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Featured Question for Christians: Salvation for uncontacted tribes?

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Xavier Graham SA, Sep 22, 2021.

  1. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Well-Known Member

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    Nope. Similar with Baha'is. If a person never hears about Baha'i, it's as if Baha'u'llah never came. It's illogical when you think about it to hold someone to account for not listening to someone they never heard of. Also, many have merely heard the name Baha'i or Baha'u'llah but nothing about it, it's not as scot-free as never hearing of Baha'i, as they really should investigate what that is, but in my opinion there is leniency for that, too. Baha'u'llah said:

    Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turneth away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.
    (Bahá’í Prayers)
    www.bahai.org/r/590584594

    What does it mean to turn away from Baha'u'llah? I think you probably have to know Him first before you turn way from Him.
     
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  2. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Of course they have….
    Romans 6:7,
    Weymouth New Testament
    “for he who has paid the penalty of death stands absolved from his sin.”
    Sometimes it’s necessary to use more than 1 Scripture to support one’s beliefs; this is Especially true when describing ‘soul’ & ‘death’. We know all Scripture agrees, so it’s imperative when trying to understand 1 verse, we consider it in the light of all the others that relate to the subject. In this case, Scriptures to harmonize w/ Matthew 10:28 is Ezekiel 18:4, Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 146:3-4, and numerous others. Believing the soul ‘is alive’ after death, conflicts with these…. Plus, it disregards the Biblical teaching of the Resurrection. (If something is alive, it can’t be resurrected. Where was Lazarus before Christ resurrected him, then?)
    Full death? (As opposed to, what? Half death? Just kidding.)

    I think the term that better suits this, is eternal death. That is called the “Lake of Fire” (aka “Gehenna”). From which there’s no hope of a resurrection, no coming back.

    The Fire, here (Revelation 20:13-14, “death…[was] cast into the L of F”), is symbolic…. death cannot be literally burned; but it will be “no more.” (Revelation 21:3-4) Once death due to sin is removed, humans will be able to enjoy life forever, as sons and daughters of Jehovah God!

    If you really think the wicked person who died is actually alive somewhere, going through torment

    This understanding reveals a redundancy on God’s part: some will be resurrected, just to be judged unworthy , and then killed again? That would make no sense. Why would God waste the time and energy? No, the resurrected unrighteous will be judged on their actions after their resurrection! This makes Romans 6:7, sensible.
     
  3. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Is that scriptural?
     
  4. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Depends whom you ask but no.
     
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  5. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    God will judge each soul according to its individual knowledge and circumstances. After all, the righteous who died before Christ came didn't go to hell. They awaited Him in the Bosom of Abraham.
     
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  6. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    That's the way I understand it from various scriptures. Others have a different opinion.

    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books.

    Matt 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
    34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

    Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he did not see death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

    John 5:24 Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.
     
  7. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    In context Romans 6:7 means that our body is ruled by sin and after we die and are freed from this body we no longer sin.
    (going further the spiritual body we are raised in is a body that is able to be controlled by our spirit, and hence it is called a spiritual body)
    Romans 6:5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

    Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
    This use of soul might just mean person. If it does mean the spirit soul in a person then there is no problem, it shall die for sin also.
    Eccles 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    This does not say that there is no soul that lives after death.
    Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
    4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
    This does not say that the dead cannot think, it is about their thoughts in life,,,,,,,,,and is better translated as "his plans perish", as many translations do.
    So you look at scriptures where you imagine it says the soul goes out of existence at death (when they do not say this) and ignore the scriptures where it shows that the soul lives on after the death of the body.
    ( Rev 6:9-11, Matt 10:28, 1Kings 17:21, Samuel coming back from sheol etc)

    As Luke 16 shows, some are comforted and some are in discomfort.
    There is punishment for sin apart from going out of existence. It does not say how long it takes for a soul to be destroyed in gehenna.
    Rev 14:11And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

    Where do the scriptures say that the resurrected unrighteous will do anything after being resurrected except be judged? Nowhere. It is probably not a good idea to make stuff up so that you can justify a scripture (Romans 6:7) that does not even mean what you say it means in the first place.
    Best to stick with what the scriptures tell us.
    Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
     
  8. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Okay. Thank you.
     
