Frank Goad
Well-Known Member
Why in the old testament.And the new testament.Do they describe dying as giving up the ghost?Like in Gen.25:8.And Lk.23:46?In the kjv?
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Question for all jehovah's witnesses on here
- Thread starter Frank Goad
- Start date
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Let me ask. Why do you ask these questions? A lot of them can be found in the bible or on their site.
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
And you trust the KJV because........?
Frank Goad
Well-Known Member
Until I can fully become jw.I will stick to my kjv bible because that is the one I grew up with.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
74x12
Well-Known Member
Because the new world translation is a untrustworthy.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
If he wants to be JW, he should go to their source. Whether we agree or not shouldn't matter. It's his/her choice.
cataway
Well-Known Member
my self I find the KJV has so many mistakes in it . with many omissions that have blinded many to the truth ,and caused confusion . it uses old English ,with words we just don't use any more.
try the New King James
the NKJV reads "Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people."
NWTHS reads
Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, old and satisfied, and was gathered to his people.
try the New King James
the NKJV reads "Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people."
NWTHS reads
Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, old and satisfied, and was gathered to his people.
You have been told about this before Frank...the word "ghost" is not from the Bible. There is no such thing as a ghost. This is based on a German word "geist" which means spirit. The word "ghost" has connotations of the disembodied spirit of a dead person....something the Bible does not teach. It is also used with reference to God as if his spirit is a holy ghost....an entity rather than the exercise of God's power. The holy spirit is not a ghost.
To give up one's spirit is to breathe your last breath. No one gives up their ghost.
Frank, I used the KJV when I first studied the Bible but it was used in conjunction with the NWT during my study. That made it easy to compare translations and after a while the NWT was so easy to understand that I put my old KJV away. I don't speak archaic English and the Bible was not written in that language. The KJV is one of the worst for bias towards the trinity.
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
Some say that "gathered to his people" means that Abraham's ghost person went to heaven.
Others say Abraham's ghost went to hell because his people were idolaters.
Gen 15:15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers;
"behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; a phrase expressive of death, frequently used both of good and bad men, which serves to render death easy and familiar, and less formidable; and to assure and lead into an expectation of an awaking out of it, or a resurrection from it:"--John Gill
"Thou shalt sleep with thy fathers — Sleep is a common word for death, and, to those who believe a resurrection, has a peculiar propriety, to remind them that death shall not have dominion over them for ever, but that they shall awake as certainly as they fall asleep."--Joseph Benson
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
It says "Abraham DIED"!
It seems some people don't want to believe DEAD means DEAD. DEAD means NOT ALIVE.
They don't get it and never will.
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
Why do you suppose the JW's don't speak according to their own translation?
For example, they say that Jesus dematerialized as he ascended to heaven.
Their own translation says:
"After he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their sight" (Act 1:9)
Does that say that Jesus dematerialized, or does it say "a cloud caught him up from their sight".?
What it says is that they could not see him anymore as he went up because of the cloud. But the JW's say he dematerialized.
Yes, death is the opposite of life. Humans want to believe that they don't really die because it fits their 'programming'....God created them never to die and as Ecclesiastes 3:11says...
"He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has even put eternity in their heart; yet mankind will never find out the work that the true God has made from start to finish."
There was no natural cause of death in Eden....sin was the only thing that caused death. (Romans 5:12)
Since angels sent by God to bring messages to his servants on earth, materialized human form and dematerialized in order to return to heaven, the resurrected Jesus was a spirit, (1 Peter 3:18) not a man of flesh and blood who took back his sacrificed body. The man who spent three and a half years as his apostle's constant companion was no longer dwelling with them....so where did Jesus go after his resurrection?
For 40 days after he was raised from the dead, Jesus "appeared" to his disciples on different occasions in various fleshly bodies. Just like those angels, he had the power to construct and to disintegrate those fleshly bodies at will, for the purpose of proving visibly that he had been resurrected.
The account of two of Jesus' disciples walking on the road after his resurrection, and being approached by Jesus and asked what they were discussing, Luke 24:22-27 (NASB) they said....
"When they were at the tomb early in the morning, 23 and did not find His body, they came, saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said that He was alive. 24 Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just exactly as the women also had said; but Him they did not see.” 25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures."
But the next part of the passage clarified that Jesus was a materialized spirit....(Vs 28-31)
"And they approached the village where they were going, and He acted as though He were going farther. 29 But they urged Him, saying, “Stay with us, for it is getting toward evening, and the day is now nearly over.” So He went in to stay with them. 30 When He had reclined at the table with them, He took the bread and blessed it, and breaking it, He began giving it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight."
The Jews were forbidden to communicate with spirits, (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) so Jesus and angels materialized human flesh to speak with them....just as the angels appeared to Abraham at Mamre (Genesis 18) and to Manoah and his wife in Judges 13:3; 19-21.
Jesus' many appearances, and particularly his manifesting himself to more than 500 peolple at one time, provide strong testimony to the truth of his resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15:3-8) His resurrection, well witnessed, furnishes “a guarantee to all men” regarding the certainty of a future day of reckoning or judgment. (Acts 17:31)
The Bible explains itself....you just have to know what it says.
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LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
He who made the eye is greater than the eye. As is the case of the angel who made himself to be seen by Balaam's donkey and then made himself to be seen by Balaam.
