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Question for Christians

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by godlikemadman, Mar 4, 2011.

  1. Beta

    Beta Well-Known Member

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    You keep mentioning Judaism as if they correctly observed God's law - they didn't as Jesus points out in Mat.23 (and many other scripts). So why would Jesus then want to stick to Judaism ???
    Jesus gives us the correct ways to keep God's law and because it had not been taught and practiced it is seen as NEW, or new interpretation as you call it. But it would NOT BE JUDAISM with the exception of the sabbath day which belongs to God anyway.
    As seen from Luk.6v46 neither do christians keep God's law correctly and when Christ returns he will introduce God's law correctly and be seen as ' a new and living way'. God's law will then be kept and practiced.
     
  2. Beta

    Beta Well-Known Member

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    You really think your own belief is more important than God's Will for you ?
    This might well be the case if a person were ignorant of God's Will and had to rely on themselves. But since we all read the Word of God in whatever language available we can not really claim ignorance of it , can we ?
    At the end of the days we will be judged according to the book of life which is the Word of God - not according to our own thinking Rev.20v12. We can not claim ignorance since scripture tells us plainly not to lean (depend) on our own understanding Prov.3v5.
    God's Will is not a detail to be ignored.:)
     
  3. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    This is where we diverge. By what i read , it is written the Jews were behaving wrongly. It was not the Judaism fault.

    It is pretty much the same religion , just some new interpretations.
    I don't think he ever had the intention of getting separated from the Judaism.
    He wanted to tell people how to properly read the scriptures, and to what should be given more importance. In other words, i believe he wanted to set things straight for Jews. IMO, for him, the people weren't being able to understand between the lines, the implied content.

    I have already said it.
    You are confusing religion, which is a set of beliefs, practices and teachings, with the practioners/believers. They are not the same. You believe the latter defines the former, and such is not the case.

    If the practioners do not follow their religion correctly you have to put the blame on them, not on the religion.
     
    #103 Koldo, Mar 7, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2011
  4. Kathryn

    Kathryn Most Spoiled Woman Ever

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    Off topic a bit, but where does the Bible say this? It says call no man your father except your natural father? Where?
     
  5. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    This is a bit of a moot question for me since I no longer follow a sect but follow Jesus. However having been brought up an American Baptist, I still have an affinity for it.

    First it has an egalitarian polity as oposed to an authoritarian polity. This is consistent with having Jesus as Lord and none other with permission to fill that role in His stead.

    Second it recognizes individual responsibility to grow in Christ ie that the church does not have the right to say that Jesus is leading a person in the wrong direction.

    So far these attributes are shared with the Congregational Church but the separation comes over Baptism.

    The Baptist church recognizes two ordinances: Comunion and baptism. Baptism is considered to be believers baptism and as such does not include the baptism of children.

    It would be good to point out here that Jesus did not mandate a religion so it leaves the door open for do-it-yourself religion and a multitude of religions.

    As for the division over homosexuality, I believe that an acceptance of sin is anti-thetical to Christianity and as such could not have come from Jesus and therefore the church does have to act to correct such a view or expel those adherents. being free in Jesus does not give anyone license to become an anti-christ.
     
  6. Beta

    Beta Well-Known Member

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    Mat.23v9 this obviously refers to a religious title and the catholics have conferred on their priests. Spiritually speaking only God is our Father.
    It is also obvious that a natural parent can be called father.
     
  7. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    Catholics are not the only ones to call their priests Father.
    Though what you should call women Priests is an open question. As mother usually refers to superior Nuns.
     
  8. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    It's questions like this that make me feel like it's really a waste of our time talking to one another, Beta. What do you think?
     
    #108 Katzpur, Mar 7, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2011
  9. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    Conversation between God and Beta , after Beta's death:

    Beta: Oh LORD, i have obeyed all YOUR laws according to YOUR will.
    God: Huh?! MY will? MY laws? What are you talking about? I have never given you any orders.
    Beta: LORD! The scriptures!
    God: Oh! That was for the jews only, at a very long time ago, why did you pay attention to that?
    Beta: :cover:
     
  10. esmith

    esmith Veteran Member

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    Well it seems that this thread has wondered all over the place so I will not feel too bad if I inject something else.
    I am sure by now that having read my contributions to this thread that I do not believe in Jesus as portrayed in the NT. However, I do believe in the God of (since this deals with Christianity I will use the Christian terms) the OT. Now, I am not Jewish and really don't know what sect I do ascribe to.