  9. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    There are also verses which show that not all who call themselves Christians will be classed that way. eg
    Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
     
  10. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Well-Known Member

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    Mormons believe that Jesus (or perhaps Christ after Jesus died) visited the Americas. They also claim that Europeans were the first settlers of America. There is some evidence about this (Solutrean Hypothesis).

    According to the Solutrean Hypothesis, digging under a Clovis site, pre-Clovis arrowheads were found. Disproving the Solutrean Hypothesis, Clovis bones turned out to be related to modern Native Americans (who came across the Bering Strait, after staying there for thousands of years while their DNA changed). But the assertion was about the pre-Clovis Native Americans, not the Clovis Native Americans. So, the experts, having changed the question, got the wrong answer.

    The Solutrean Hypothesis says that pre-Clovis arrowheads of Virginia (USA) are similar to Solutrean arrowheads of Europe. Some Native Americans are livid that someone is trying to prove that they are not the first people who discovered America and assert that Whites want Whites to have discovered it first. Yet, the Solutrean civilization, though in Europe, was Black (not White). Furthermore, the Solutrean Hypothesis is about science, not bigotry. An expert in Solutrean arrowheads said that there are 18 details that are identical to the pre-Clovis arrowheads.

    It would seem odd for God to send his son to only one small region of the world, and not share knowledge of his existence to all civilizations of the world.
     
  11. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Well-Known Member

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    Well said.
     
  12. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Well-Known Member

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    On a trip from Los Angeles to New York, would you have to first see New York in order to turn away from it? Perhaps, falling off of the path of God (not following the teachings of Jesus) is considered "turning away." Even if you didn't know the teachings, if you violate God's wishes, you might not get into heaven. But doesn't it seem odd that God would punish someone for not knowing what He (God) wants?
     
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  13. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Well-Known Member

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    Big bra?
     
  14. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    No. The person is a soul (Genesis 2:7….”and the man (Adam) came to be a living soul.”); a person doesn’t have one, he / she is one.

    Christendom teaches there is life immediately following death, and for the wicked it’s punishment. That would make life, for them, a punishment. Life is never a punishment….life is “a gift” from God (Romans 6:23); death is the punishment.
    When Psalms 115:17 says “ The dead do not praise the Lord”, what do you think that means?
    Human death, is no different than animal death. (Ecclesiastes 3:19) This agrees with what Jehovah God told Adam about the consequences of eating from the tree: God said, “you will die.” And nothing more! (Having seen the animals die, they understood what He meant.) God didn’t say, ‘if you die, you’re going to live in another realm and be tortured (or something else)’…. Nothing!
    But later, after Adam chose to rebel, what did God tell him? Genesis 3:19, “YOU will return to the ground…. To dust YOU will return.

    God didn’t tell Adam, “your body”…. God told Adam, “You will return…” Just.Like.The.Animals.

    That’s why the promise of the future Resurrection (John 5:28-29; John 6:40) is so precious for humans, & one of the most muddied-up teachings influenced by the Deceiver, which he combined w/ Greek Platonism (philosophy).
     
    #34 Hockeycowboy, Sep 25, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2021
  15. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

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    Part of Christianity’s appeal is that salvation is open to all, and the doorway to heaven is wide (though not to a rich man); esoteric wisdom, a life of rectitude and devotion, multiple incarnations - none of these are demanded of the believer in Christ. Faith is the only absolute requirement for redemption, and if we have that then all our sins and weaknesses are forgiven. Thus Jesus was able to say to one of the robbers with him on the cross,
    “Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise.” - Luke 23:43

    Troubling however, for those of us who don’t consider Christianity, or any other faith, to have a monopoly on truth, is the verse,
    “I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me.” - John 14:6

    It’s my personal belief that there are many paths to enlightenment and redemption, but this verse from John appears to say otherwise, and I’m not entirely sure how to resolve it. It needs to be read and considered in context though; Bible verses are very quotable, but there are dangers in placing too much emphasis on particular ones.
     
  16. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    That's one verse but we both know that "soul" has more than one meaning and that the WT does not accept them all and that other verses in the Bible show the other meanings.

