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Featured Question about Saul and the witch of endor

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Frank Goad, Jun 1, 2021.

  1. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    Why do some people believe that this was a demon?When it says it was Samuel talking to Saul in 1 Samuel 28:15?:confused: This shows Saul might have believed mediums could really raise the dead.But here I think God intervened because of 1 Samuel 28:12.:)
     
    #1 Frank Goad, Jun 1, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2021
  2. Tzephanyahu

    Tzephanyahu Member

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    Hi @Frank Goad

    No, I believe that the witch did raise Samuel from Sheol. The Scripture confirms it plainly and if it were an unclean spirit it would have said so and wouldn't have prophesied the truth.

    When it comes to mediums today, and other paranormal activity, I think only 3% of all cases and claims are legit. The rest are misunderstandings and manipulations and most witchcraft today is just a puppet show and chemistry. But there is a dark ability hidden out there. Why else would Yahweh say that witches will face doom if it were all smoke and mirrors.

    Peace
     
  3. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Some people say that about Samuel in the itch of Endor or they would be forced to re-evaluate their other beliefs about about the dead going our of existence, humans not having a spirit/soul that lives on after death, sheol/hades being only the grave/pit. Doctrines can be like a house of cards and when one is removed the whole house can fall over.
    This would also mean they would have to re-evaluate their teachers.
    Re-evaluating their teachers could mean expulsion from the group they are in and could have a devastating impact on their lives in more ways than one.
    But I guess they could always repent of seeing that it was Samuel in the story and then they might be readmitted to the group as long as they did not rock the doctrinal boat.
     
  4. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    What do you make of 1 Samuel 28:12?
     
  5. Tzephanyahu

    Tzephanyahu Member

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    Thanks for asking. I see three possibilities.

    The first possibility is that she just called the name, perhaps like "...Samuel whom this man seeks". Then when she saw it was Samuel the prophet she put two and two together.

    The second possibility is that she knew who she was calling forth and perhaps Samuel showed that he recognised Saul when he appeared.

    The third that Saul immediately removed his disguise upon Samuel being raised so that he could be recognised, in his logic.

    I favour the first possibility personally but who knows.

    If you meant you wondered why was she freaking out - it is because Saul had outlawed all witches by pain of death.

    Peace.
     
  6. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    This is the Q&A forum, so I am not debating.... just asking a few questions.
    Was Samuel alive or dead, and did the witch have power to raise the dead, or just summons the living dead (not sure what you call them)?
     
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  7. Tzephanyahu

    Tzephanyahu Member

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    Hi @nPeace

    So Samuel was dead by our realm's reckoning.

    When we die our soul goes deep into the heart of the earth into a place called Sheol (Hades in Greek). Sheol is divided into different sections depending on the life you led but all will be resurrected from Sheol one day, the good and the bad. Some will be "born again" into eternal bodies and others raised in corrupted form to face their final judgement.

    It seems that the witch at Endor had a way to conjure the souls from out of Sheol. How? I don't know. But this wasn't an illusion or party trick. Perhaps this came by knowledge of the Watchers when they came to teach men dark forbidden arts, as mentioned in Genesis 6:4 and expounded upon in the Book of Enoch.

    Peace.
     
  8. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Okay thanks.
    So you don't only use the Bible for your beliefs? I ask because I don't recall reading what you mentioned in the Bible. Do you use the apocryphal books and mix the two, or is there another source you use?

    If the soul goes into Sheol after death though, does it do so on its own? What I mean, is it a living thing, able to think, and go where it wants... It's not dead, but alive?
    If the Witch is able to call it, does it come on its own free will, or is it powerless to the summons of a medium?
     
  9. Tzephanyahu

    Tzephanyahu Member

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    Hey @nPeace

    Sheol is mentioned throughout the Bible. It's often translated into English poorly as "the grave" or even as "hell" in the KJV. Yeshua even speaks about Sheol in quite some detail in Luke 16:19-31, but the mainstream church seems to refuse to acknowledge it.