Therefore the angel DID NOT materialize. He simply opened the eyes of the donkey first and then the eyes of Balaam so they could see him.
How then does that explain the rebel angels taking human form in Noah's day and taking wives for themselves and producing a hybrid breed of monstrous children, whom God wiped out in the flood? How human were they if they could produce children?
Jesus, after his resurrection asked Thomas to feel his wounds.....did Thomas have to open his eyes to see Jesus wounds? Did Jesus take back the body he sacrificed?....or did all the people he appeared to actually see him in a materialized body?
How does he "vanish" if he is flesh and blood?
Please give examples of where the NWT is untrustworthy.....
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
The rebel angels were mortal men. Nowhere does the text say they took on human form. What they took on was the name of God by being called "sons of God". (see the margin note on Gen 4:26)
The resurrected body of Jesus dies no more. It is the same body he now has and the same body he will come with.
Jesus "vanished" in the same way that the angel appeared to Balaam. Balaam's eyes were opened says the text..so that Balaam could see the angel.
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What marginal note?
It simply says..."There was also born to Seth a son, and he named him Eʹnosh. At that time people began calling on the name of Yahweh."
It is assumed that they began calling on God's name in a disrespectful or blasphemous way. But simply Adam's offspring "sons of God" is not what the Bible teaches. Adam is called a "son of God"....Jesus is called the son of God, and angels are called "sons of God"....but human descendants of Adam are not called "sons of God". Adam, Jesus and the angels are all direct creations of God.
Genesis 6:1....
"Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them,
that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose." (NASB)
The "sons of God" in this instance are referred to differently than the daughters of men. These were materialized angels. Their children were human but like no other humans in existence.....because they were not sons of Adam, and these powerful men had produced a hybrid race of violent bullies, (the Nephilim) who had no right to live....all they did was pull the human race down into the mire of their ungodly behavior. Why else would God destroy the whole of life outside the ark? By getting rid of all material things, he forced the angels to go back to the spirit realm or their human bodies would have drowned with the rest....there he dealt with them so that they could never materialize again. These are the "spirits in prison" visited by Jesus some time after his resurrection. (1 Peter 3:18-20)
Yes, a spirit body does not die of any natural cause. Jesus was given the same kind of body he had before he came to be born as a human.
I have no doubt that God can do that just as he can grant visions of heaven to his earthly servants...but it doesn't explain how a spirit can produce children? Why does God use a flood to destroy all life if these were just invisible spirits? Sorry it just doesn't add up.
You can believe that if you wish....but my belief explains those things so that they make sense...at least to me.
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
The margin notes of the KJV are there because alternate translations of a word or words is possible. Often times, as scholars have noted, the margin notes are to be preferred
The margin note says:
call upon the Name of the LORD:
Or, to call themselves by the Name of the LORD
"men began to call upon the name of the Lord — rather, by the name of the Lord. God’s people, a name probably applied to them in contempt by the world." JFB
יְהֹוָה בְּשֵׁם קָרָא, literally to call in (or by) the name of Jehovah -- Keil and Delitzsch
"The marginal reading is, Then began men to call themselves by the name of the Lord; which words are supposed to signify that in the time of Enos the true followers of God began to distinguish themselves, and to be distinguished by others, by the appellation of sons of God; those of the other branch of Adam’s family, among whom the Divine worship was not observed, being distinguished by the name, children of men." - Adam Clarke
The LXX translates it as: "And Seth had a son, and he called his name Enos: he hoped to call on the name of the Lord God. "
Some translations use the word "profane" as does the ISV: "Seth also fathered a son, whom he named Enosh. At that time, profaning the name of the LORD began. "
It is therefore quite possible that the "sons of God" mentioned in Gen 6 refer to the men who had taken upon themselves God's name as opposed to those who did not.
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LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
There are also other text which make it clear that those "sons of God" were indeed men.
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
"Arabic writers (y) say, that after Enoch was taken away, the children of Seth and of Cain worshipped idols, everyone as he pleased, and were immersed in wickedness, and gave their right hands to each other, and joined in fellowship in committing sin and vice; and that in the times of Noah, none were left in the holy mount but he and his wife, and his three sons and their wives; all went down below and mixed with the daughters of Cain, and were immersed in sins, and worshipped strange gods, and so the earth was corrupted and filled with lasciviousness"- John Gill.
It seems very clear to me that there were two types of people in those days just as there has always been. There were those who were following the WAY of God and those who were not. The danger began when those following the Way decided to mingle with those who were not. And the result was that all flesh had then corrupted God's Way by joining themselves with the beautiful women of men who would lead them into all sorts of wickedness.
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
"Arabic writers (y) say, that after Enoch was taken away, the children of Seth and of Cain worshipped idols, everyone as he pleased, and were immersed in wickedness, and gave their right hands to each other, and joined in fellowship in committing sin and vice; and that in the times of Noah, none were left in the holy mount but he and his wife, and his three sons and their wives; all went down below and mixed with the daughters of Cain, and were immersed in sins, and worshipped strange gods, and so the earth was corrupted and filled with lasciviousness"- John Gill.
It seems very clear to me that there were two types of people in those days just as there has always been. There were those who were following the WAY of God and those who were not. The danger began when those following the Way decided to mingle with those who were not. And the result was that all flesh had then corrupted God's Way by joining themselves with the beautiful women of men who would lead them into all sorts of wickedness.