Frank Goad
Well-Known Member
How did the devil first get the idea to rebel against Jehovah?
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Question for all jehovah's witnesses on here
- Thread starter Frank Goad
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LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
According to JW's, Satan was created as an immaterial angel before the creation spoken of in Genesis 1. He was full of lust insomuch that he desired to be a rival of God and have his own organization of men and women.How did the devil first get the idea to rebel against Jehovah?
That’s a good question.
He was created perfect, but he **probably** saw the adoration Jehovah was getting, and wanted it for himself.
I say “probably” , because the Bible doesn’t tell us. In fact, Jehovah tells us very little about the Devil’s (and demon’s) activities, because God doesn’t want to give them any more “published attention” than is necessary. (We see the same kind of action taken by Law enforcement toward criminals, telling people what they need to know, but not giving the criminals their “15 minutes of fame”, as it were.)
Since all of Jehovah’s intelligent creation are endowed w/ the ability to make their own choices, either good or bad. Satan, dwelling on wrong thoughts, acted on them. James 1:13-15
He was created perfect, but he **probably** saw the adoration Jehovah was getting, and wanted it for himself.
I say “probably” , because the Bible doesn’t tell us. In fact, Jehovah tells us very little about the Devil’s (and demon’s) activities, because God doesn’t want to give them any more “published attention” than is necessary. (We see the same kind of action taken by Law enforcement toward criminals, telling people what they need to know, but not giving the criminals their “15 minutes of fame”, as it were.)
Since all of Jehovah’s intelligent creation are endowed w/ the ability to make their own choices, either good or bad. Satan, dwelling on wrong thoughts, acted on them. James 1:13-15
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
According to the Scripture, the law is made weak by the flesh, not by endowing intelligent creatures with "free will".
"Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit." Rom 8:5
"For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want." Gal 5:17
According to Scripture, people make choices according to their fleshly desires and not by having "free will".
Adam's choice to eat of the fruit was made by his flesh not by "free will".
Paul says that when he does what he wills not to do it is SIN dwelling in his flesh that is making the choice. The sin in his flesh, which is the lust of the flesh. Walking according to the desires of the flesh is to serve the sin or lust in the flesh.
Hang on...this thread is about satan's rebellion, not Adam's. The devil had no flesh to be weak.
Your scriptures apply to humans not angels.
Think about what it meant if a spirit creature rebelled....? Doesn't that mean that he had free will? How else could he oppose God? He wanted to "become like God" which is what he told the woman...but it was really about himself. He had no one of lesser station than himself to treat him as a god...until humans were created. Then he saw his chance to receive what he craved.....disobedience undid them all.
This does not apply to the devil.
Ezekiel 28:12-17, in an address to the King of Tyre, God made specific mention of the devil's traits as applying to him...
“You were the model of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eʹden, the garden of God.
You were adorned with every precious stone. . . .
14 I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub.
You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones.
15 You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you. . . . .
You became filled with violence, and you began to sin.
So I will cast you out as profane from the mountain of God and destroy you,
O covering cherub, away from the stones of fire.
17 Your heart became haughty because of your beauty.
You corrupted your wisdom because of your own glorious splendor.
I will throw you down to the earth.
I will make you a spectacle before kings."
Unless the Kings of Tyre was a 'covering Cherub in the Garden of Eden', then this is a description of what overcame the devil....its all about abuse of free will.
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
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Did the serpent have free will? Did Satan cause the serpent to speak? Was Satan responsible for what the serpent said?
Why does God punish the serpent rather than Satan?
Revelation 12 says that the Red Dragon, who is identified as Satan, was the original serpent. The original serpent was not a spirit creature but a beast of the field who was more crafty than the other beasts.
The prophecy of Ezekiel (a latter day prophet) speaks of the same MAN as Paul whom he calls "the man of sin".
The man of sin is yet to be revealed. He will be thrown down from his lofty (heaven) position to the earth where he will be made a spectacle before kings
The Jw's teach that the serpent was employed by Satan to communicate to the woman. However, the Scripture teaches that the serpent itself was more skillful or intelligent than any other beast of the field. And it was not Satan but the serpent who was punished for what he did.
Did the serpent have free will? Did Satan cause the serpent to speak? Was Satan responsible for what the serpent said?
Why does God punish the serpent rather than Satan?
Revelation 12 says that the Red Dragon, who is identified as Satan, was the original serpent. The original serpent was not a spirit creature but a beast of the field who was more crafty than the other beasts.
The prophecy of Ezekiel (a latter day prophet) speaks of the same MAN as Paul whom he calls "the man of sin".
