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Question for Christians on prayer

Raahim

مكتوب
Peace be upon you, I was always wondering this question and I never basically got an answer because no Christian knew how to explain it to me & some didn't even bother to do so. So basically Mary was nothing more than a human, she was not divine she just gave birth to Yeshua ﷺ and that's all. So my question is - If she was human why do you pray to her, make statues of her and paintings? She's human, not worth of any prayers. And question that goes with this is what's up with all the saints and prayers to them? Why do you have a saint for protecting fishermen, saint for firefighters, saint for couples, etc. doesn't that remind you very much to idol worshippers with their idols? They don't have any power, they were humans & why again do you pray to human?

One friend told me that they don't directly pray to the saints or Mary but they (Christians) pray to them (saints) to pray to God for them (Christians)? Why do you Christians have such big urge to have a middle-man between you & God? Don't you feel like relationship with God should only be something between the two of you? Also I'm not sure if this applies to all branches of Christianity, I only know Catholics & Orthodox have this.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
The branch of protestant Christianity I was raised in had no saints to pray to. Just Jesus and God.
 

Raahim

مكتوب
The branch of protestant Christianity I was raised in had no saints to pray to. Just Jesus and God.

Well from point of Christianity it makes perfect sense, but I'm waiting for Catholic or Orthodox to answer me why they pray to humans.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Well from point of Christianity it makes perfect sense, but I'm waiting for Catholic or Orthodox to answer me why they pray to humans.
I was just replying since you wondered if all branches of Christianity have what you called middle men. I'm sort of curious what Christians have to say about this myself. I know protestants are against saints.
 

Raahim

مكتوب
I was just replying since you wondered if all branches of Christianity have what you called middle men. I'm sort of curious what Christians have to say about this myself. I know protestants are against saints.

I know and thanks for the answer. :)
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Not a Catholic, but these are my observations:

I think certain denominations have made God so unreachable that people seek "average folks" for prayer. It's like how polytheistic cultures might have a High God, but pray to regular gods or even nondivine spirits because they're more "local". While protestants aren't much into saints like Catholics are, I still notice that many, especially the megachurch type places, focus so much on the preacher and not God that while the congregation isn't technically praying to the preacher, it's still about handing over the communication to a more local person, someone they can actually talk to.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
Peace be upon you, I was always wondering this question and I never basically got an answer because no Christian knew how to explain it to me & some didn't even bother to do so. So basically Mary was nothing more than a human, she was not divine she just gave birth to Yeshua ﷺ and that's all. So my question is - If she was human why do you pray to her, make statues of her and paintings? She's human, not worth of any prayers. And question that goes with this is what's up with all the saints and prayers to them? Why do you have a saint for protecting fishermen, saint for firefighters, saint for couples, etc. doesn't that remind you very much to idol worshippers with their idols? They don't have any power, they were humans & why again do you pray to human?

One friend told me that they don't directly pray to the saints or Mary but they (Christians) pray to them (saints) to pray to God for them (Christians)? Why do you Christians have such big urge to have a middle-man between you & God? Don't you feel like relationship with God should only be something between the two of you? Also I'm not sure if this applies to all branches of Christianity, I only know Catholics & Orthodox have this.
"Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed"Matthew 26:39

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Don't you feel like relationship with God should only be something between the two of you? Also I'm not sure if this applies to all branches of Christianity, I only know Catholics & Orthodox have this.

The concept of intercession also exists in (some forms of) Islam, albeit in a different way. It doesn't apply to prayer, but on the day of resurrection God has granted Muhammed the right to intercede on behalf of others. If intercession is possible through God's will, you could make the argument that God has also granted the right for saints to intercede on behalf of Christians.


