those Gentiles or Jews pre-determined? If so, why bother preaching?

Jews and Gentiles could always become part of God's family. The first Jew, Abram, started out as a idol worshiping pagan. Another example of God choosing

Jesus' instruction was....Matthew 10:11-15:
“Whatever town or village you enter, find out who is receptive in it and stay there until you leave. 12 As you enter the house, greet its occupants. 13 If the household is receptive, let your blessing of peace come on it. But if it isn’t receptive, let your blessing of peace return to you. 14 If no one welcomes you or listens to your words, as you leave that house or town, shake its dust off your feet. 15 I tell all of you with certainty, it will be more bearable for the region of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town!”

If people were pre-ordained before creation, then why preach and have to shake the dust off their feet? Why go through all this trouble and tragedy? If God had wanted people in heaven, why not put them there in the first place, like he did the angels?

Mainly because God tells us to evangelize. The purpose of spiritual gifts is mainly to build up the church spiritually(Eph 4:11-14). Notice one of the gifts in v11 is evangelists. Another purpose of spiritual gifts is to make us feel God is using us and that makes us feel closer to God.

I hate to read and I hat to study more, but God stuck my nose in the Bible and since He is stronger than I am, I can't get it out. As a result, God has made me a teacher, another gift mention in v11. Because this is so contrary to my nature, I know God did it. My wife use to say me reading the Bible and teaching it, was a greater miracle than God parting the Red Sea.

Another confirmatin for me is that I never sought to be a teacher, and I never ask to be one. I have always been ask to teach

The world here is the "kosmos".....what is meant by the word "cosmopolitan"?

One definition is...."familiar with and at ease in many different countries and cultures." or

1. "(of a plant or animal) found all over the world."

It doesn't mean the "planet", but the "world" of mankind, descended from Adam. They laid the foundation for the human race, making it necessary for God to send his son into the world to redeem them. Unless Adam sinned, no redemption would have been necessary.

IMO the Bible translators are experts in the language and they determined "world" was the best meaning. However it does not change what the verse teaches---we were chosen before we were born.

I do not dispute the eternal nature of salvation. I am saying that heaven was not where God ever intended humans to live.

I agree. IMO the world today would be like it is but without sin, death, sorrow, tornadoes, etc.. It would still be a paradise where we could walk and talk with God.

The ones chosen to rule with Christ in his kingdom are specially chosen by him to serve mankind in the capacity of 'kings and priests'. (Revelation 20:6) These are resurrected "first" to assume their heavenly role...but they are to rule over earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:2-4) These are the ones who must be "born again".....raised in a spiritual body so that they can dwell in the presence of God and his Lamb, and given immortality.

I basically agree with the ruling part but we must be born again to enter God's kingdom(Jn 3:5).

We see this through very different lenses. Immortality can only be gifted to spirit creatures. Physical fleshly beings cannot exist in the spirit realm. Those "dead in Christ" are "raised first" in order to establish the kingdom in heaven in preparation for the "new earth" and its inhabitants. (2 Peter 3:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

The dead in Christ rising first is only at the rapture of believers at the end of the age. Do JW's believe in the rapture?

What do you understand the "the day of Jesus Christ" to be? What purpose does it serve? If those who died without being pre-destined for life, what was the purpose of their existence? Not all who call themselves "Christians" will pass muster. (Matthew 7:21-23)

IMO the "day of Jesus Christ" refers to what happens when the 7th trumpet of Revelation is blown---the kingdom of the world had become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ and He shall reign forever and ever.

IMO, and this goes against my Presbyterian theology, everyone has a chance. but I can't explain it from Scripture. Rev 8:9 says there will be more people in heaven than can be counted and some of them will be from all tribes, people and tongues.

Jesus is the one who "perfects our faith"...no doubt about that...but we must choose to obey his teachings and fight the sin that is in our flesh. (Romans 7:21-25)

Anyone who is born again will automatically chose to be obedient/ Rom 7:18 says the "willing" is present bu the "doing" is not. Therefor we must keep the Law spiritually, because the law is spiritual(Rom 7:14); we must agree with the law in the inner man(where the heart is)Rom 7:22. "With our mind we serve the law(Rom 7:25). Rom 7 is one of the greatest chapters in the Bible, IMO

Prov 3:1 tell us not to forget God teachings but let our heart keep his commandments. because that is where God looks for our compliance(I sam 16:7).

1 John 2:17 ..."the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever."
Jesus said "But the one who has endured to the end will be saved". These verses do not allude to salvation with no way to lose it. We have to be 'doing the will of God' which requires endurance in faithfulness on our part.

Phil 1:6 and Heb 12:2 guarantee Christians will persevere. WE are like Peter when Jesus ask the apostles who they say He is---Peter says "Lord to whoshasll we go, you have the wqors of eternal life(Jn 6:68(.

Once a Christian is anoited with God's spirit, he/she has a token granting them eternal life. If there was no way to lose their salvation, then they could sin every day in the wrost way without fear of losing their place.

They could but anyone born again will not even want to. Actually Christians do sin every day.