    I have read the posts that basically say you must believe in Jesus and follow his teaching to have a "right standing" with God. Now from what I have read in the NT, Jesus is basically teaching the "moral" laws of the Old Testament, somewhat liberalized though in my opinion. I do not think it is possible to completely follow the moral laws prescribed in the OT nor the teaching of Jesus.

    it seems to me that if you attempt to follow God's moral laws He will "forgive" you. Now, I see God as the God of all mankind and we are His. Why should he condemn you if you call him by a different name or belief, even if you do not believe in Him you are still His. He knows that we are not perfect, we have reasoning power which He gave us and would expect us question things that can not be proven. If He did not want us to "think" he would not have given us the brain power to do so. IMO

    I guess the point I am trying to make is this: If you want to believe in Jesus that is your decision and God accepts that. If you do not believe in Jesus, again that is your personal decision and God will accept it. If you believe in other (for lack of a better word) deities then as before it is your option. Same goes for those that believe in no "supreme" being. I see it as if you are trying your best to follow what was put forth in the OT (moral) you as a human still have a favorable standing in God's "eye".
     
  11. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    There are definite signs identifying the church Christ launched in the first century. You could eliminate around 95% of Christian denominations right off the top with the Sabbath command alone. The other 5% can be qualified by taking notice which group observes the other laws mainstream Christianity says no longer apply.
     
  12. opuntia

    opuntia Religion is Law

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    To say that any one religion that exists today in Catholicism or Protestantism is the real Church Jesus established would be in error.

    When Jesus established his Church, he ordained 12 men (apostles) to head the Church in his absence (Luke 6:13; John 15:16). Do you see them in action today (that is, apostles)? It is true that the Catholic Church superseded that original Church, but I say overcome and established itself as a false authority, having no power and grace. That original Church disappeared centuries ago and what we have today are just fragments of the original Church, all trying to teach certain aspects of that true Church. Until you find a Church that teaches ALL of Jesus' teachings, you will only see shards of glass.
     
  13. Beta

    Beta Well-Known Member

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    The true Church is not going to be seen until it appears as the resurrected Bride of Christ with him at his return. :yes:
     
  14. esmith

    esmith Veteran Member

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    The why would you want that? From what I understand from Christians is that the second coming is "the-end-of-time"......remove all life---reset---try again.
     
  15. Beta

    Beta Well-Known Member

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    The second coming takes place at the end of this age...when time has run out for human 'self-rule'. God allowed man 6 days in which to labour and do all our own work before HE takes over on this earth.Ex.20v9,10. Rev.19v11....Mat.25v31....
     
    #115 Beta, Mar 7, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2011
  16. esmith

    esmith Veteran Member

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    I do believe you have interpreted Exodus 20:9-10 wrong. There is no reference in Exodus or any where in the OT that has God "taking over" the earth. Are you attempting to read into the scriptures that what is not there? I do believe that Jesus was apoplectic in his beliefs and those were carried on to the letters and teachings of Paul. From what I read, Jesus expected that the "end-of-time" would come within his lifetime or very shortly. Paul also understood that this was to happen within a very short period of time.
     
  17. Kathryn

    Kathryn Most Spoiled Woman Ever

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    In other words, the bible doesn't really say "Don't call anyone but your natural father father."

    Just clarifying.
     
  18. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    That is not it. Beta is saying the catholic church is wrong.

    [Matthew 23:9

    "And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."]

    This is very specific.
     
  19. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    To make myself clear : The context of Matthew 23 is about the teachers of the law and Pharisees. So Jesus is speaking surely about the religious conotation of the word "father", and forbiding its use except to refer to God. You are not to think of any religious figure as a father.
     
    #119 Koldo, Mar 7, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2011
  20. esmith

    esmith Veteran Member

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    Matt 23:8-10 is a warning not to seek titles of honor just to foster pride.
    If you read this passage literally you are not to call you maternal "Father" Father. If this is what you think your Jesus meant then why does the NT make many to so many so many references to "father".....honor your father and mother Matt 19:19. The Old Testament has many references to "father"

    Various meaning of fathers
    Creator Jas 1:17
    Source of originator Ge 4:20-21
    Caretaker Job 29:16
    A respected prophet 2Ki 6:21
    A respected priest Jdg 17:10

    In addition there are Spiritual use of father
    Abraham as the father of believers Ro 4:11,16-17
    Paul as father of his churches 1Co4:15 1Th2:11-12
    the devil as father of the ungodly Jn8:44 1Jn3:10-12

    So, as you can see the Catholic church is not wrong for calling the priest "Father". I think one should be very careful when making statements.
     
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