It was narrated that Anas ibn Maalik said: Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us: “When the Day of Resurrection comes, the people will surge with each other like waves. They will come to Adam and say, ‘Intercede for us with your Lord.’ He will say, ‘I am not fit for that. Go to Ibraaheem for he is the Close Friend of the Most Merciful.’ So they will go to Ibraaheem, but he will say, ‘I am not fit for that. Go to Moosa for he is the one to whom Allaah spoke directly.’ So they will go to Moosa but he will say, ‘I am not fit for that. Go to ‘Eesa for he is a soul created by Allaah and His Word.’ So they will go to ‘Eesa but he will say, ‘I am not fit for that. Go to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).’ So they will come to me and I will say, I am fit for that.’ Then I will ask my Lord for permission and He will give me permission, and He will inspire me with words of praise with which I will praise Him, words that I do not know now. So I will praise Him with those words of praise and I will fall down prostrate before Him. He will say, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head. Speak and intercession will be granted to you, ask and you will be given, intercede and your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, my ummah, my ummah!’ He will say, ‘Go and bring forth everyone in whose heart there is faith the weight of a barley-grain.’ So I will go and do that. Then I will come back and praise Him with those words of praise and I will fall down prostrate before Him. He will say, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head. Speak and intercession will be granted to you, ask and you will be given, intercede and your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, my ummah, my ummah!’ He will say, ‘Go and bring forth everyone in whose heart there is faith the weight of a small ant or a mustard-seed.’ So I will go and do that. Then I will come back and praise Him with those words of praise and I will fall down prostrate before Him. He will say, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head. Speak and intercession will be granted to you, ask and you will be given, intercede and your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, my ummah, my ummah!’ He will say, ‘Go and bring forth from the Fire everyone in whose heart there is faith the weight of the lightest, lightest grain of mustard-seed.’ So I will go and bring them forth.”

When we left Anas I [the narrator of the hadeeth] said to some of our companions, “Why don’t we go to al-Hasan, who is hiding in the house of Abu Khaleefah, and tell him what Anas ibn Maalik has told us?” So we went to him, greeted him with salaam and he gave us permission to enter. Then we said, “O Abu Sa’eed, we have come to you from your brother Anas ibn Maalik, and we have never heard anything like what he narrated to us about intercession.” He said, “Tell me.” So we narrated the hadeeth to him and we came to this point and he said, “Keep going.” We said, “He did not tell us any more.” He said, “He told me this hadeeth when he was a young man, twenty years ago. I do not know if he forgot or if he did not want to let you depend on what he might have said. We said, “O Abu Sa’eed, tell us.” He smiled and said, “ Man was created hasty. I only mentioned that because I wanted to inform you of it. Anas told me the same as he told you, and said that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) added: “Then I will come back a fourth time and praise Him with those words of praise and I will fall down prostrate before Him. He will say, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head. Speak and intercession will be granted to you, ask and you will be given, intercede and your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, give me permission (to bring forth) all those who said Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah.’ He will say, ‘By My Might, My Majesty, My Supremacy and My Greatness, I will most certainly bring forth from it those who said Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah.’”
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 7510)
 

Raahim

مكتوب
The concept of intercession also exists in (some forms of) Islam, albeit in a different way. It doesn't apply to prayer, but on the day of resurrection God has granted Muhammed the right to intercede on behalf of others. If intercession is possible through God's will, you could make the argument that God has also granted the right for saints to intercede on behalf of Christians.


It was narrated that Anas ibn Maalik said: Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us: “When the Day of Resurrection comes, the people will surge with each other like waves. They will come to Adam and say, ‘Intercede for us with your Lord.’ He will say, ‘I am not fit for that. Go to Ibraaheem for he is the Close Friend of the Most Merciful.’ So they will go to Ibraaheem, but he will say, ‘I am not fit for that. Go to Moosa for he is the one to whom Allaah spoke directly.’ So they will go to Moosa but he will say, ‘I am not fit for that. Go to ‘Eesa for he is a soul created by Allaah and His Word.’ So they will go to ‘Eesa but he will say, ‘I am not fit for that. Go to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).’ So they will come to me and I will say, I am fit for that.’ Then I will ask my Lord for permission and He will give me permission, and He will inspire me with words of praise with which I will praise Him, words that I do not know now. So I will praise Him with those words of praise and I will fall down prostrate before Him. He will say, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head. Speak and intercession will be granted to you, ask and you will be given, intercede and your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, my ummah, my ummah!’ He will say, ‘Go and bring forth everyone in whose heart there is faith the weight of a barley-grain.’ So I will go and do that. Then I will come back and praise Him with those words of praise and I will fall down prostrate before Him. He will say, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head. Speak and intercession will be granted to you, ask and you will be given, intercede and your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, my ummah, my ummah!’ He will say, ‘Go and bring forth everyone in whose heart there is faith the weight of a small ant or a mustard-seed.’ So I will go and do that. Then I will come back and praise Him with those words of praise and I will fall down prostrate before Him. He will say, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head. Speak and intercession will be granted to you, ask and you will be given, intercede and your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, my ummah, my ummah!’ He will say, ‘Go and bring forth from the Fire everyone in whose heart there is faith the weight of the lightest, lightest grain of mustard-seed.’ So I will go and bring them forth.”