    Yes, I also read the other books that were removed from the Bible. Namely those that were found with the Dead Sea Scrolls and still in the canon of the Ethiopians. Not all extra books are inspired but I believe a significant amount are.

    Now, as for your questions on Sheol... We are taken there upon death by an angel. (Whether that's our own angel or one specifically for that task, I don't know.). We lose our spirit and flesh upon death but not our soul, which is who we are, our thoughts, emotions and memories. Our soul descends into Sheol, as guided, and we'll still be very much consciously aware there - for better or for worse.

    As for the witch summoning it. I honestly have no idea. It's such a strange event. Does she have the power to summon him up from Sheol? Perhaps. Isaiah 28:15 makes a mysteriously allusion to some making a pact with Sheol and death. This could go back to the forbidden knowledge taught by the Watchers.

    A second option is that the witch is opening a portal into Sheol which Samuel sees through. So not necessarily summoning up but rather looking within.

    A third option, which is worthy of consideration, is perhaps Yahweh did it. He may have allowed Samuel to be summoned to prophesy to Saul. This may have explained why the witch freaked out. She may have been very use to acting like the dead was speaking through her - but then when Samuel actually appeared, she freaks out!

    I hope something in that ramble is helpful in some way :S

    Peace.
     
  10. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Sometimes people start with conclusions, and then read their conclusions into the text. In the case you are mentioning, people start with the conclusion that the dead cannot communicate with the living. If THAT is the case, then you must ask, who was it that Saul and the witch were talking to if not some other kind of spirit?

    But if on the other hand you don't start with some other conclusion, then you simply read the passage for what it says -- that they were talking to Samuel.
     
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  11. Bree

    Bree Active Member

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    Its a similar senario to the snake in the garden of eden.

    We know that snakes do not talk, so someone other then the snake was talking. It is revealed in the christian scriptures that the wicked angel Satan was the one speaking thru the snake.

    With regard to the Witch of Endor and Samuel, we do not assume that the dead can rise in spirit form because the scriptures tell us that the 'dead know nothing at all' in Ecclesiastes. So its not possible to raise someone who has died from the grave therefore it must have been a similar situation to the snake in Eden....a wicked spirit was making it appear as though Samuel had risen from the dead.
     
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  12. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Rambling? Sure. Ramble on, my friend.
    I hope you will patiently allow me to encourage more of your ramblings. :)

    You referred to Luke 16:19-31, but you said, the soul is taken to Sheol by an angel. Where can I find this, or is that an idea that you formulated?

    If the soul is, as you said, our thoughts, emotions and memories, how is it, the soul has eyes, and a mouth, i suppose, that it can speak? "In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away... So he called to him."
    This does not seem any different to a living being. Is that not a really strange concept?

    If the soul has to be guided to Sheol, as you said, then it has to be guided out, also... Isn't that so?
    How can the witch - a human - guide the soul out of Sheol? Can another human guide all the souls out of Sheol?
    The witch said she saw Samuel, so that would mean she could also see into Sheol. Can we?

    It seems you are guessing though. So would it be correct to say, these are concepts or ideas that you, or someone else has, but not that there are "taught", or expressed in the Bible... Just things that you figure, as you are trying to understand the Bible?
     
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  13. Tzephanyahu

    Tzephanyahu Member

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    Hi @nPeace

    I'm not sure where I have gathered a lot of the information on Sheol as it's spread throughout the Bible and several removed books - namely, 2 Esdras, 1 Enoch, Jubilees and I believe and handful of others. 2 Esdras and 1 Enoch have the most information on Sheol though so they would be great areas of investigation for you if you are interested.

    I don't believe I have formulated any ideas of myself. I may have remembered them slightly inaccurately but I'm certainly not one for making stuff up or giving my own created sumation. What's the point? The truth is the most important thing, not what I think.

