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Featured Question for Jews: Please explain Psalms 45:6-8

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by TrueBeliever37, Aug 18, 2018.

  1. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    In my Hebrew Interlinear Psalms 45:6-8 is translated like this:

    Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever: a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.

    In the Jewish view, who is this that is being called God (elohim) , yet is anointed with the oil of joy by God (elohim)?
     
  2. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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  3. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Your link has the words "given of" included in the English translation for verse 7, which is not actually in the Hebrew.
     
  4. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    . . . Would you be so so callused as to ask Hitler, knowing what he surely knows now, to enumerate the virtues of Judaism? As though his answer carried any modicum of truth or grace concerning something his actions and ideologies show he at one time was completely ignorant of? And which, were he now redeemed concerning his ideology and action, would heap great pans of fire upon his wounded head.

    We should love our enemies, and do right by those who hate us. We shouldn't torture them, even if they now know the error of their ways, if they now know the fundamental difference between opposing Hitler and opposing Christ.

    Your question requires the complete elimination of all the points and addendum added to the Hebrew text by the Masoretes whose pointed interpretation of the text is the spirit of Jesus' sacerdotal interlocutors. Which is to say you would need a wholesale cleansing of the Hebrew text in order to see the Light that shines forth from Psalm chapter 45 after the Masoretic lampshade has been removed.

    Asking a practicing Jew to remove the Masoretic points that nail down their wrongheaded interpretation of the sacred consonants is like asking a practicing Jew to pull the nails out of the cross and tell us what He whispers in their ear.

    I've pulled the nails, and heard the whisper of Psalm 45. Unfortunately I can't be bothered repeating it to persons who wouldn't know the difference between the spirit of Psalm 45 and the spirit they prefer over Bible study, or during Bible study, the spirit found flowing abundantly from an ithyphallic can of Colt 45.



    John
     
    #4 John D. Brey, Aug 18, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
  5. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    From Robert Alter's The Book of Psalms: A Translation with Commentary ...

    Gird your sword on your thigh. O warrior,

    your glory and your granduer.​

    And in your grandeur pass onward,

    mount on a word of truth, humility and justice.​

    and let your right hand shoot forth terrors,​

    your sharpened arrows --

    peoples fall beneath you --​

    into the heart of the kings enemies.​

    Your throne of God is forevermore.

    A scepter of right, your kingship's scepter.​

    You loved justice and hated evil.

    Therefore did God your God anoint you​

    with oil of joy over your fellows.​

    Note:

    Your throne of God. Some construe the Hebrew here to mean "Your throne, O God," but it would be anomalous to have an address to God in the middle of the poem because the entire psalm is directed to the king or to his bride. Others emend the text to keep the throne unambiguously royal

    God your God. As elsewhere, this odd phrasing is the result of an editorial substitution of 'elohim 'elohekha for YHWH 'elohekha​
     
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  6. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Jayhawker.

    What part of the actual Hebrew would allow "of" to be included in the phrase Your throne of God? Is this implying there is a construct relationship involved here?

    Why would anyone feel it was ok to replace God's name with elohim in the scriptures?
     
  7. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Why would you feel otherwise?
     
  8. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Because I don't think it is ok to intentionally change God's word.

    Please provide an answer to the first question I asked in post #6, about what it is in the Hebrew that allows "of" to be a possibility to be used.
     
  9. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    The subject being addressed is not God, but a leader (lam'natze'ach). That leader is anointed by God, his God. Commentators point to either Solomon (as the Malbim writes, ויכול להיות שנתיסד בימי שלמה) or the ultimate future messianic king (as the Radak writes, וזה המזמור נאמר על המלך המשיח).
     
  10. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    OK.

    I did.

    Again: if Alter is to be believed:
    • the context argues for it, and
    • the text in no way precludes it.
     
  11. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    If it was the messianic king, doesn't it still mean he will be sitting on God's throne? Wouldn't the throne of God, mean in the Hebrew that the throne is God's throne? I mean wouldn't it be in the construct state indicating the throne is literally God's throne?
     
    #11 TrueBeliever37, Sep 1, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2018
  12. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    The Ibn Ezra answers this by explaining two possible readings:

    1. Your throne, established as eternal by God,

    2. The throne God put you on (alternatively," "God's seat" which you occupy" with "God's seat" being a construct analogous to the phrase in Chron 1 29:23, meaning that the position of King is divinely ordained and the king acts as channel to the divine).

    Neither is literally a chair that God sits on.
     
  13. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    According my Tenakh, Psalms 45:6-8 is:
    6 Thine arrows are sharp--the peoples fall under thee--[they sink] into the heart of the king's enemies.
    7 Thy throne given of God is for ever and ever; a sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
    8 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness;
    therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    The entire Psalm is about King David. He is not being called God. Your particular translation is in error. Aren't you using the King James version? If you are, it is perhaps the most inferior translations around. It uses as its sources not just the Hebrew Masoretic text, but also the Greek Septuagint, which is flawed, and the Latin Vulgate, which is another translation of a translation. It's like making a copy of a copy of a copy. You end up with a pretty inferior copy. With each subsequent translation, you lose more of the meaning.

    The translation I gave you is directly from the Hebrew. Exactly one translation. You don't get better than that.
     
    #13 IndigoChild5559, Sep 7, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
  14. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    The word "given" in verse 7 is not in the Hebrew text. I wasn't using the KJV at the time, I was looking at an interlinear, which has the Hebrew.
     
  15. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Look it's a psalm about David. David is not God. Your interpretation makes no sense. There are far, far too many other ways to translate the psalm which don't make out David to be God. For example כִּסְאֲךָ אֱלֹהִים עוֹלָם וָעֶד can be read "God is your throne forever and ever." Another way to look at it is that Elohim can at times simply mean lord, which is what Rashi suggests. Thus it could read, Your throne, O lord....
     
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  16. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Oy vey! We're the chosen people and we can't even get a language that includes a comma. :(
     
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  17. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    How do you know it is about David? It was already suggested in a previous post that it could be Solomon, or the ultimate future messianic king. So it could be talking about the Messiah, which is what I believe.

    If it is David, and his throne is forever, where is the throne now and who is on it?

    God is your throne forever and ever makes no sense. No one is sitting on God.
     
  18. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    It is a common theme in the Tanakh that David's throne is forever. Thus we know the song is about David.

    In the Messianic Age to come, the Messiah will sit on the throne of David, thus the Davidic throne is not a thing of the past, if you are the sort to take the sacred texts literally.

    If you are making the argument that in order for there to be an everlasting Davidic throne there must always be a Davidic King at all times, let me remind you that there was no Davidic King during the Babylonian Captivity, even the way Christians tell it.
     
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  19. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    The point I am making would be that the Messiah - of the lineage of David was raised up to sit on the throne, and it would be forever.
    So for me there is no conflict if there was not a King during the Babylonian Captivity.

    In Ezekiel 21:25-27 , the diadem and the crown were removed. God said he would overturn, overturn, overturn it until he come whose right it is, and then he would give it to him.

    (The majority of Christianity believes in a trinity, which I don't.) So the way I believe things is different from trinitarians. For me the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, not another person. Otherwise you would have multiple Gods. I also believe the Messiah's name is YHWSH and not Jesus. I also believe the NT was written in Aramaic, and not Greek.
     
  20. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    It is completely unecessary to propose a Messianic explanation for the Psalm. It works just fine with the David explanation, and it's much simpler.

    BTW there is no evidence at all that the Christian scriptures were written in Aramaic.
     
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