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Question for believers in the Abrahamic God with respect to God and free will.

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
How is that direct intervention by God if he just allowed it to happen? When I say intervention by God, I mean direct intervention on his part such that He actually does something not passively allowing something to happen.
Assuming the flood and pre-flood stories happened, how exactly is that just if real justice is sending people to hell to burn and be tortured forever?
As with Adam, Adam was Not sent to any burning tortured hell but just ' returned ' to dust - Genesis 3:19
A person can Not ' return ' to a place he never was before. Adam went back to where he started from.
There was No post-mortem penalty , No double jeopardy for Adam, so none for anyone else.
When King James translated the word Gehenna into English as hell fire that put flames in hell.
Gehenna was a garbage pit where things were destroyed forever, so Gehenna is a fitting word for: destruction.
Destruction as Psalms 92:7 says that the wicked are ' destroyed forever' - Not roasted forever.

There will be ' direct intervention by God ' because the executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of the wicked as per Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
Why are there examples in the Bible, Torah, Koran and even IRL, if one is inclined to believe personal experiences, where God intervenes to stop persons from using their free will... yet according to theology, God isn't supposed to intervene to stop people from using their free will to do evil since He wouldn't be a loving person if He did so... so my question for members of the Abrahamic religions is: how do you reconcile this belief with God's actions?
I don't reconcile, I just do what I want.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
If you read the scriptures, you will find that God acted only once. After finishing his creative activities, he thereafter only reacted to the activities of his intelligent creation.
A reaction is an action.

When has God stopped people from exercising their free will? He has never stopped anyone from making their own decisions. Does that mean that he will never hold them to account for what they choose to do? We are free to break the laws of the land, but there are penalties if we do
I can think of a few.

Why would God forgive the same sin twice. It would mean that we weren't really sorry the first time.
I thought Jesus offered infinite forgiveness of sins.

There is no imagery of "hell" in the Bible. The dead are said to go to either hades (sheol) or gehenna. Neither one involved any kind of life afterlife.

Jesus condemned the Pharisees to "gehenna" not "hades". Hades is simply the grave. This is one doctrine that the church really messed up. They translate both words as "hell" and their version of it means eternal torture and suffering in a fire that never stops. Would a loving God even think up such a place? Not according to Jeremiah.

When Israel fell to sacrificing their children in the fire to Molech, God said....
"They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’" (Jeremiah 7:31)
If God condemned his people for burning their children in a fire, which he said had never even entered his mind, why would he then do that to his own children?

The Valley of Hinnom, (Gehenna) which was the place where this heinous activity took place, was just outside the walls of Jerusalem. God had it turned into a rubbish dump where the city's refuse was thrown into 'Gehenna' for disposal. The carcasses of dead animals and even the bodies of executed criminals were thrown in to the fires. What the flames missed, the maggots finished off. Gehenna was not hell but a symbolic place where those considered unworthy of a resurrection were cast.
To a devout Jew, a burial tomb with the name of the person and his family lineage were inscribed, was synonymous with God remembering a person so as to bring them back to life in the world to come. Those cast into Gehenna has no such tomb and it was believed that God would not remember them. Their death was to be eternal.

If you think about it, everlasting death is the opposite of everlasting life. The ancient Jews had no belief in life after death except by resurrection.
What about NDEs of hell and the fact that it's possible that another person got a different revelation from God about hell than you?

No he did not. He allowed Pharaoh to exercise his free will 10 times before he acted to put a stop to his nonsense.
Didn't He harden his heart?

unts (Matthew and John) and the other two are accounts obtained from eyewitnesses. They all harmonize, each adding more detail
That's debatable.

If you believe that God inspired the writers, then why not put faith in them?
If God answers prayers then why not believe accounts of personal experience with answered prayer?
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
God didn’t remove pharaohs free will. Pharaoh wanted to keep his slaves, but because of the plagues, he freed them. He did things that he didn’t want, but it doesn’t mean his will was removed. Free will doesn’t mean person can do whatever he wants, it means only that person can want what ever he wants.
Didn't God harden his heart?

Sorry, I have no reason to believe that God has intervened someone’s free will.
Well there are personal testimonies by believers who claim that God messed with a person's free will to stop evil from happening to them.

Evil doesn’t continue forever, so I think it is stopped. I believe that in this first death God allows evil things to happen, because people wanted to know evil. Luckily this is only a short lesson and evil doesn’t continue forever.
That didn't answer my question.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
Yes, I know there are people who have what is called NDE's of both a religious-myth hell and the bright light tunnel.
I suppose since persons have been taught about a non-biblical hell as being Scripture then that is in their mind.
What if those people actually got a true revelation from God? What if your idea of hell is wrong?