The man of sin is yet to be revealed. He will be thrown down from his lofty (heaven) position to the earth where he will be made a spectacle before kings
JW's teach that the serpent is identified as satan. Since spirit creatures can materialize in any form they choose, I don't believe that it would have been difficult for satan to present himself to the woman as a talking serpent....or to surreptitiously use a serpent to plant seeds of doubt in the mind of the woman....who was a fairly new resident of the garden. He approached her when she was alone.
Since satan was an appointed "Cherub" (an angel of high rank) in the garden of Eden, he was right there observing all that was going on.....he knew just when it was the right time to have his 'conversation' with her.
There are four words in Hebrew that are translated "snake" or "serpent".....na·chashʹ, tan·ninʹ, tseʹphaʽ, tsiph·ʽoh·niʹ
Na·chashʹ is evidently a generic, or general, term applying to all snakes or serpentlike creatures, and it is often used along with other Hebrew words that denote a particular kind of snake.
The Greek oʹphis, is also generic. While many snakes in Israel today are of the nonvenomous types, Biblical references to snakes are mainly with regard to those that are dangerous or venomous. This makes them good for symbolic reference.....most people are afraid of snakes.
I don't think that the word used to describe the devil (`aruwm) means either "skillful or intelligent".
According to Strongs.....it means cautious....
- "subtle, shrewd, crafty, sly, sensible
- crafty
- shrewd, sensible, prudent"
- crafty
Since literal snakes don't talk, I would think it sensible to assume that satan used the snake as a decoy.
The worst that happened to literal snakes is their mode of transport and the fact that they appear to eat dust ...(which we know they don't).
Revelation 12 actually sees the dragon (who is identified as the original serpent in Eden) hurled down to the earth, as was also mentioned in Ezekiel 28:17.
In Revelation 20:20 the dragon is bound and imprisoned for 1,000 years. That is punishing the dragon...no?
This is not a literal physical creature but satan the devil who is thrown into an abyss so that the rule of God's Kingdom over this earth can accomplish all that God sent it to do in bringing redeemed humanity back into an acceptable state, in order to stand in perfection before their Creator (as Adam and his wife once did before they introduced sin into the world.)
No literal snake can live for 1,000 years.
If that is the case then nothing in Revelation makes any sense. Satan used the serpent....and it can safely be said that a dragon is serpentine in nature.....satan is the original serpent who is punished
The dirge made regarding the King of Tyre is a clear reference to satan the devil. The King of Tyre was never a cherub in the Garden of Eden.
I will need some scriptural reference before I address that one....who is this "man of sin" who is thrown down from a heavenly position?
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
Of course, you have no Scriptural proof that Satan materializes in any form he chooses.
According to Paul, when men walk according to the dictates/desires of their flesh, they are serving the God of this world. He says that the works of the flesh are manifest:
"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21
Therefore, the God of this world is a personification of the lust of the flesh whom men serve by following the dictates of the flesh.
This too is evident in the garden when Eve desired the fruit because it was good for food, pleasent to the eye and desired to make one wise.
Jesus says the same things as Paul:
"But Jesus replied, “Every plant that My Heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by its roots. Disregard them! They are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.Peter said to Him, “Explain this parable to us.Do you still not understand?” Jesus asked. Do you not yet realize that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then is eliminated? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these things defile a man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, and slander. These are what defile a man, but eating with unwashed hands does not defile him." Matthew 15.
And Jeremiah too:
The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately wicked;
who can understand it? Jer 17:9
Now, if the heart of man (the very core of his being) is deceitful and sick, then there is no need of the imaginary Devil the Jw's speak of.
Oh, now I get it......nothing works better for "the adversary" than believing that he doesn't exist. It's genius.
So those references to satan taking his station before God among his other "sons" in the case of Job was just talking about Job's inner struggle....and it killed all his children and robbed him of all his possessions....and even took him physically to the brink of death? Really?
Jesus evicting satan from heaven in Revelation, resulting in unprecedented "woe for the earth", is just talking about man's inner flaws? Does that mean that lustful human flesh resided in heaven?
Are angels real then? Who was Gabriel?
Why would God deliberately create humans in his image with a flaw in their character that would lead to all the tragedies that have transpired since man's defection in Eden?
What kind of a sadistic monster would God have to be to do that on purpose? Seriously?
