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Question for Christianity

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Jerrell, Oct 7, 2006.

  1. Doktormartini

    Doktormartini 小虎

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    How come Jesus has pretty much the exact same life as some of the saviors of pagan religions that were worshipped long before Jesus (Osiris, Dionysis, Mithra..etc)?
     
  2. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    Because if one factual statement is correct, then all statements which conflict with that statement are incorrcet (it's rather the definition conflict)

    Their neck rots under the stress before their abdomen bursts. Typically, a successful self-hanging results in decapitation, as it's rare for an ameture to successfully manage the line btween "doesn't break the neck" and "takes off the head".

    Though that's not the order of events"
    Now this man [Judas] purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
    Fell, burst, died.

    Someone might see it incorrectly indeed. Someone might also remember it incorrectly. In either case, it would be incorrect.

    If the robe was purple, then the person who said red was wrong.
    If the robe was red, then the person who said purple was wrong.

    You are mostly apologizing for *why* they are wrong; but they are still wrong.
     
  3. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    Does anything conflict with the main focus of the Gospels? Jesus's identidty, death and resurrection?

    Hung, fell, burst, died. His bloated body was decapitated from the noose and fell. Thus the gushing bowels.

    You say toe-may-toe I say toe-mot-toe. Does that mean it's not a tomatoe? Of course not.

    It's a matter of perspective. Neither is wrong.
     
  4. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    That question seems to be around a different assertion, the assertion that there is a consistant core message. My support for the problems there is entirely different from my (rather trivial to establish) support for the claim that the Bible is not entierly factually correct.

    I'm concerned that your change of scope is propping up a straw-man parody of what I actually said.

    Riight. What color was that robe again?

    No it's really not. Purple and red are two different colors. At least one person is wrong. Color is not subjective, it is objective. Shall I point you at some color charts so you can see the objective standards?

    If the robe was red, it could not have been purple as red!=purple, and vice versa.
    If you percieve something objectively red to be purple, your perception is factually wrong.
     
  5. Jerrell

    Jerrell Active Member

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    Ignorance is Bliss. The Authors are not unknown, Luke escribed his name on his Gospel, and the others were found out through the version of the story and the dating of it.

    You say the Gospels were flase...yet and still Roman historians wrote about Jesus in history. Jewish Historians wrote about Jesus and even said that he hung upon the cross...is this all made up too? Why would a Pagan Roman historian write about Jesus if he was all made up?

    Each Gospel Writer presented the Gospel of Christ from His own perspective, wether they were there or not. Some Writers were not there and to fill in the information had to gather it from witnesses, for this reason there are some minor diffrences, Some writers did not feel the need to quote every single things Jesus said, therefore there are some diffrneces, WHAT WOULD BE THE NEED OF FOUR GOSPELS if they all contained the same things? Each presents the same stroy though diffrent eyes, they are not tales, they are biographies.
     
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  6. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    I don't want to hijack Jerell's thread anymore than I already have. We can take this elsewhere if you'd like.
     
  7. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    No, Jerrell, ignorance is ignorance, as your post so clearly demonstrates. Start here.
     
  8. Jerrell

    Jerrell Active Member

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    If you ask a group of people to tell you exactaly what happened on 9/11, all would give you diffrent accounts, THAT IS THE GOOD THING. With diffrent accounts you can get the whole story, peice things together, get a better understanding. Yes the Bible does have Human Perspective, becuase Jesus was seen by HUman Eyes, and Preached by Human Mouths. John wrote his Gospel for one reason, "[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God" John 20:31. The Gospels fit in Harmony and are Gos inspired for have we not been saved by the name of Jesus, which was the goal of the New Testament writers?

    One Shouldn't expect to get the very same story, for the account of Jeus. If that was true all you wouldn need is one Gospel, but no, we have four, why? Becuase Each contains diffrent information not elaborated on by the Other, each was written for a diffrent crowd, that is God's way of explaining things, using diffrent people.
    [/FONT]
     
  9. Jerrell

    Jerrell Active Member

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    Don't presume to be God, or act as if you are, cause you are not. How is naming the authors of a book baseless and worthless. it's like saying that naming Martin Luther King under your quote is baseless and worthless, but is it? No. May Christ have Mercy on our souls.
     
  10. Jerrell

    Jerrell Active Member

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    I don't go off of Random Websites written by people who are taking a guess about the dates, as they did. I study the Bible, and I look at what Theologians say, you should do the same, and don't trust everything you see on the internet.
     
