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Question for atheists

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
PopeADope: He creates an incredible unbelievable hypothesis
SkepticThinker replies: "Has anything like that ever happened? Ever?"
stvdv replies: "Probably not to a Skeptic Thinker"

I think very simple in this thread. So I can't explain it more simple.

Maybe the below would have been more clear.

PopeADope: He creates an incredible unbelievable hypothesis
SkepticThinker replies: "Has anything like that ever happened? Ever?"
stvdv replies: "(That happened) Probably not to a Skeptic Thinker"
So you're saying it has happened before, to someone who is a gullible thinker?
Okay. o_O What use is that to anyone?
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
So you're saying it has happened before, to someone who is a gullible thinker?
Okay. o_O What use is that to anyone?
Probably also not to a "non Skeptic Thinker" (this specific @PopeADope hypothesis)

But when one is Skeptic Thinker one is less open to these kind of healings

My neighbor was a Christian. Fell from a horse, broke her back. A Christian healer came to a place nearby. I told her "why you don't go there?". No, she did not believe it would work. I am not a Christian, but kept bugging her. Finally to get rid of me, she agreed to go. She was miraculously healed.

If she would not have gone there (stayed Skeptic Thinker), she most probably would not have been healed.

Hence my remark "Probably not to a "Skeptic Thinker"
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Probably also not to a "non Skeptic Thinker" (this specific @PopeADope hypothesis)

But when one is Skeptic Thinker one is less open to these kind of healings

My neighbor was a Christian. Fell from a horse, broke her back. A Christian healer came to a place nearby. I told her "why you don't go there?". No, she did not believe it would work. I am not a Christian, but kept bugging her. Finally to get rid of me, she agreed to go. She was miraculously healed.

If she would not have gone there (stayed Skeptic Thinker), she most probably would not have been healed.

Hence my remark "Probably not to a "Skeptic Thinker"
I don't agree with you that being skeptical of claims is a bad thing. If I did, I'd have to believe everything I hear, as you apparently do.
Sorry. I'm an evidence person.

I do have to wonder ... if all these Christian healers exist in the world, why aren't they spending their time in hospitals curing children of cancer and other horrible illnesses? Why aren't they help growing back the limbs of child amputees? Why aren't they presenting their magical powers to the science community, who could potentially test them and contribute something amazing to the world? The fact that they don't do any of that speaks volumes to me, being such a skeptic and all. ;)

I am an evidence person for a reason. I wish more people would be.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I don't agree with you that being skeptical of claims is a bad thing
Being Skeptical of claims is not a bad thing. But Skeptical gives me the feeling that one is not 100% open anymore. I prefer to stay 100% open here.

Sorry. I'm an evidence person.
Don't be sorry. I am also an evidence person. I try out all things myself (if I'm interested). Only then I know.
No need to believe, but also not to disbelieve. I just prefer to "stay open minded (or rather no-mind)"

I do have to wonder ... if all these Christian healers exist in the world, why aren't they spending their time in hospitals curing children of cancer and other horrible illnesses? Why aren't they help growing back the limbs of child amputees? Why aren't they presenting their magical powers to the science community, who could potentially test them and contribute something amazing to the world? The fact that they don't do any of that speaks volumes to me, being such a skeptic and all. ;)
The healer (example I gave), does not claim to have powers at all. He just prays. And maybe once in 1000 cases something like this happens. I coincidentally was there. Or maybe because I was open, not Skeptic, but also not "non"Skeptic. Just open, aware, a witness.
(Thanks ... my word choice was indeed wrong ... he was not a Christian Healer ... he was a Christian praying to God to grant healing)

I am an evidence person for a reason. I wish more people would be.
I am all for that. I am also an evidence person (also for a reason ... I don't trust people easy).
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Being Skeptical of claims is not a bad thing. But Skeptical gives me the feeling that one is not 100% open anymore. I prefer to stay 100% open here.
All it means is that I don't accept every claim I hear at face value. I require evidence of some kind in order to believe a claim is valid.
I'm open to verifiable evidence.