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
T
"We may say that one of the greatest victories that the devil ever achieved over the children of men was when he deceived them and led them to believe that he himself was a person separate and apart from the human family and that his powerful influences over the children of men for evil come chiefly from without. This doctrine of the Devil has taken like wild fire among the children of men for it is so very convenient and natural for the children of disobedience to lay the cause of their wrongdoing and their evil deeds upon some one else than themselves. Adam said 'The woman whom thou gavest to be with me she gave me of the fruit of the tree and I did eat' which was as much as to say You are partly to blame for it yourself If you had not given me this woman to persuade me I might have got along well enough. Moreover, Eve was just as ready as Adam to excuse herself saying 'The serpent beguiled me and I did eat'. Therefore from the creation it has been the most natural thing in the world for evil doers to excuse themselves and lay the blame of their wicked works upon some one else. Therefore, it is that this imaginary Devil is a most convenient character upon whom mankind delight to lay the blame of their own misdeeds. But unfortunately this false doctrine makes Christ and his apostles liars for Jesus said There is nothing from without a man entering into him that can defile him but the things which come out of him those are they that defile the man. For from within, out of the heart of men proceeds this long list of evil things which defile the man, and the apostle James saith 1:14 Every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed.Therefore the lusts of the flesh and the Devil are interchangeable terms meaning the same thing. But nevertheless the Devil has had in the past and has now throughout the earth tens and hundreds of thousands of ministers preaching his doctrine deceiving the children of men and being themselves deceived"--Levi Rightmyer
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YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Revelation identifies the Devil as the original serpent. But you probably knew that, didn't you? Revelation 12:9 - "this great dragon—the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world—was thrown down to the earth with all his angels."
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 2:14 says that by Jesus' death, he destroyed the devil.
So why is it the devil still existed after Jesus death and still today?
It's because the devil is the sinful flesh. And when Jesus offered his flesh (the same flesh as the rest of us) he destroyed the devil in his own flesh but not in our flesh.
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
In reading over JW's literature, I can't seem to find any acknowledgement of how Paul personifies sin or the flesh.
Paul says "the wages of sin is death". Now, Hebrews 2:14 says that the devil has the power of death but was destroyed by Jesus' death.
Paul also says that sin entered the world by Adam and death by sin.so death passed to all because all have sinned(in Adam).
So, just as sin is personified as a Master.when men walk after the dictates of their own lustful flesh. The sin or lust in the flesh is also personified as the devil, having the power of death.
Paul says "the wages of sin is death". Now, Hebrews 2:14 says that the devil has the power of death but was destroyed by Jesus' death.
Paul also says that sin entered the world by Adam and death by sin.so death passed to all because all have sinned(in Adam).
So, just as sin is personified as a Master.when men walk after the dictates of their own lustful flesh. The sin or lust in the flesh is also personified as the devil, having the power of death.
I noticed that you dodged the important questions in favour of quoting someone I’ve never heard of......?
How do you answer these....?
Isaiah 45: 6-7
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
If God created evil then Satan did not make a choice at all, he did exactly what he was created to do.
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
If God created evil then Satan did not make a choice at all, he did exactly what he was created to do.
God did not create satan...just as a parent does not create a thief or a murderer. Children with free will end up doing what they want when they become adults....satan was once a faithful angel...he abused his free will and influenced humans to do it too.....now he has an army of servants who do his bidding. He is the god and ruler of this world. (1 John 5:19)
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
I posted that quote from Levi Rightmyer because you claimed that I am saying the devil does not exist. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that your imaginary devil does not exist.
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
Your talk of "free will" is bogus. You use that idea as a way to explain away the truth that Adam's flesh was the same flesh both before and after he sinned. And Paul says that when he does what he wills not to do it is no longer he that does it but sin dwelling in his flesh. He says of himself "Oh wretched man that I am". He also says that the law is made weak by the flesh, not by "free will".
The JW"S totally miss how Paul personifies sin and the flesh. It's no wonder they are astray.
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
The Scripture shows a long list of evils that men do. And Paul says that they are the works of the flesh, not of "free will".
Until you learn to speak as Scripture does you will remained deceived.
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
The devil exists, but your imaginary one does not.
In Job, the Satan(mortal men) was the adversary acting through the men who came with the sons of God (mortal men) to worship God.
The same can be seen in the New Testament when it speaks of the Tares growing among the Wheat.
You see, not only is the Devil within each of us, He is at work in others. For example, Judas was one of the apostles who went around with the other apostles, but Jesus called him a devil.
The heaven spoken of in Revelation that the Red Dragon is thrown down from, is the heaven on earth. In Scripture, heaven and earth are used figuratively to speak of those in positions of high places of authority(heaven) and those who are merely common folk(earth).
God's angels in heaven are real and they don't sin.
If you read Paul, he calls Adam the natural man made of dust(earthy). Adam was the natural man from the time he was created. He was flesh and blood, and flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God because it is sinful. Adam was "very good" as far as the natural goes. He was not immortal as those who are to be born of the Spirit become.
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