  11. Jerrell

    Jerrell Active Member

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    No proof? It is a fact in the written history books that these men existed. Jesus was recorded by Roman and Jewish Historians, so did they write about the Apostles. John was one of the Disciples who actually lived without being killed. John did not move to llRC(w/e that is) he lived in Ephesus with Mary the Mother of Jesus. Paul did not rule the religion, he was the Apostle to the Gentiles, Paul taught others just as Preachers today teach others. And there is evidence that the Apostles were ridiculed more than mere men, Jesus said Peter would be crucified (John 21:18-19), this is what happened, and every single Apostle including Paul was killed, except John. The Fact that this Gospel exists, is proof enough that the Apostles existed.

    They didn't claim to see anything, they simply wrote about it. Just as any Author of an Encylopedia would, just becuase they didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen. You weren't there for WWII, or maybe not Vietnam, not even the Civil War, did theses happen? Men wrote about them too...

    I dont know where you get your information from, but Jesus can wear a diffrent color robe on diffrent days...and also the Bible states that Judas hung himself, never anything about being evecierated. The Two diffrent Liniages start from Diffrent Places. Matthew gives the genealogies from Jesus to Abraham, and Luke gives it from Jesus to Adam, see the explinations here, http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-genealogy.html . Mark and Luke did not just copy from John and Matthew, God uses diffrent individuals to convey a diffrent message, Each Gospel is unique.

    The Average Life Expectancy for Romans was less than half of 80, although many lived to be much older than that. The Average Life Expectancy for Jews was much higher than that of the Romans, becuase they lived the Kosher diet. John and the other Apostles were being persecuted, searched for, people were trying to kill them. If this was to happen to me i surely wouldn't sit down and write a book about somebody eles's life when mine was in jepordy, until i was safe.

    Paul was there, he was a Pharisee While Jesus was doing his Ministry (Philippians 3:4;7) . Paul also had revelations (revealings of information before unknown), Jesus taught him all that he needed to know on the Damascus Road (Acts 9, 2 Corinthians 12). Paul did not live in Rome, Paul merely travled to Rome and was killed there upon his last visit there, Paul was a Jew and Lived in Judea. The Gospels say that Jesus had a Brother named James, Archeologist discoverd a tomb, and written on it was James, the Brother of Jesus...

    I am sorry to say this, but that statement was stupid. Who said Creationist don't beleive in Geology, Physics, and Biology. Biology states that Life only arises from Life, and Jesus is the Life, and he is the Creator....No we dont believe Roman or Greek myths either, they are myths... and I have no idea what you mean about Aliens taking heaven's Gate, please enlighten me.

    Are you insulting me? The Bible is HIstory, filled with Prophecy, History fortold. So much prophecy has come true, that none can rpoove otherwise. The Illiad is a story, written of a myth, and Fairytale about the ideal of Greek society, Don't dare compare the Bible to it.
     
  12. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Jerrell, I am truly sorry, but you are pathetically and irresponsibly ignorant about the very topic you presume to teach. The opportunity to change that condition is readily available to you ...
     
  13. Jerrell

    Jerrell Active Member

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    I know what you are asking, And I will asnwer in full at a latter time, I don't want to give incorrect information. God Bless.
     
  14. Jerrell

    Jerrell Active Member

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    I shall not name call for who am I to judge. I shall not judge your intelligence for the Bible says, [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him" 1 Corinthians 8:2-3

    So, all i know is that God is my Savior, and that I serve him, I wish you well Jay,

    In all that I do, it is to serve the Lord,

    [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1Co 2:14 -But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

    [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1Co 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

    Take into Account this Jay,

    [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 Corinthians 3:18-20 18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

    Dont try to use big words to try and make yourself look "bigger" or more "intelligent" I'd Rather men understand me, than to speak or type jibberish...o_O.
    [/FONT]
     
  15. Booko

    Booko Deviled Hen

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    Color is not subjective in a scientific sense, because you're talking about specific wavelengths.

    But if you think color isn't subjective to the human eye, let me introduce you to some interior designers I know. They can tell you all about working with clients.

    And I can't tell you how many times I've planted a particular fuschia salvia, only to have one client refer to it as "red" and another "purple."
     
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  16. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Thank you, Jerrell.

    One person who shares your committment is the Christian scholar Mahlon H. Smith, whose Synoptic Gospels Primer is a very useful resource. I remain very impressed, and I have often quoted, the words that appear under the Index on that website:

    Faith is no excuse for ignorance!
    Adherence to any tradition in disregard for textual evidence is sheer superstition.