Don't be sorry. I am also an evidence person. I try out all things myself (if I'm interested). Only then I know.
No need to believe, but also not to disbelieve. I just prefer to "stay open minded (or rather no-mind)"
I believe things when I have good evidence indicating that I should believe a thing, and not a minute before that.
Otherwise, I'd be stuck having to believe every claim I hear until someone could disprove it.

The healer (example I gave), does not claim to have powers at all. He just prays. And maybe once in 1000 cases something like this happens. I coincidentally was there. Or maybe because I was open, not Skeptic, but also not "non"Skeptic. Just open, aware, a witness.
(Thanks ... my word choice was indeed wrong ... he was not a Christian Healer ... he was a Christian praying to God to grant healing)
How do you know it was the praying that healed your neighbour?

Do you not realize how many people are praying, at any given moment, for starving children all over the world to be safe and fed and yet not an answer to all those prayers?
But some healer prays over your neighbour and God supposedly heals that one guy's broken back and we're supposed to now believe that prayer has healing powers? Something doesn't add up there, wouldn't you say?

I am all for that. I am also an evidence person (also for a reason ... I don't trust people easy).
Great!
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
I am open to miracles. The universe is a mystery and full of miracles, and when one was healed, as described in the OP, that would be a miracle too. Not too much to attribute this to God IMO. And feeling of awe and wonder seems spot on to me.

I love to keep my feeling of awe and wonder. Even if others mock it. Maybe they only try to communicate that they lost it.

I have experienced myself quite a few miracles and I have seen with others a few. So, although @PopeADope his hypothetical miracles are even for me "almost too much", I rather keep myself open to anything.

And remembering @PopeADope his personal miraculous death escapes (coming close to what he describes in his OP), I would definitely not call his OP



My original reply was to the above quote, with which I hugely disagree.
I have experienced no miracles, just some low probability occurrences that do not require the invocation of supernatural forces. Remember, your god must hate amputees ...
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I'm open to verifiable evidence.
I prefer checking out important things personally ... get my personal evidence

How do you know it was the praying that healed your neighbour?
I know ... I was there ... personal evidence. I don't expect you to believe that .. you were not there. Hence I say always ... I get my own evidence

Do you not realize how many people are praying, at any given moment, for starving children all over the world to be safe and fed and yet not an answer to all those prayers?
But some healer prays over your neighbour and God supposedly heals that one guy's broken back and we're supposed to now believe that prayer has healing powers? Something doesn't add up there, wouldn't you say?
Oh yes, I realize

To me it adds up. You need to get your own personal evidence. Don't believe me. What is the fun in believing others
But I see many people they sit on their chair waiting for the evidence to arrive in their mailbox ... that's the difference ... I get my evidence

I would never say to someone what you said in the last quote. I would go there and check it out myself ... then I know. Not from behind laptop.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I have experienced no miracles, just some low probability occurrences that do not require the invocation of supernatural forces.
Then I understand you don't believe in them. I would not believe (nor disbelieve), unless I experience miracles myself.

Remember, your god must hate amputees ...
Some people believe in "hate", so they create/choose a God with "hate"attributes ... I do not.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
But Genesis doesn't describe something coming from nothing. It describes God creating the world out of water.

No, it says that "God commanded the sea to bring forth life."
Our all-knowing world today mocks Genesis, but in bible time there
were plenty who mocked the idea that the seas could create life -
it's standard text today.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
But how do we know it's the voice of God, and not the voice of an alien or a pixie? What does God's voice even sound like? What does an alien sound like? :shrug:

One way to convince another person you have heard from the voice of God
is through prophecy. That is, you say God said something that can be proven.
The bible is shot through with predictions that the Jewish nation would reject
their Messiah - they would lose their nation and the Messiah would be believed
upon by the Gentiles. But when the Gentiles no longer believe the Jews would
be brought out of the nation that had been their "graves" and return to take
back their homeland "with the sword." That's happening right now. Either the
various writers, over 1500 years, just fluked this, or they heard the voice of
God.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Then I understand you don't believe in them. I would not believe (nor disbelieve), unless I experience miracles myself.
I believe in nothing and I have experienced no miracles. Miracles are just, IMHO, a collision of free floating anxiety, a lack of knowledge, and an overweening ego.
Some people believe in "hate", so they create/choose a God with "hate"attributes ... I do not.
I guess your unfamiliar with the meme: "Since no amount of prayer has ever resulted in the regrowth of a human limb, something any salamander can do, one must assume that your god hates amputees."
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I believe in nothing and I have experienced no miracles. Miracles are just, IMHO, a collision of free floating anxiety, a lack of knowledge, and an overweening
IMHO, what you write here, about something you never experienced, so you have ZERO knowledge of, has totally no value whatsoever.

I guess your unfamiliar with the meme: "Since no amount of prayer has ever resulted in the regrowth of a human limb, something any salamander can do, one must assume that your god hates amputees."
So you, having no experience with God or miracles, knows best how God should have done His Creation. Again makes no sense at all IMO

Oh, and by the way, I have seen a cut of finger regrow including the nail. Seems God created you better than you thought. You just failed so far to use all of your potential given by God to you.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
So your logic is based on the assumption that any weird horse pucky you choose to claim is real solely on the basis of your claim that it is and if anyone denies your claim they are wrong because the denial in and of itself shifts the burden of proof. You must live the old Superman Comics Bizarro World.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I am open to miracles. The universe is a mystery and full of miracles


What do you mean, "full of miracles"?

, and when one was healed, as described in the OP, that would be a miracle too.

That huge "what if" sure would be a miracle.
But stuff like that never happens..................

Not too much to attribute this to God IMO

But it's all just fantasy.... stuff like that never happens.


And feeling of awe and wonder seems spot on to me.

Feeling of awe and wonder, concerning fantasies and implausible/impossible hypotheticals?
You seem easily impressed.

I love to keep my feeling of awe and wonder.

Sure. I feel awe and wonder as well when I look up at the stars, read about black holes or watch a BBC nature documentary showing the incredible things that animals do.

I, however, see no reason to jump from their to gods or other such supernatural shenannigans.

Even if others mock it. Maybe they only try to communicate that they lost it.

I definatly did not lose it. If anything, it only becomes bigger the more I learn.
And when I hear physicists (like for example Neil DeGrass Tyson or Lawrence Krauss, or biologists like Richard Dawkins) speak about their field of expertise, it seems to me that they too have a BIG feeling of "awe and wonder". But none of them either seem to feel a need to take those feelings and use them to jump to gods or other supernatural shenannigans.

There is no reason to.

I have experienced myself quite a few miracles and I have seen with others a few.

Care to give an example?

So, although @PopeADope his hypothetical miracles are even for me "almost too much", I rather keep myself open to anything.

Sure. I have an open mind as well. Just not so open that my brains are falling out.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
But it's all just fantasy.... stuff like that never happens.
Hence you are an Atheist and I am not

Feeling of awe and wonder, concerning fantasies and implausible/impossible hypotheticals?
You seem easily impressed.
That is your mental fantasy

Sure. I feel awe and wonder as well when I look up at the stars, read about black holes or watch a BBC nature documentary showing the incredible things that animals do.
Glad to read you did not lose the feeling of awe and wonder.

I, however, see no reason to jump from their to gods or other such supernatural shenannigans.
Of course not, you are an Atheist. I would even urge you "not to jump to gods":D

I definatly did not lose it. If anything, it only becomes bigger the more I learn.
And when I hear physicists (like for example Neil DeGrass Tyson or Lawrence Krauss, or biologists like Richard Dawkins) speak about their field of expertise, it seems to me that they too have a BIG feeling of "awe and wonder". But none of them either seem to feel a need to take those feelings and use them to jump to gods or other supernatural shenannigans.