    If you say there is never punishment then you are denying that the smoke of their torment goes up forever because you say there was no torment.
    The wages of sin is death and the gift of God is eternal life. Punishment it seems could be something other than death.
    Psalm 115:17 is about people praising God as in the Temple. The word for "praise" is a word that is used for that sort of praise.

    Yes Ecclesiastes tells us what Solomon could see. Both animals and man die. He then says that we have no advantage over the animals and that everything is meaningless. Ecclesiastes needs to be thought about not just quoted.
    But notice that Solomon says that both humans and animals die but does not say that the spirit of animals goes to God or anything about the experience of animals after they die, but does say stuff about what humans experience after death. Humans and animals die but the type of death is quite different imo.
    JWs like to quote Gen 3:19 about returning to the dust but ignore the fact that humans are both dust and spirit. The breathe of life is spirit. That is the part that lives on after the body dies. We do die bodily and as full humans but we have at that stage not died completely, that comes later, after the judgement (for the deeds we have done in life).
    God said "You will die....." but when we sinned God said other things also. We will work hard and suffer as well before dying and later on we find out other things also, that we have a spirit that survives the death of the body and is more than just a spark of life because if knows our mind (just as the Spirit of God knows the mind of God--1Cor 2:11
    Without that spirit part we would have to be recreated a copy of ourselves and the thing created would not be us.
     
  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Because Gehenna is Not burning today I find shows No forever burning implied.
    What was thrown into fiery Gehenna (garbage pit) was destroyed forever. Never kept burning past destruction.
    Something incinerated returns to ashes, and does Not keep-on burning forever.
    Because Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; 2 Peter 3:9 teaches 'forever destruction' then Gehenna is a fitting word for: destruction.
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    In the original I find there was No comma (,) after the word 'thee' at Luke 23:43
    Jesus did Not go to paradise or heaven the day Jesus died. Jesus went to hell/grave that day - Acts 2:27.
    So, there is No way Jesus offered heaven or paradise the day that the robber died.
    Rather, "Verily (truly) I say unto thee today(,) shalt thou be with me in paradise ." ( future tense )
    Truly the comma (,) belongs after the word: today.
    No one who died before Jesus died was offered heaven - John 3:13
    Even King David did Not ascend to Heaven - Acts of the Apostles 2:34
    None of the faithful of Hebrews chapter 11 were offered Heaven - Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:39
    Jesus opened up the way to Heaven for people like those of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18; Revelation 2:10
    The majority of people, Jesus promised that humble meek people will inherit the Earth - Psalms 37:9-11.

    Yes, there is danger in placing too much emphasis just on one particular verse:
    John 14:6 - Jesus is the way - corresponds to John 10:9; Ephesians 2:18
    John 14:6 - Jesus is the truth - corresponds to John 1:14; John 1:17; Ephesians 4:21
    John 14:6 - Jesus is the life - corresponds to John 1:4; John 17:3; Romans 6:23
    John 14:6 - except through Jesus - corresponds to Acts of the Apostles 4:12
     
  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find Matthew 25:31-33 to be scriptural. At Jesus' coming Glory Time of separation taking place on Earth, King Jesus judges between the figurative humble ' sheep ' and the haughty ' goats '.
    They are judged on the basis of how they have treated Jesus spiritual ' brothers' of Matthew 25:40.
    The sheep have a favorable judgement - Matthew 25:37, the ' goats ' an adverse judgement of destruction.
     
  20. mangalavara

    mangalavara Verified Account ✔
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    When I was a Christian, my view was that people who never hear the gospel are very likely damned. While other Christians might be uncomfortable with that view, my reasoning was (1) salvation comes through faith, and (2) God would be just in sending the uninformed to everlasting torment due to their sins. At the same time, I believed that God could acquit whoever he wants because of his sovereignty. As someone who enjoyed reading the Church Fathers, I liked John of Damascus's reasoning that the reason God created the masses who he knew would end up damned anyway (be they aware or unaware of the gospel) was that if he had responded by not creating them, 'they' would have the victory over him. So, as an unconquerable god, he created them regardless so that he would have the victory over them in the Judgment.
     
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