1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Question for all religions on here

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Frank Goad, Mar 10, 2020.

  1. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    21,146
    Ratings:
    +7,538
    Religion:
    deist
    Hmmmm...... The story I see started at the Jordan River.

    I know Christians who tell me that Jesus made the World, held back the Red Sea, brought the Israelites out of Egypt..... You've all got various kinds of stories about Jesus, but I see a man who joined up with the Immerser and stayed with him until the Immerser was arrested..... and then tried to pick up that mission and carry it on.

    I'm a Deist. Deists don't see Jesus as God, just a tiny part of God like everything else.
     
  2. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,919
    Ratings:
    +684
    Religion:
    None
    You don't appear to have answered my point.
    John is mentioned in the Old Testament. John holds a highly symbolic position -
    he is the greatest of all the prophets, he is the last Old Testament prophet, he
    heralds the coming of the Messiah as an Elijah figure. The last of John's followers
    were RE-BAPTISED in Acts 19.
    But "John did no miracle" and John pointed people to Jesus.
     
  3. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,919
    Ratings:
    +684
    Religion:
    None
    You mentioned something about demonstrating and picketing. I can't draw
    any other conclusion but that Jesus' people were politicals.
    There is equality in the Kingdom of Heaven but not what people hold today
    as equality. Sinners are not equal with saints - an adulterer is not equal with
    someone who respects their marriage, for instance.
    Jesus was not equal to his disciples.
    The people who came to hear the disciples were not equal to those disciples.
    Women were not equal to men in marriage
    Children were not equal to adults
    Servants were not equal to their masters
    Citizens were not equal to their governors, princesses, kings etc..

    How we are all equal in the New Testament is through the universality of mankind.
    We all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. We can all plead our case
    with God and seek forgiveness through Christ.
     
  4. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,919
    Ratings:
    +684
    Religion:
    None
    The bread and wine Jesus gave is in no way to be compared with an ordinary meal.
    He made this point with John and James when He asked could they drink the cup
    He would drink from.
    No, this wasn't a squall - it says the veil of the temple was torn, top to bottom. A huge
    and very thick fabric.
    I have no confidence in preachers claiming to physically heal people. Such people I
    have encountered can't do anything spiritual either.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,942
    Ratings:
    +581
    Religion:
    Christian
    The story of Lazarus and the rich man is more than just a parable..

    In Luke 16:26, Jesus spoke about the great gulf fixed..that after people dies. they enter into the great gulf fix..
    The great gulf fix stands between those that have died and those that are still alive.

    Those that have died can not cross over to us nor can we cross over to those that have died. Because there's a great gulf fix between the two..
    That once a person dies. Their body of flesh and blood returns back to the dust of the earth where it came from.
    And the person spirit which is inside of the body returns back to God who gave it.

    The story of Lazarus and the rich man.
    Jesus is using Lazarus and the rich man.
    In a parable to illustrate the reality of those that die and those that are still alive.
    that there's a great gulf fix between the two.
    That those who die can not cross over to those who are alive and those that are alive can not cross over to those that have died.

    Therefore the story of Lazarus and the rich man is actually parable but also reality.

    A parable is taking one thing and compare it to another thing.
    In this case Jesus is taking Lazarus and the rich man and comparing them with the great gulf fix.
    The rich man being on the other side of the great gulf fix can not cross over to those that are alive.
    And those that are alive can not cross over to the rich man.
    Because there's a great gulf fix that stands between the two.
    Actually those that have died...their in another dimension than we are.
    It's like the air..why can't we see the air..we can feel the air..but can not see the air.
    Because the air is in another dimension than we are.
    So in like manner those that die are in another dimension than we are alive.
     
  6. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    17,665
    Ratings:
    +8,733
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    The early earth never had an organic haze? References please. The rest is conjecture with an active imagination and a religious agenda.

    There has always been light since the beginning of the expansion of the universe.

    Claim God created humans, is simply a religious belief and no parallel in science.

    Genesis can also be more easily interpreted that world is flat and the earth is the centerof the universe.
     
    #66 shunyadragon, Mar 13, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
  7. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    17,665
    Ratings:
    +8,733
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Take it from you????? You have no academic background in the related sciences, I do, and I cite other academic sources, which you make conflicting claims without academic references.

    Genesis can also be more easily interpreted that world is flat and the earth is the center of the universe.
     
    #67 shunyadragon, Mar 13, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
  8. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,919
    Ratings:
    +684
    Religion:
    None
    First link I found after Googling "earth life began land sea"
    The reference to a few volcanoes sticking out of the water isn't Genesis' account.
    Genesis states that first the continents rose, then life appeared on land.
    As for the earth being the center of the universe - bible doesn't say that, but it can...
    the "center" is the observer because there is no center. Therefore you are quite
    correct to say the earth is the center of the universe - the earth being the observer.

    ps this article is about stromatolites - 2019 work focused upon the organic chemistry
    side of the picture - how lipids, RNA etc evolved.