There is no reason to.
Agreed:D
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Care to give an example?
No.

You are an Atheist. I believe that it is perfectly okay to choose the path of Atheism. No need to become Theist at all.

So no need (even better not) to hear my examples. They are quite convincing, and I would violate Rule #8 (trying to coerce someone away from his (non) belief).

And my Master told me to not proselytize, and that Atheism is also a valid path.

And besides that, you are not open (using the word Shenannigans twice), so definitely better not to share my examples

Sure. I have an open mind as well. Just not so open that my brains are falling out
I would not want that to happen to you:D. Another good reason not to share my examples. Your mind might get too open. And your brains drop out. Too messy. Better play it safe.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Hence you are an Atheist and I am not

People don't miraculously grow limbs back and "hence" you are a theist?

Care to walke me through the logic of that statement, because you seem to have skipped a few steps....


That is your mental fantasy

???

You are being very incoherent. What exactly are you saying is my "mental fantasy"?

Glad to read you did not lose the feeling of awe and wonder.

Why would I have lost it? Is that the only explanation you can come up with for when "awe and wonder" doesn't result in the faith based leap towards "therefor god"?

Of course not, you are an Atheist.

That's not the reason why. In fact, you got that causality exactly backwards.

It's not that I don't make faith based leaps to gods because I'm an atheist.
Rather, I'm an atheist because I don't make such faith based leaps to gods.


I would even urge you "not to jump to gods":D

I would just urge you not to make faith based leaps. Be it to gods or to anything else.
Faith based leaps, tend to not lead to accurate answers.


So you agree there is no reason to, but you still do?
Why?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
No.

You are an Atheist. I believe that it is perfectly okay to choose the path of Atheism. No need to become Theist at all.

So no need (even better not) to hear my examples. They are quite convincing, and I would violate Rule #8 (trying to coerce someone away from his (non) belief).

And my Master told me to not proselytize, and that Atheism is also a valid path.

And besides that, you are not open (using the word Shenannigans twice), so definitely better not to share my examples

Owkay. Your answer is very consistent with someone who's bluff has been called, but tries to weasle out of it.

I would not want that to happen to you:D. Another good reason not to share my examples. Your mind might get too open. And your brains drop out. Too messy. Better play it safe.

Yep. Very consistent indeed.



Thanks for playing.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
All claimed God-experiences are by nature private and subjective. Therefore it is impossible to pull them out of the subjective sphere for public dissection and analysis.
Thanks for sharing. Very helpful.

People don't miraculously grow limbs back and "hence" you are a theist?

Care to walke me through the logic of that statement, because you seem to have skipped a few steps....
You said "stuff like that never happens" ... I just keep it open ... miracles can and do happen.

You are being very incoherent. What exactly are you saying is my "mental fantasy"?
That I am easily impressed

Why would I have lost it? Is that the only explanation you can come up with for when "awe and wonder" doesn't result in the faith based leap towards "therefor god"?
Most of the time, if I say something, that is just what it is. Sarcasm, cynicism, ironic I rather avoid.

It's not that I don't make faith based leaps to gods because I'm an atheist.
Rather, I'm an atheist because I don't make such faith based leaps to gods.
You said: "I, however, see no reason to jump from their to gods or other such supernatural shenannigans."
I said: "Of course not, you are an Atheist."
Again, if I say something, that is just what it is. No sarcasm or whatever. I understand that an Atheist sees no reason to jump from there to gods...

I would just urge you not to make faith based leaps. Be it to gods or to anything else.
Faith based leaps, tend to not lead to accurate answers.
I urged you to continue with what you are doing. I do not belittle the way you choose.
And thanks for your concerns and your advice. I am happy with my way though, and my answers are accurate enough for me.

So you agree there is no reason to, but you still do?
Why?
I agree there is no "reason to take those feelings and use them to jump to gods or other supernatural shenannigans."