    Now, as for the torment that the Rich Man felt and being able to see Lazarus in peace, consider the follow passages about Sheol which describe the divisions and how the "punished" side can see the "blessed" side (referred to as Abraham's Bosom by the Messiah). In 1 Enoch 22 and 2 Esdras 7:75-101.

    As for the soul being guided to and fro, yes I'm not sure how this works to be honest. I can't remember anything in all that I have read about someone being summoned out of Sheol by another human. Such things can only happen by the will of Yahweh I would think, hence why I proposed that possibility in my last post of the Creator allowing it to happen at Endor for the possibly fraudulent necromancer.

    Now you asked if we can see into Sheol. I don't think we can. It may be possible by a gift of Yahweh but not just willy nilly. Theoretically, as Sheol is a real physical place, we could dig into there (consider Amos 9:2). But then also consider that we cannot dig deeper than 8 miles into the Earth! However, in my previous post I gave you a quote from Isaiah which hinted at the fact that the corrupt Jewish Leadership in Jerusalem (before the Babylonia Exile) made a pact with Sheol. So who knows. Perhaps the Watchers taught the people ways to do this and this teaching survived in the dark arts until that time at Endor and before Jerusalem fall.

    You also wondered if I'm guessing. I'm just sharing what I've learned. I think I have been very clear with things that I'm theorising on by saying "perhaps..." and "maybe..." around such statements. But what I have shared about Sheol - it's construct, rules, descriptions etc, is not guess work or things I have been taught by men. Rather they are found in Scripture and in the removed books.

    Peace.
     
  14. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Thank you.
    That makes everything clear.
    I took note that you quoted from or referenced the apocryphal as the source of your information
    I do not read those.

    Going by what the 66 books say, the Law, Prophets, and Psalms - which Jesus and his apostles referenced - do not teach the things you accept, but rather they contradict.
    However, I understand that we all must decide for ourselves what we believe, so I respect that you have your view.

    However, would you agree that what you say about the soul, is not so taught in the 33 books of the Septuagint, and so, if anyone does not include the "excluded" books, they cannot demonstrate that the Law, Prophets, and Psalms, or Writings teaches the things you mentioned?

    PS @Tzephanyahu you haven't explained how your thoughts, memories etc., allow you to see, and speak, if you are not a living being. Or is the soul a living being?
     
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  15. Tzephanyahu

    Tzephanyahu Member

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    Really? I'd be interested to hear your citations for these contradictions?

    Do you mean what I'm saying about the soul being the seat of the emotions? That is a well-established definition, if you look into word studies on the original Hebrew word Nephesh.

    If you would like to study more on the three divisions of man, which is basar (flesh), nephesh (soul) and ruach (spirit), I recommend Christian author Watchman Nee’s book "the spiritual man".

    However, if you have found a contrary definition in the Canon pertaining to the soul, do share as I'm always learning.

    Good question. Maybe this analogy will help...

    You put on the latest virtual reality headset and suit. You see a world and yourself as an avatar and can hear and feel the environment. However, when you remove the headset and suit then your avatar is effectively dead yet your eyesight, hearing and touch is not diminished. You are just in a different realm and form of reality, percieving different things.

    So it with us (I believe). You look through your eyes and hear through your ears etc, in order to interact with this realm. But once your "earth suit" has perished you'll still continue to percieve outside of it.

    I dunno, I'm not like an expert in these things or anything. But maybe that gives you some ideas to work with.

    Peace
     
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  16. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    First, let me correct an error I made. I should have said, the 33 books, referring to the early Hebrew Canon.

    What contradictions exists with the apocryphal writings?
    I decided to put that in a separate thread. See here.

    There is so much more, but rather than pointing out all the problems with the apocryphal books, I will just say, they are evidently later additions. Jesus and his apostles do not refer to them, but refer only to the Law, Prophets, and Psalms (Writings).
    From what I understand, they do not claim to be inspired. Nor do they honor and glorify the creator, as author.