When we left Anas I [the narrator of the hadeeth] said to some of our companions, “Why don’t we go to al-Hasan, who is hiding in the house of Abu Khaleefah, and tell him what Anas ibn Maalik has told us?” So we went to him, greeted him with salaam and he gave us permission to enter. Then we said, “O Abu Sa’eed, we have come to you from your brother Anas ibn Maalik, and we have never heard anything like what he narrated to us about intercession.” He said, “Tell me.” So we narrated the hadeeth to him and we came to this point and he said, “Keep going.” We said, “He did not tell us any more.” He said, “He told me this hadeeth when he was a young man, twenty years ago. I do not know if he forgot or if he did not want to let you depend on what he might have said. We said, “O Abu Sa’eed, tell us.” He smiled and said, “ Man was created hasty. I only mentioned that because I wanted to inform you of it. Anas told me the same as he told you, and said that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) added: “Then I will come back a fourth time and praise Him with those words of praise and I will fall down prostrate before Him. He will say, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head. Speak and intercession will be granted to you, ask and you will be given, intercede and your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, give me permission (to bring forth) all those who said Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah.’ He will say, ‘By My Might, My Majesty, My Supremacy and My Greatness, I will most certainly bring forth from it those who said Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah.’”
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 7510)

Difference is when God grants it & other is when humans decide who gets it. I am aware of this hadith. Thank you for answer.
 
Difference is when God grants it & other is when humans decide who gets it. I am aware of this hadith. Thank you for answer.

Do Christians believe that it is the Saint that grants it though? Don't they also believe that the saint asks God on their behalf, and that ultimately God is the one who decides? If so, what is the difference?
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
The concept of intercession also exists in (some forms of) Islam, albeit in a different way. It doesn't apply to prayer, but on the day of resurrection God has granted Muhammed the right to intercede on behalf of others. If intercession is possible through God's will, you could make the argument that God has also granted the right for saints to intercede on behalf of Christians....

Yep, and the Hebrew also asked dead relatives and special people to intercede for them with God. And that is where the Catholic Church gets it from.

So all of the Abrahamic religions have done this.

*
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
It's really quite simple. This is the Catholic and Orthodox (both of which I used to be) position:
  • Christians believe Jesus is fully God and fully human, a Dual Nature.
  • God took birth as a human, of a human mother.
  • Because Mary willingly chose to bear God as her child, she was accorded special grace by God.
  • She is not divine, but by virtue of giving birth to God (theotokos in Greek), and her sinless life, she was declared Queen of Heaven by the Roman Catholic Church.
  • She is not worshipped, rather, she is venerated as the Mother of God, with special privilege to intercede with God on a person's behalf.
Whether that fits in with a non-Catholic or non-Orthodox person's beliefs is another matter. The fact remains that it's Catholic and Orthodox doctrine.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Peace be upon you, I was always wondering this question and I never basically got an answer because no Christian knew how to explain it to me & some didn't even bother to do so. So basically Mary was nothing more than a human, she was not divine she just gave birth to Yeshua ﷺ and that's all. So my question is - If she was human why do you pray to her, make statues of her and paintings? She's human, not worth of any prayers. And question that goes with this is what's up with all the saints and prayers to them? Why do you have a saint for protecting fishermen, saint for firefighters, saint for couples, etc. doesn't that remind you very much to idol worshippers with their idols? They don't have any power, they were humans & why again do you pray to human?