Why I still do? That is very simple. Once you experience that bhakti yoga works, it has it's charm and a lot of charm. Just let me have my fun, I let you have your fun. I don't tell you to stop sex and drugs and rock 'n roll or whatever you prefer. Some people enjoy drinking coffee or beer. And even 1 Liter a day or so. Disgusting if you ask me. But I don't tell them to stop. If that is what makes them happy, I let them have it. I don't urge them to stop it. Why would I?

Note: I understand if it is hard for you to believe that I do not see Atheism as inferior to Theism, because on RF I get many times the feeling that quite a few Theists do feel their way superior than the Atheist way (and even superior than other Theist denominations). I do NOT entertain such thoughts or feelings. Therefore if I tell an Atheist to continue on his path I mean it. Just as simple as that.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
You said "stuff like that never happens" ... I just keep it open ...

But people don't grow limbs back. Just like apples never fall "up" and instead, always fall "down".

You can "keep open" all you want to phenomenon that would be violations or suspensions of natural law (like people growing back limbs, or apples falling "up", or pink leprechauns suddenly swarming out of your fridge, or extra-dimensional aliens materializing before your eyes, or......), but the fact is that such stuff simply doesn't happen.

miracles can and do happen.

Or so you claim....
Some people also claim to have seen Elvis at Walmart. But you know.....

That I am easily impressed

Well, clearly you are.... as you are seemingly willing to simply believe claims like the one above....
So, it's not much a fantasy, it seems to me, to state you easily believe fantastical claims. After all, it's per your own acknowledgement, not just merely my assessment.....

Most of the time, if I say something, that is just what it is. Sarcasm, cynicism, ironic I rather avoid.

How is this in any way an answer to the question you are responding to?

You said: "I, however, see no reason to jump from their to gods or other such supernatural shenannigans."
I said: "Of course not, you are an Atheist."
Again, if I say something, that is just what it is. No sarcasm or whatever. I understand that an Atheist sees no reason to jump from there to gods...

I didn't claim you were being sarcastic.
I just took your response as is. And your response implies a causal relation between me being an atheist and me not making a leap of faith to gods. That is to say: that I don't make those jumps because I'm an atheist. That is just incorrect.

A correct response on your part would have been something like: "Off course not, you value evidence and reason and stay clear of faith based beliefs".

I urged you to continue with what you are doing. I do not belittle the way you choose.
And thanks for your concerns and your advice. I am happy with my way though, and my answers are accurate enough for me.

There's no such thing as "personal accuracy".
Statements about the external world are either accurate or they are not.

I agree there is no "reason to take those feelings and use them to jump to gods or other supernatural shenannigans."

Why I still do? That is very simple. Once you experience that bhakti yoga works, it has it's charm and a lot of charm. Just let me have my fun, I let you have your fun. I don't tell you to stop sex and drugs and rock 'n roll or whatever you prefer. Some people enjoy drinking coffee or beer. And even 1 Liter a day or so. Disgusting if you ask me. But I don't tell them to stop. If that is what makes them happy, I let them have it. I don't urge them to stop it. Why would I?

Note: I understand if it is hard for you to believe that I do not see Atheism as inferior to Theism, because on RF I get many times the feeling that quite a few Theists do feel their way superior than the Atheist way (and even superior than other Theist denominations). I do NOT entertain such thoughts or feelings. Therefore if I tell an Atheist to continue on his path I mean it. Just as simple as that.

Ow don't get me wrong, I don't give a rat's behind about what you think about atheism or not.
I only care about what is true.

Sure, being a secular democrat / humanist, I do are about those theists who can't seem to comprehend that their religious beliefs are their own private business and I will come down heavy on those who'll try and stuff their religious shennanigans down my or other people's throat, no doubt.

Kuddo's to you if you aren't like that and are a "secular theist" yourself. Great. Awesome.

But that doesn't stop us from having a discussion on what is actually true.
 
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