    It's no wonder these books were rejected from the Greek Canon, and it's no surprise that the Catholic Church accepts them. The apostasy spoken of by the apostles took root there.
    I must thank you though, for asking to be shown the contradictions. I never did look at these books. I just looked at references on them, but looking at them for myself, I see these books as a great work of Satan, which does a great deal of injustice for the early Christians, and the Greek writings of the early Canon. The additions to the early Hebrew Canon, show a similar pattern, imo.

    Getting back to the soul though...
    Do you believe in the torment of the soul in hell?
    If the soul is, as you said earlier, do you accept the following?

    The Acts of Thomas
    56 And he took me unto another pit, and I stooped and looked and saw mire and worms welling up, and souls wallowing there, and a great gnashing of teeth was heard thence from them. And that man said unto me: These are the souls of women which forsook their husbands and committed adultery with others, and are brought into this torment. Another pit he showed me whereinto I stooped and looked and saw souls hanging, some by the tongue, some by the hair, some by the hands, and some head downward by the feet, and tormented (smoked) with smoke and brimstone; concerning whom that man that was with me answered me: The souls which are hanged by the tongue are slanderers, that uttered Lying and shameful words, and were not ashamed, and they that are hanged by the hair are unblushing ones which had no modesty and went about in the world bareheaded; and they that are hanged by the hands, these are they that took away and stole other men's goods, and never gave aught to the needy nor helped the afflicted, but did so, desiring to take all, and had no thought at all of justice or of the law; and they that hang upside down by the feet, these are they that lightly and readily ran in evil ways and disorderly paths, not visiting the sick nor escorting them that depart this life, and therefore each and every soul receiveth that which was done by it. (Syr. omits almost the whole section.)

    58 And the apostle said: Ye have heard what this woman hath related: and there are not these torments only, but others also, worse than these; and ye, if ye turn not unto this God whom I preach, and abstain from your former works and the deeds which ye committed without knowledge, shall have your end in those torments.

    Now it describes souls as having hair, and a head and tongue. So I assume a body, in hell, or Hades.
    Can you explain this?

    Using your analogy, I am trying to understand. Let me know if I understand.
    The soul is living; conscious. So the brain is not necessary for the soul to feel pain, or understand
    Is that correct?
     
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  17. Tzephanyahu

    Tzephanyahu Member

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    That’s not technically accurate. The Apostle Jude clearly references 1 Enoch. (Jude 1:14-15 and 1 Enoch 1:9). What then, was Jude not inspired? It’s in your canon. The Messiah practically quotes 2 Esdras verbatim (Matthew 23:37-38 and 2 Esdras 30:34). Will you concede that as a possibility or will you rather favour any other explanation to bolster your case?

    Keep in mind, 2 Esdras (as well as the rest of the collection classed as the Apocrypha) were removed as recent as the late 1800s and were in the 1611 KJV. So, if we were having this conversation in the early 1700s, you’d be battling for the authority of a much larger Bible with a clear conscience. Even the very first church fathers quoted from these books and others found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Were these early leaders wrong and Catholic church, years later bringing in heretic teachings, correct?

    There are also many other references that can be found in the Bible alluding to Enoch, Jubilees and even the small book of Tobit (Hebrews 13:2). I’m sure you’ll contest all these things though, which is fine. Each to their own.

    But if you still believe that the 66 books of the Bible are all that there is – explain to me where evil spirits (demons) come from? Where does the Bible explain Sheol (a term used regularly)? What is the third heaven that Paul speaks of? Expound, if you can, on the events of Genesis 6:4? Why did Moses use the word “Nephilim” without needing to explain the term further?

    Now, as for the Acts of Thomas – I have never confirmed or hinted at this being a book I accept. Not every book claiming to be inspired is inspired. However, to claim that every book claiming to be inspired that is not in the Canon is a “work of Satan” (as I believe you are proposing) is without wisdom but is rather a fear-based reaction. I’m sorry for the blunt appraisal, but I cannot find any harmony with your views on the matter – if you indeed believe this.