There is only divine involvement in free-will choices when free-will choices have been so badly corrupted that a person has reached the point of No repenting, No reforming such as the people of Noah's day - Genesis 6:11.
This will also prove true at the coming ' time of separation ' on Earth as found at Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
Any divine intervention to stop a person from a making a choice counts against the idea that God is all loving and absolutely cares about freedom.

For right now I find Scripture gives us several reasons why God doesn't intervene:
1 ) Each person is drawn out by one's own desires - James 1:13-15.
2 ) Satan is like the behind-the-scenes puppeteer misleading with propaganda - Revelation 12:12,9
3 ) Time and unforeseen events happen to all of us - Ecclesiastes 9:11
4 ) Man has dominated man to man's injury, man's hurt - Ecclesiastes 8:9
Job's integrity in connection to using his free will under suffering conditions thus proved Satan a liar and so can we.
Jesus kept his integrity to death thus also proving under adverse conditions one can use his free will to be faithful to God.
In other words, only people of integrity toward God will be preserved.
God will intervene at the soon coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth as per Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
The wicked will be ' destroyed forever ' according to Psalms 92:7.
Notice who remains according to Proverbs 2:21-22 ____________________
Ok but you said above that God does intervene, so which is it?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
A reaction is an action.

No it isn't. A reaction is a response to someone else's action.

I can think of a few.

Please list some if you want to talk about it.

I thought Jesus offered infinite forgiveness of sins.

Who told you that? God's patience has its limits, otherwise he would not be sending Jesus to judge the world.
If you sin, forgiveness is only granted on the basis of your sincere repentance. To truly repent means that you will not repeat the same sin and expect God to keep forgiving you again and again. If you are truly sorry for what you did, then you will not repeat it, especially if you have asked for God's help not to do so.

Hebrews 6:4-6...
"For as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit 5 and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, 6 but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame."

What about NDEs of hell and the fact that it's possible that another person got a different revelation from God about hell than you?

There is only one "god" who wants you to believe in hell...and it isn't Jehovah. What kind of fiend takes pleasure in torturing people forever because they committed sin in their short lifetime? Is that justice?

Didn't He harden his heart?

No. He simply didn't soften it. As one who can read hearts, God allowed Pharaoh's heart free reign to show him (and us) where it would take him....and what would happen if we followed his example.

That's debatable.

Then debate it already....

If God answers prayers then why not believe accounts of personal experience with answered prayer?

There are two "gods" who answer prayers.....the real one and the pretender....the content of the prayer, who it is directed to, and what the expectation of its answer might be, tells us which one was really answered and who answered it.
What do you think prayer is for?
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Didn't God harden his heart?

Yes, and it happened by ending plague. Pharaoh’s heart was hardened every time things were well, and it was softened when God sent the plagues. So, in order to keep the heart softened, God would have had to let the plagues to continue. Pharaoh’s free will was not limited.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
What if those people actually got a true revelation from God? What if your idea of hell is wrong?
Any divine intervention to stop a person from a making a choice counts against the idea that God is all loving and absolutely cares about freedom.
Ok but you said above that God does intervene, so which is it?

What if the police never intervened when a crime happens ____________
Would that be loving never to stop a criminal ____________
God only involves Himself for the sake of justice for the righteous.
It is only the wicked who will be destroyed - Psalms 92:7.

Not 'my' idea of hell being wrong, but that the Bible's idea of hell is the correct idea.
Bible teaches that biblical hell is temporary.
After everyone in biblical hell is ' delivered up ' ( resurrected out of hell ), then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell - Revelation 20:13-14.
If hell was a permanent place No one could be 'delivered up' ( resurrected ) out of hell.

Since the dead know nothing ( Ecclesiastes 9:5 ) nothing but sleep (Psalms 115:17 ; John 11:11-14) then the dead feel No pain/ No bliss, just restful sleep. Even the word cemetery means: sleeping place.
What is wrong is that false clergy teach a religious-myth hellfire of No escape.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I thought Jesus offered infinite forgiveness of sins.....................

It is biblical that Jesus died for all - 1 John 1:7; Ephesians 1:7
But the reason Matthew 20:28 says Jesus' ransom covers MANY and does Not say all is because all will Not repent.
Scripture teaches that there is an 'unforgivable sin ' as found at Matthew 12:32.
So, in order to be forgiven one must ' repent ' so as Not to ' perish ' (<- Be destroyed - 2 Peter 3:9; Psalms 92:7 )
 
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