    I suspect that he, too, was familiar with 1 Corinthians, as was Dr. Martin Luther King, the author of the signature appearing below.

    Similarly familiar with 1 Corinthians, and an expert on Apostle Paul: His Life and Theology, is Udo Schnell, the author of ...


    You will find this to be an excellent and respectful resource. I wish you good reading, and Shabbat Shalom ...
     
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  17. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    And people accuse the Gnostics of reading things into those texts.

    If that is a description of crucifixion, then i'm a marshmellow.

    Do you know where the tradition that Peter was crucified upside down came from Jerrell?
    An apocryphal text called the Acts of Peter, in the same text Peter performs miracles such as making dogs talk and having a magical battle with Simon Magus - you can see why this wasn't included in the biblical NT. Why believe the martyrdom story?


    Another case of selective reading?

    Matthew has Judas hanging himself. Acts (Acts 1:18-19) has Judas falling over in a field and bursting open.

    It seems you know a fair bit about your beliefs Jerrell, but i'm not sure you are truly able to answer the questions people are posing you here because of the nature of your faith. You seem to mix and match information between texts, discarding some completely and reading in meanings into passages that could mean a multitude of other things.

    Amalgamating the NT into a single book may well work for you, and i'm hapopy that it does. However, there are many here who have researched the origins of the various texts, understand that they are not "God breathed" - that they were written at different times, are often the result of more than one authors work and contain specific messages, unrelated to the other works they have been collected with. Therefore, people are posing scholarly questions to you that your version of Christianity is not in a position to answer to their satisfaction.
     
  18. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    Which books do you have in mind?

    A couple of the apostles are, I believe, written about from direct experience outside the Bible. In particular Paul and Peter. Can you support all 12? Please do so if you can.

    Then John did not write Revelations, as the author of revelations identifies himself as living in exile on the Greek island of Patmos.

    Paul wrote more of the NT than any other author. Who in the religion wielded more power than Paul after his conversion? Peter appears to have been his only nigh-equal.

    And that evidence would be where?

    Prove this claim.

    Like the Illiad proves Zeus? 4 gospels: one attributed to someone who never met Jesus. Tell me what three books prove about 12 men?

    So then your claim is indeed that the gospel writers didn't claim to see it and didn't actually see it? Good.

    You don't seem to know your bible very well:
    Matthew: Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified. Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers. And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.

    Mark: And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified. And the soldiers led him away into the hall, called Praetorium; and they call together the whole band. And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head
    So you are claiming that there were two different days where Barrabas was released and Jesus was stripped by Roman soldiers? I don't think so.

    Acts 1:18 Now this man [Judas] purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
    Very correct, but in doing so, Luke crosses Abraham. Let's just look at David down:

    Matthew: David, Solomon, Roboam, Abia, Asa, Josaphat, Joram, Ozias, Joatham, Achaz, Ezekias, Manasses, Amon, Josias, Jechonias, Salathiel, Zorobabel, Abiud, Eliakim, Azor, Sadoc, Achim, Eliud, Eleazar, Matthan, Jacob, Joseph

    Luke: David, Nathan, Mattatha, Menan, Mela, Eliakim, Jonan, Joseph, Judea, Siemon, Levi, Matthat, Jorum, Eliezer, Jose, Er, Elmodam, Cosam, Addi, Melchi, Neri, Salathiel, Zorobabel, Rhesa, Joanna. Juda, Joseph, Semei, Mattathias, Maath, Nagge, Esli, Naum, Amos, Mattathias, Joseph, Janna, Melchi, Levi, Matthat, Heli, Joseph

    Both begin at David and end at Joseph; but there's essentially no similarity between the two. One has 28 generations and the other 43. But they both supposedly cover David to Joseph.

    An easy question then. Who was Joseph's dad?
    "Joseph, which was the son of Heli" Luke 3:23
    "Jacob begat Joseph" Matthew Matthew 1:16

    I'm not discussing intent, I'm discussing factual error. What color was the robe? What was the mechanism of Judas's death? Who was Joseph's father?

    Was Jesus nailed to a cross or hung from a tree?
    Acts 5:30 "Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree"
    Acts 10:39 "whom they slew and hanged on a tree"
    Acts 13:29 "they took him down from the tree"
    1 Peter 2:24 "who his own self bare our sins in his
    own body on the tree"
    Galatians 3:13 "Christ... being made a curse upon us...
    Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree"

    Cite please.