    Ancient Earth consisted of a huge ocean spotted with volcanic land masses.


    Washington, United States: A paradigm-shifting hypothesis has pushed back the time for the emergence of microbial life on Earth by 580 million years, suggesting that life began not in the sea but on land.

    The new model is based on stromatolites -- round, multi-layered mineral structures that range from the size of golf balls to weather balloons and represent the oldest evidence that there were living organisms on Earth 3.5 billion years ago.

    The team from University of California-Santa Cruz and University of New South Wales in Sydney scoured the forbidding landscape of the Pilbara region of Western Australia looking for clues to how ancient microbes could have produced the abundant stromatolites that were discovered there in the 1970s.

    Scientists who believed life began in the ocean thought these mineral formations had formed in shallow, salty seawater, just like living stromatolites in the World Heritage-listed area of Shark Bay, which is a two-day drive from the Pilbara.

    But Tara Djokic, PhD student at University of New South Wales Sydney, discovered that the stromatolites had not formed in salt water but instead in conditions more like the hot springs of Yellowstone.

    "What she (Ms Djokic) showed was that the oldest fossil evidence for life was in fresh water. It's a logical continuation to life beginning in a freshwater environment," said David Deamer, an astrobiologist from UC Santa Cruz.

    Ms Djokic's discovery -- together with Martin Van Kranendonk, director of the Australian Centre for Astrobiology -- is described in the August issue of journal Scientific American.

    In Mr Deamer's vision, ancient Earth consisted of a huge ocean spotted with volcanic land masses.

    Rain would fall on the land, creating pools of fresh water that would be heated by geothermal energy and then cooled by runoff.
     
  9. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,919
    Ratings:
    +684
    Religion:
    None
    For sure, there's been light from about half a million years after the big bang.
    But GENESIS IS SPEAKING FROM THE VIEWPOINT OF THE OBSERVER.
    thus there was no light on earth - at least, not direct light. NASA's mission to
    Saturn's moon Titan was to study this "precursor earth" - and part of the study
    was on the "aerosol atmosphere" similar to what earth once had.

    A science depiction of the early earth of both science and Genesis. I suggest the
    earth was a tad darker than this. Tons of aerosols were being pumped into the
    atmosphere every day, and the sun was much fainter too.
    C0303629-Earth_s_first_oceans,_illustration.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  10. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    21,146
    Ratings:
    +7,538
    Religion:
    deist
    I read all of your posts.
    I am not a Christian. I am a Deist. I just research the gospels, history and archaeology to find a balance of probability for the Jesus story.

    If you read the synoptics you will see that Jesus did demonstrate in the Temple courts. Look what he did to the money changers and sellers. And he did picket the courts, not letting folks travel through them. You just see things in the story that I don't.

    But earlier you mentioned children and sex changes or something. Where you got that from is really a bit weird. Do you have a source for any one incident?
     
  11. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2018
    Messages:
    2,718
    Ratings:
    +465
    Religion:
    Christian
    If it is not a parable, then the devil was right and God was wrong in Genesis. God said Adam and Eve would die if the disobeyed (Gen 2:17) whereas the devil said they would not die (Gen 3:4).

    Furthermore, there are ample verses that say when we die there are no thoughts, no consciousness, no awareness, etc. In other words dead people are dead. Seems simple enough, but for some darn reason most folks think Grandma is up in heaven having a good 'ol time and smiling down on them. If that is the case, I wonder why they think God will have to raise her up at the end. Yet another case of tradition trumping truth (Matt 15:6).

    Lazarus died, and assuming God is the one who told the truth in Genesis (I think that is fair to say :)), he could not have been talking to anybody. The only thing left is that it is a parable which is a type of figure of speech. A figure of speech is used to grab our attention, to emphasize. To those who do hold to the idea that dead people are actually dead, it is indeed an attention grabber to say Lazarus did talk. It's clearly a parable.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,504
    Ratings:
    +3,492
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Can use provide me with a cite to a dictionary that defines a parable as a type of figure of speech or defines a figure of speech such that the definition fits a parable?
     
  13. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2018
    Messages:
    2,718
    Ratings:
    +465
    Religion:
    Christian
    Hello RabbiO.

    "Parable is a figure of speech, which presents a short story, typically with a moral lesson at the end."
    The whole article is an interesting read. He gives a few examples, including one from the Koran, two from the scriptures, and one from profane writing.

    Take care.
     