    I don’t think there is pain like how you are thinking. I think you are trying to equate physical sensation with torment and I think it may be different, though I could very well be wrong.

    Consider depression for example, such as would lead a man to suicide. Now, medical science can study the affects of depression neurologically, but not the cause. They have theories, but not enough significant evidence. There are pains such as heart ache, hopelessness, longing, fear and panic which do not have their route cause in the brain, but we can only study their “trails” in the brain. This kind of pain is very different to “Ouch, that’s hot”.

    Nevertheless, we cannot assume that there is no physical discomfort as well. It’s a possibility and there are possible allusions to this in the text but I can’t confirm with any confidence - sorry.

    Peace
     
  18. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Something I would ask myself Tzephanyahu, is why is Jude in the early Greek Canon, while Enoch is excluded from the early Hebrew Canon?
    Then I would ask myself, if God wanted it to be there, would it not be there? So why is it not there?
    Then I would question myself further. Does it give any evidence that it fits well into the Canon, so that perhaps God forgot about it on purpose?
    Why would God leave it out, if it is important? Surely, man would not be able to prevent it being included. After all, God is not weak.

    When the Catholic Church tried to burn at the stake, those who felt the Bible should be in Latin alone, and not made available to all (the common people), they failed.
    Men like John Wycliffe successfully produce a translation that people could read in their common language.

    Wycliffe's Bible is the name now given to a group of Bible translations into Middle English that were made under the direction of John Wycliffe. They appeared over a period from approximately 1382 to 1395. These Bible translations were the chief inspiration and chief cause of the Lollard movement, a pre-Reformation movement that rejected many of the distinctive teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. In the early Middle Ages, most Western Christian people encountered the Bible only in the form of oral versions of scriptures, verses and homilies in Latin (other sources were mystery plays, usually performed in the vernacular, and popular iconography). Though relatively few people could read at this time, Wycliffe's idea was to translate the Bible into the vernacular, saying "it helpeth Christian men to study the Gospel in that tongue in which they know best Christ's sentence".

    Although unauthorised, the work was popular. Wycliffe Bible texts are the most common manuscript literature in Middle English. More than 250 manuscripts of the Wycliffe Bible survive. One copy sold at auction on 5 December 2016 for US$1,692,500.

    Why? That's what God wanted - that his word be made available to all.
    So why did Enoch not make it? Why did the said Catholic Church - head of all manner of
    The association between Wycliffe's Bible and Lollardy caused the Kingdom of England and the established Catholic Church in England to undertake a drastic campaign to suppress it. In the early years of the 15th century Henry IV (in his statute De haeretico comburendo), Archbishop Thomas Arundel, and Henry Knighton published criticism and enacted some of the severest religious censorship laws in Europe at that time. Even twenty years after Wycliffe's death, at the Oxford Convocation of 1408, it was solemnly voted that no new translation of the Bible should be made without prior approval. However, as the text translated in the various versions of the Wycliffe Bible was the Latin Vulgate, and as it contained no heterodox content, there was in practice no way by which the ecclesiastical authorities could distinguish the banned version; and consequently many Catholic commentators of the 15th and 16th centuries (such as Thomas More) took these manuscript English Bibles to represent an anonymous earlier orthodox translation. Consequently, manuscripts of the Wycliffe Bible, which when inscribed with a date always purport to precede 1409, the date of the ban, circulated freely and were widely used by clergy and laity.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    fail to get Enoch into the Bible that is now made available to over 90% of earth's population?

    The simple answer that's clear to me Tzephanyahu is... God did not want it.
    The reasons seem obvious to me also.

    I would say, one does not have to assume that Jude quoted the later writings, of any Jew.
    He could have gotten that information from the same place the apocryphal writings sourced, which may have been oral, or written.
    Or, as he was inspired, he could have gotten the information by Revelation, in the same way, he knew that Michael the archangel had a dispute with the Devil, over Moses' body. (Jude 9)

    Stephen too, provides information which isn't quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures. He writes of Moses' education in Egypt; how old he was when he fled Egypt; his 40 year stay in Midian, and how he received the Law from an angel.
    Do we need to assume that Stephen quoted a book written outside the early Hebrew Canon? We don't, d we.