    Speculative, and based on an unsubstantiate assertion. Please prove that the other apostles exsited, and that they were being persecuted and people were trying to kill them. Both Peter and Paul were quite public figures.

    Paul was a traveller throughout the region http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm

    1) It was a Ossuary (bone-box), not a tomb.
    2) "James" and "Jesus" were both common names from the era (like finding "Jim, brother of James" and assuming you have Jim and James Belushi).
    3) It turns out that the inscription had been added in modern times. It was a fake.
    "The incisions contained modern elements, indicating it was done by a skilful artist in recent years," he told New Scientist. The box itself is thought to date from the first century AD. The Israel Antiquities Authority has scores of similar specimens in its vaults.

    The investigators also exposed a stone tablet inscribed with 15 lines of Hebrew text as a fake. The inscriptions describe rules for maintaining an ancient Jewish temple. But modern features were also found in these inscriptions and linguistics experts found anomalies in the language used.

    "The person who wrote the inscription was a person who thinks in modern Hebrew," said Biblical language expert Avigdor Horowitz. "A person thinking in biblical Hebrew would see it as ridiculous." - http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3852
    That would be "me".

    Go find the biology book that said that.

    Though I was not referring to abiogenesis at the time. Creationism conflicts with actual boilogy in its claim that the bioshphere of the Earth is less than 10,000 years old and made of unrelated "kinds".

    The Romans believed that Zeus killed Chronos. The Heavan's Gate group believed that Aliens were coming to take their souls to paradise. The Christians believe that the Earth was formed by creating a firmament within the eternal waters. I see no difference between these three myths.

    The Bible has not made a single extraordinart prophecy which can be shown to have been made before the event and for which the event can be shown to have occurd.

    Are you insulting millions of Romans? Roman polytheistic beliefs are filled with so much prophecy, and so many correct readings of Oracles, and no-one can prove otherwise. The Bible is a group of stories, written of a myth, and Farytale about Jewish Gods.

    Look to your own eye before you look at that of the Greeks. And perhaps you should read your bible, as your argument has many ignorant claims about it.
     
  19. uumckk16

    uumckk16 Active Member

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    I respect that this is your belief, and I'm sorry if I've offended you, as I take it I have from all the bolding. I was just trying to get an answer to a question that's always bothered me, and you gave me your perspective. Thank you.

    However, can you not understand why this would be a problem for some people? Of course I cannot disagree that people would give different accounts of 9/11. I'm sure my friends and I would give different accounts of what happened this morning. People view things differently. And they remember things differently. That's a no-brainer.

    The problem for me is in accepting the Bible as the Word of God when it has so clearly been influenced by humans. I have no problem accepting the Bible as a great testimony to faith, a description of a great many people's experiences with the Divine, and in many places an outstanding moral code. I just can't believe it is God-inspired and that therefore I must believe everything in it when it directly contradicts itself. The facts that it was written at least 30 years after the fact and that it has gone through many translations do not help either.

    That's all.
     
  20. Jerrell

    Jerrell Active Member

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    1) Church History Says, that Peter was Crucified, And I understand you point, it doesn't seem feesible that that was what Jesus was speking about. But the Jews felt the same way about the "Son of God" they did not beleive that the Old Testament was talking about Jesus, although it actually did. I am not here to force anybody to beleive a certain thing, therefore all have the right to believe what they wish.

    I agree with you on most of what you just said, Even I can be wrong, I am human And I accept your Correcting me. Thank You.

    However, Acts 1:18-19 is symbolic, it means that Judas will die, and be burst ashunder spiritually, and the Field, is not really a field, but his Bishoprick, his office, namely, being an Apostle shall be given to another (Acts 1:20).

    Now Concerning you beleif that I am unable to answer Question is your opinion, I do not however read my own meaning into certain texts, and ignore others. PLus i don't put the Whole New Testament into One Book, All the Gospels work together giving a good view of what Happened, and what works well with me, is Serving God, Therefore shall i serve him.

    Plus I do nto have a "version" of Chrisitanity, you may beleive there are versions but there simply is not. Christianity means, Christ Like, and there is no "version" of being Christ Like, and as to being a Scholar, it doesn't take a Scholar to answer questions that a little boy can answer. Does it take a Math Teacher to teach someone how to do Addition? No, there are countless other people who can teach...now refering to your opinion of needing a Scholar...Scholars do not answer the bulk of questions purposed by the Curious, they are answered by Ministers of the Faith, of Which I am called. And it is not up to you to decide whether my answers are substantial or not, that is up to God, He is my Judge, do not presume to be mine.
     
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