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Question concerning authoritive baptism

Polaris

Active Member
This question is for both RCC and EOC members. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that you recognize certain baptisms performed by other denominations. For example if a baptised Methodist converts to Catholicism he does not need to be baptised by a Catholic priest. Is that correct?

If that's correct, why is that the case? Do you not believe that baptism must be performed by someone with proper authority?
 
As far as I'm aware a baptism is valid if it's performed by a Trinitarian, Nicene-believing church. Could be wrong though, I need to double check that.
 

Polaris

Active Member
FerventGodSeeker said:
As far as I'm aware a baptism is valid if it's performed by a Trinitarian, Nicene-believing church. Could be wrong though, I need to double check that.

So does that mean that proper authority by the baptising priest is not necessasary, or that ALL trinitarian, nicene-believing priests have proper authority?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Polaris said:
So does that mean that proper authority by the baptising priest is not necessasary, or that ALL trinitarian, nicene-believing priests have proper authority?
It kind of makes me wonder if all baptisms prior to 325 A.D. were invalid. ;)
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
Since I am a Catholic Theology student I will gladly respond to this to shed some light on it.

Three things must be correct for a Baptism or any sacrament to be valid in the Catholic understanding.

1) Correct Matter.(Real water must be used, and not coolaide or soda or anything like that.)

2) Correct form. You must say the correct thing. (I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.) No baptisms are valid unless the trinitarian formula is invoked.

3) Correct intention. When you baptize you must intend in your heart and mind to baptize them into the Holy Trinity as understood and explained historically by Christians in the early Councils.

Mormons do 2 out of three of these. But because they do not intend to baptize the inidiviual into the historical understanding of the Blessed Trinity, there baptisms are invalid and not real sacraments in our view.

The protestants(Most of them) baptism meets all 3 of our qualifications in our understasdning therefore their baptisms are valid and sacramental and they are united to us as Christians in the church under therer common baptism. So no rebaptism is necessary for them.

Our Big problem with this with mormons is thier understwdning of the Nature of God, or who God really is and what he is. Anyone can claim to be baptized, but If we are going to have valid baptism into God and his Church then we want to be baptized correctly into the right God as the early Christians understood.

I hope that helps.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Thanks, Athanasius. I think that still leaves both Polaris and me wondering, though, why with these requirements, correct authority is not also deemed necessary. Does this "flexibility" apply to the other sacraments, or only to baptism? In other words, may anyone hear confessions, perform marriages or last rites? If these sacraments require the correct authority, why not baptism, too?
 

Polaris

Active Member
athanasius said:
Since I am a Catholic Theology student I will gladly respond to this to shed some light on it.

Three things must be correct for a Baptism or any sacrament to be valid in the Catholic understanding.

1) Correct Matter.(Real water must be used, and not coolaide or soda or anything like that.)

2) Correct form. You must say the correct thing. (I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.) No baptisms are valid unless the trinitarian formula is invoked.

3) Correct intention. When you baptize you must intend in your heart and mind to baptize them into the Holy Trinity as understood and explained historically by Christians in the early Councils.

Mormons do 2 out of three of these. But because they do not intend to baptize the inidiviual into the historical understanding of the Blessed Trinity, there baptisms are invalid and not real sacraments in our view.

The protestants(Most of them) baptism meets all 3 of our qualifications in our understasdning therefore their baptisms are valid and sacramental and they are united to us as Christians in the church under therer common baptism. So no rebaptism is necessary for them.

Our Big problem with this with mormons is thier understwdning of the Nature of God, or who God really is and what he is. Anyone can claim to be baptized, but If we are going to have valid baptism into God and his Church then we want to be baptized correctly into the right God as the early Christians understood.

I hope that helps.

So if I understand correctly, pretty much anyone can perform a baptism as long as they hold the correct belief in the Trinity?

Can women then perform baptisms?

Can excommunicated Catholics perform baptisms (as long as they believe in the Trinity)?

Can my next door neighbor who belongs to no church, but believes in the Trinity perform a valid baptism?
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
Good question Katzpur! Ok, A Priest or deacon should normally have the authority to baptize unless there is emergency and no priest are to be found, then anyone can baptise in emengency if they meet the 3 requirements.

In the Case of confession and Eucharist, and last rights since these sacraments are very tied to new testament priesthood and apostolic succession in the bible, only a valid priest or bishop can perform these.