    In any case the apocryphal writings were additions, made later, after the early Canon.
    This is known.
    May I ask why you are silent about the additions to Esther, that were contradictory, and the contradiction in Baruch.
    You asked about contradictions, but you didn't respond to them, after they were provided.

    I would say, that and other facts, are evidence against the books.
    Will you concede to that evidently being the case, or will you rather favor any other explanation to bolster your case?
     
  19. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    It's no surprise the KJV - of Catholic origin, would contain those additional books.
    I don't think anyone contests that fact.
    The KJV also contains some spurious texts, including the one found in 1 John 5:7, 8
    Johannine Comma
    They still fight for these texts.

    However, the Hebrew Canon was closed, not opened, to allow for additional books, and they were... my apologies once again 39 book... seems I can't count, lol.
    The English word canon comes from the Greek κανών, meaning "rule" or "measuring stick".
    There are certain credentials it must meet.
    It must be of Divine Authorship demonstrating that it was inspired by God. (2Pe 1:21)
    When we examine the early Bible Canon - 39 books, does its contents measure up to this criterion in every way?
    Can the same be claimed of the 41 books the Catholic holds as their Canon?
    Can you demonstrate that they do?

    Thank you for asking.
    Perhaps let me answer that by asking you to explain how these scriptures support the views you present of the soul.
    Genesis 2:7; Genesis 6:17, 22; Genesis 7:15
    Let's start with those, for now.

    I'm sorry you were offended at my statement. I didn't intend to cause offense, but from what I read in those books, it was clear, they are not inspired, and are a design in such a way as to closely imitate the inspired book, but with an element of extreme exaggerations that would cause one to turn a critical eye towards the genuine texts.

    Think of a hero. Now think of an imitator that does some of what the hero does, but then does other things that are unpleasant. Would people not look at the hero, in a negative light?
    That's exactly what Satan does.
    He did it in the past, with the false miracle workers - the magic practicing priest. He did it with false prophets. He did it with false apostles. He did it with false Christians in the second century, and he did it with these false apostolic books.
    Anyone reading them, can see the design.

    I haven't read all these books, but I was referring to the ones I read, and I said, it is my opinion, that this is the case with those later additions to the early Canon.

    Why would you suggest that is not based on using wisdom?
    We have the knowledge, The books are additions, written later, about a century after the early Canon.
    They contain contradictions to the early Canon.
    They contain exaggerated fanciful stories, additions, and interpretation to the early Cannon.

    Wisdom is the ability to use knowledge in a proper, correct or beneficial way.
    So, I would say, I am following the course of wisdom.
    If these books met the criteria of the accepted early Canon, there would be no reason for me to reject them.

    So, are you saying, that you do not agree with what the "Acts of Thomas" there says about the soul, and "Hades"?

    I was hoping you could explain it to me. So you are saying you cannot yourself explain it?
    Would that be because you don't understand it?

    I'm thinking it requires consciousness in order to know anything or have awareness. Would you agree?
    To be conscious or away, one must be alive. Isn't that true?

    Yet, the Bible says, Psalms 146
    3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
    4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

    Ecclesiastes 9
    5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

    Isaiah 38:18
    18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

    The scriptures evidently agree, that in death, there is no awareness.
    So even these are contradicted by the apocryphal writings.
    Isn't that what you see?
     
    #19 nPeace, Jun 9, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
  20. Novatian

    Novatian New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2021
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    Religion:
    Pentecostal
    Witches have no holy power, as soon as the word witch was used in scripture, she works with spirits of deception. She had no power or association with Samuel, his spirit was in paradise. The spirit that appeared was a familiar spirit pretending to be Samuel. It studied Samuel for many years.
     
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