  14. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    15,295
    Ratings:
    +2,588
    Jesus and his 1st-century followers were politically neutral.
    They did Not even get involved in the issues of the day between the Jews verses the Romans.
    Jesus had ' zeal ' for God's House of Worship and showed that zeal twice by getting rid of the money changers.
    At John 2:17 Jesus fulfilled Psalms 69:9 about having ' zeal ' for God's House (Temple) .
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    15,295
    Ratings:
    +2,588
    First, I find Jesus would Not address the crowds ' without ' a parable illustrated story - Matthew 13:34.
    At Luke 16:1 the 'rich man and the steward' are Not real persons.
    So, there is also No reason to think the people of Luke 16:26 are real persons.
    I find at Luke 16:14 Jesus is addressing those hate-filled Pharisees.
    They represent the Jewish religious leaders, so Not just the Pharisees, but the scribes, Sadducees and chief priests.
    They have become ' rich ' in having spiritual privileges or opportunities.
    They dress themselves in 'royal purple and fine linen.....' because they are self-righteous. (verse 19)
    Those religious 'rich man' leaders view the common people as beneath them.
    Looking down and calling such common folk as ' am ha'a'rets '( people of the earth )
    Thus, beggar Lazarus stands for those common people who the religious leaders deny spiritual nourishment.
    The religious leaders look down on the people as 'spiritually diseased', fit to only keep company with dogs.
    The common people are starved spiritually hoping for meager morsels of spiritual food from the rich man's table.
    However, those rich man spiritual privileges are now about to experience a BIG change.
    Both classes of people ( rich and common Lazarus) have a symbolic death.
    Jesus lets the rich-man class know they are finished ( verse 16)
    So, both classes ' die ' to their former circumstances or condition. At Pentecost was that great reversal for them.
    That ' great gulf ' thus separated the symbolic rich man from Jesus' common followers.
    This great change causes great torment to the rich-man class and his '5 brothers' aka his religious allies.
    Of course, the real father of the ' rich man ' is Satan with his religious allies such as the fake 'weed/tares' .
     
  16. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,942
    Ratings:
    +581
    Religion:
    Christian
    No one said they were real persons..
    The whole objective of the parable..is the great gulf fix..
    That when a person dies..they cross over into the great gulf fix...that once there..they can not cross back over to us nor can we which are alive cross over to them..

    As to how do you come by that the rich mans father as being Satan..
    When in fact Jesus Christ made no mentioning of Satan in whole conversation.
    In Luke 16..
    So how is it that you come by Satan.
    This is why people looks at the bible in the way they do.. because of people like yourself putting things into the Bible that are not there.

    Such as Luke 16..as there is no where Jesus Christ ever made any mentioning of Satan.
    Just you adding things that are not there.
     
    #76 Faithofchristian, Mar 13, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    15,295
    Ratings:
    +2,588
    Of course there is No mention of Satan at Luke 16:27.
    The rich man class of Luke 16:14 do Not have Jehovah as their Father but as Jesus said at John 8:44 the devil.
    So, the ' my father's house ' of verse 27 B is Not God's house.
    The ' five brothers ' are the rich man's 'religious allies' and Not real dead people. - Luke 9:60
     
  18. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    17,665
    Ratings:
    +8,733
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    There is nothing to do with science in the above only an extreme stretch to justify a religious agenda.

    The Bible is specific the earth existed and then 'Let there be light.' Light existed at the beginning of the universe. Light in our universe existed as long as the sun existed long before the existence of the earth. Your assertion 'there was no light on earth' is as bogus as a three dollar bill, and you have offered no scientific reference for this nor the bogus odd description of an 'organic haze' which has never been known to exist.

    The view point of the observer is descriptive of the earth as the center of the universe, and at the time the Aristotilian view of our universe.
     
  19. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4,919
    Ratings:
    +684
    Religion:
    None
    If you are on the moon you will see "Earth rise" and you are correct in saying
    the Earth is rising. Just as you are correct on Earth in saying the Moon is
    rising.
    1 - in dealing with people who don't understand nor need to understand orbit
    mechanics, this is fine.
    2 - in dealing with modern people it's also fine to say the moon and the sun
    rise each day.

    The Earth was dark "back then." We don't say "It's was dark, but if you went
    to 10,000 feet you could see the sun." Or "If you went to orbit you could see
    the sun."
    No, it was dark on the face of the waters, and THAT'S A FACT.

    The Earth was a cloud planet, just as Venus is a cloud planet. This is why
    there was such an interest in the Huygens probe on Titan - that moon is like
    an early Earth - dark, organic and sterile.

    The image I showed is not from some religious book. It's got a watermark on
    it, showing its from a science library.

    And, as Einstein pointed out, it's fine to say the Earth is the center of the universe.
     
  20. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    17,665
    Ratings:
    +8,733
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    ENRON bookkeeping does not get you the brass ring. What you described is the reason the Bible and virtually all ancient scriptures cannot interpreted in terms of the contemporary persepective.

    No that is not the a FACT and you have provide no objective evidence. Assertions do not work. In fact the evidence indicates that the earth was not shrouded as you describe. A Bible quote from an ancient perspective gets you nowhere. Please provide objective evidence for what you claim.

    Again, again and again there is no evidence of your claim.

    The image is a painting and does not remotely reflect science. It shows the ash from a volcano, so what? Ah . . . I see sunlight in the background. The tornado in dicates weather storms therefore sunlight.

    Einstein did not say that!

    Again, again and . . . ah again where are the scientific references?
     
Loading...