Paul wrote at Phillipians 3:12-16
" It’s not that I have already reached this goal or have already become perfect. But I keep pursuing it, hoping somehow to embrace it just as I have been embraced by the Messiah Jesus. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself to have embraced it yet. But this one thing I do: Forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I keep pursuing the goal to win the prize of God’s heavenly call in the Messiah Jesus.
15 Therefore, those of us who are mature should think this way. And if you think differently about anything, God will show you how to think.16 However, we should live up to what we have achieved so far."

Paul is admitting he is still a sinner, thus not literally perfect. All Christians have been sanctified by God (Heb 10:10), this has made us spiritually perfect(Heb 10:14).

Salvation is not achieved until the course is completed..."faithful unto death", these ones receive "the crown of life".

Not according to Eph 2:8: By grace you have been saved, past tense.

I have to disagree. We can't choose to be spiritual but we can choose to be obedient.

All born again Christians have chose to be obedient, but that does not mean we can be. That is what Romans 7 is all about---the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

He will not lose the faithful ones that is true. But there are those who will stumble....Matthew 18:2-6.

All Christians stumble. Salvation, getting it and keeping it, doe snot depend on what we do or don't do, It depends on what we believe.

Yes I agree, but the partaking of the bread and wine were for those taken into the new covenant. Not all are parties to that covenant since it was reserved for Christ's disciples. Men and women of pre-Christian times were not parties to that covenant, but like many other Christians, they will be beneficiaries of it.....having the best world government possible in the resurrection.

The new covenant is future.

If you have your mental faculties, which at 85 I see yours are as sharp as a tack, and using your computer like a pro.....aging takes place in the body and the mind might slow down, but inside I am as young as I was when I was a girl. I am now in my late sixties and feeling my age. Its hard to see this old version of yourself and remember what you used to look like....only old on the outside. I am looking forward to life in the new earth as one of its inhabitants....restored to youth and perfect health.
It is what God intended at the beginning.....and what Christ's death will get back for us.

Thanks, but I am not as sharp as I was even 5 years ago. I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday.

God's capacity for forgiveness is enormous....but only if there is genuine repentance.

Not repentance, we did that when we were save. Genuine confession is what we need now to be forgiven(I Jn 1:9)

God's grace is not a licence to sin.

I do understand but I don't see it the way you do.

Do you really not understand "free gift?"

Thank you for your effort. I am very impressed by your articulate presentation at your age and look forward to speaking with you again soon.

I always enjoy discussing the Bible. I hope some of what I say has been helpful.

 

[Muffled]

I no nothing about the Society of Friends.

Perhaps you know them better as Quakers.

 

[Muffled]

Deeje said "If God had wanted people in heaven, why not put them there in the first place, like he did the angels?"

I don't remember any Bible verse that says angels are in Heaven. I could believe heaven easily enough.

 

[omega2xx]

Perhaps you know them better as Quakers.

I knew they are Quakers, but I no nothing of their theology.

 

[Muffled]

I knew they are Quakers, but I no nothing of their theology.

I believe basically the main belief is that the Holy Spirit works through believers, so worship should center around that. The idea is to wait for someone to receive from the Holy Spirit and say something. There is generally no singing unless it comes from the Spirit and no preaching and therefore no preacher. Also there tends to be a lack of ordinances since those tend to come more from institutionalized worship than Spirit worship.

 

[whirlingmerc]

I realize answers may vary greatly, but in your church, how much time is spent teaching the congregation how one is saved, breaking the scriptures down and giving a full lesson? Is this topic largley left alone because it's so simple and "understood", or does your leadership treat this topic as something they really want their congregations to understand well? This is not a thread on how one gets saved. I want to understand how different evangelical leaderships handle teaching this topic.

Thank you.

I think reformed believers tend to be a bit thoughtful and tend to have a bit more clarity. I think they generally want people to combine right thinking and right feeling, loving truth and acting on it. I think assuming people understand is a mistake on several levels. Not the least problem being that works oriented salvation tends to 'grow back' and reminders to walk in grace just as you received it are needed.

I don't think the subject should be left alone in Col 1:5,6 Paul said their fruitfulness went back to the day they understood the grace of God in truth.

 

[Raj V]

Thank you.
The inquiry is because it has been my limited experience that evangelical churches do not really "teach" this. It is instead presented as a foregone conclusion that this is how it is, which is very powerful in getting people to accept it without understanding why? I was at an evangelical service in 2011 where the pastor preached on giving to the poor and then with no segway, invited people to be saved according to their belief system. My cousin is my most salient example. At her altar call, she told me she met with a counselor who did Not explain to her the scriptural basis of what she was about to do, and they hadn't explained it to her since. I would like to see how much or how little this is the norm.

I realize answers may vary greatly, but in your church, how much time is spent teaching the congregation how one is saved, breaking the scriptures down and giving a full lesson? Is this topic largley left alone because it's so simple and "understood", or does your leadership treat this topic as something they really want their congregations to understand well? This is not a thread on how one gets saved. I want to understand how different evangelical leaderships handle teaching this topic.

Thank you.

Salvation comes only through Repentance. One has to understand what is Sin, Works/Walk to understand Repentance completely. The so called Christians are idiots and their leaders pharisees.