In the Case of Weddings Deacons or Priest are the ordinary ministers but because the sacrament of marriage itself is performed by the couple and not the priest(The priest or deacon is only a witness) then other ministers may be the witness(Like non-Catholic Clergy). But a dispensation from form from the bishop must be present and or priest must be present at the service(Not doing the ceremony but as witness for the church) for the marriage to be valid in the eyes of the church.

I hope that helps.

God bless

Athanasius
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
Polaris said:
So if I understand correctly, pretty much anyone can perform a baptism as long as they hold the correct belief in the Trinity?

Can women then perform baptisms?

Can excommunicated Catholics perform baptisms (as long as they believe in the Trinity)?

Can my next door neighbor who belongs to no church, but believes in the Trinity perform a valid baptism?


Yes in case of emergency they all can. But I would also after word if the child lives, I would do a conditional baptism with a priest or deacon just to be safe.
 

Polaris

Active Member
athanasius said:
Yes in case of emergency they all can. But I would also after word if the child lives, I would do a conditional baptism with a priest or deacon just to be safe.

What constitues an emergency?
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
Katzpur said:
Thanks, Athanasius. I think that still leaves both Polaris and me wondering, though, why with these requirements, correct authority is not also deemed necessary. Does this "flexibility" apply to the other sacraments, or only to baptism? In other words, may anyone hear confessions, perform marriages or last rites? If these sacraments require the correct authority, why not baptism, too?


I believe(Though I could be wrong but htis is my theological hunch) that Baptism is given more flexibiblity because it is tied directly to salvation(1 Pet 3:21, Titus 3:5-7, Jn 3:3-5) and We want all to be saved and because it is not as directly tied to priesthood in the new testmant or the oral tradition of the apostles as the other sacraments are. So the church by her authority has pretty much always even since the early church allowed baptism to be performed by anyone in case of emegency.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Thank you Athanasius. I appreciate your answers. I do have more questions, but they would probably be more appropriate for a debate forum.
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
Katzpur said:
Thank you Athanasius. I appreciate your answers. I do have more questions, but they would probably be more appropriate for a debate forum.

Your welcome my friend. Anytime.

God bless you Katzpur

In Jesus the King of the universe through Mary the Queen Mother of heaven

Athanasius
 

Polaris

Active Member
athanasius said:
Death or near death and no priest around.

So does that mean that someone who is about to die and has never been baptised and is surrounded only by Mormons is simply out of luck. Is there any hope for salvation for that individual?
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
Polaris said:
So does that mean that someone who is about to die and has never been baptised and is surrounded only by Mormons is simply out of luck. Is there any hope for salvation for that individual?


Yes we do hope for the salvation of that inidivual and put our trust in God. God is not limited by his own sacraments. The sacrments are the "ordinary" means of grace adn so we do them for 100% assurance and obedience. We trust that God would allow and be merciful to the baby. The Baby could never go to hell because he has no mortal sin on his or her soul. But yes a we beleive that a mormon baptism wouldn't be of any help. Sorry I know that sounds harsh.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Polaris said:
This question is for both RCC and EOC members. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that you recognize certain baptisms performed by other denominations. For example if a baptised Methodist converts to Catholicism he does not need to be baptised by a Catholic priest. Is that correct?

I was baptized in a Calvinist (Reformed) denomination, and since one of our weddings was in a Roman Catholic church, and I'm a Baha'i, we had to get a dispensation from the local bishop. My having been baptized in a way the RCC recognized made getting the dispensation easier.

From what Fr. Ken explained, it was not so much who's in authority, as that the proper formula be followed. Since Calvinists view the nature of God in the same way the RCC does, they follow the same baptismal formula, so they recognize those baptisms.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
athanasius said:
3) Correct intention. When you baptize you must intend in your heart and mind to baptize them into the Holy Trinity as understood and explained historically by Christians in the early Councils.

Thanks, Athanasius, this clarified something for me. I couldn't quite figure out how my infant baptism did much, considering I didn't exactly consent to it. But I'm sure my parents had the intention you specify, so that explains it.
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
Booko said:
Thanks, Athanasius, this clarified something for me. I couldn't quite figure out how my infant baptism did much, considering I didn't exactly consent to it. But I'm sure my parents had the intention you specify, so that explains it.


Awesome. I'm glad I could help. God's grace is a awesome free gift that he pours on our heads in baptism, even as infants.
 
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