One friend told me that they don't directly pray to the saints or Mary but they (Christians) pray to them (saints) to pray to God for them (Christians)? Why do you Christians have such big urge to have a middle-man between you & God? Don't you feel like relationship with God should only be something between the two of you? Also I'm not sure if this applies to all branches of Christianity, I only know Catholics & Orthodox have this.

Catholicism is a "family" religion. The communion of saints involves everyone that is part of the Church. Each person prays for each other. Each person reaches out to god so that god helps others. Its a communal denomination.

"Dear god. Can you help John. He just found out he has cancer and needs some comfort. Give him your blessings"

"Dear Mary. I know you have helped people come to know your son. I relate to you as we are both believers. I dont know how to go to god about john. I love him so much. Please ask god to send him blessings to help him heal. Thank you"

Its a relationship between the Catholic and saint that lets him befriend that saint and ask him for help and talk with him.

Its a favor, asking, conversation with the saints.

No Catholic I know (CCC doesnt teach) to worships the saints. They worship the Eucharist.
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
Peace be upon you, I was always wondering this question and I never basically got an answer because no Christian knew how to explain it to me & some didn't even bother to do so. So basically Mary was nothing more than a human, she was not divine she just gave birth to Yeshua ﷺ and that's all. So my question is - If she was human why do you pray to her, make statues of her and paintings? She's human, not worth of any prayers. And question that goes with this is what's up with all the saints and prayers to them? Why do you have a saint for protecting fishermen, saint for firefighters, saint for couples, etc. doesn't that remind you very much to idol worshippers with their idols? They don't have any power, they were humans & why again do you pray to human?

One friend told me that they don't directly pray to the saints or Mary but they (Christians) pray to them (saints) to pray to God for them (Christians)? Why do you Christians have such big urge to have a middle-man between you & God? Don't you feel like relationship with God should only be something between the two of you? Also I'm not sure if this applies to all branches of Christianity, I only know Catholics & Orthodox have this.

That's only in particular branches of Christianity.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
So my question is - If she was human why do you pray to her, make statues of her and paintings?
Because although human, she is the mother of the incarnate God and therefore the highest being in the created order. Still a creature, but a creature so beloved by God that her intersession holds the greatest power among all the saints. On that account owe her our devotion. Her humanity in no way subtracts from that. No more than Christ's humanity makes Him any less wholly God.

And question that goes with this is what's up with all the saints and prayers to them? Why do you have a saint for protecting fishermen, saint for firefighters, saint for couples, etc. doesn't that remind you very much to idol worshippers with their idols? They don't have any power, they were humans & why again do you pray to human?
Asking someone to pray on your behalf is not a claim of their power independent of God. God is the God of the living and the saints are still very much alive and much closer to God than us still on the earth. Who better to take our concerns to God than those who are already in Heaven with Him? Tradition also grants some saints specialities in certain areas, often related to some aspect of their own earthly lives. But nonetheless when we pray to a saint, all we are really asking is the saint to pray our cause before God. God is always acknowledged as the granter of all graces. The saints aren't demi-gods, they have no authority or ability not directly permitted by God. The accusation of idolatry is thus utterly bankrupt. It relies on a very narrow and puritanical notion of 'ideology' that has been repudiated by the Chruch many times. The iconoclast heresy is persistent. The Muslim and Protestant accusations are nothing new.

Why do you Christians have such big urge to have a middle-man between you & God?
God doesn't need anything. He doesn't need His angels, He doesn't need His saints. But His angels and saints nonetheless please Him and it thus pleases Him to involve them in the execution of His will. God's servants don't lounge around just because they're in Heaven.

Muslims and Protestants have such a restricting and rigid notion of God. But we Catholics and Orthodox believe God is so much bigger than that.
 
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