Question About Prayer

[IndigoChild5559]

Now let me be clear...this is mostly directed towards Abrahamics but anyone is welcomed to answer...if you arent an abrahamics and worship many gods replace God with gods...If I were to pray to your God and I don't follow your religion how would your God feel about that? Would he listen or would he be offended? Would his feelings change depending on what religion I do follow? Example: say I was at a friend's house. They ask me to bless the food. They all are of an Abrahamic faith such as Christianity...I do not worship the Christian God. I don't want to make a scene by praying to a pagan deity. So I pray to the Christian God. Would the Christian God be offended that I a pagan who worships many gods prayed to him? Would he feel differently if I was an atheist? Just something I thought about and got curious.

I think anyone who reaches out to God is heard. Even if they have mistaken ideas about the nature of God.

 

[Windwalker]

No, not a lack of humility in your responses! On the contrary, I have found you very pleasant to debate with. You're reasonable, patient, kind and thoughtful. It has been a joy to speak with you.

Also, I hope you don't think I'm trying to suggest I'm more well-read or complete than you. Far from it. I still have far to go and lots to learn. When in comes to the Scriptures, I'm still an amateur.

I appreciate this, but I will ask that if you see yourself as an amateur, or that I'd find a better student in a local church, and that I've drawn the short straw with you, then why do you seem so certain of yourself that you have the truth from scripture, and I am in error to the point you are concerned for me spiritually? Could it be that perhaps you're not seeing what I am seeing from my many years of experience on my path with God?

True, but there is a higher chance that I am correct if my views are supported by Scripture.

All of my views I am expressing can find in scripture as well. That does not prove me right and you wrong, or vice versa. That only proves what I have said which is that scripture can be understood in a myriad of different ways, because everyone reads it through different filters.

As far as being "correct", that's the crux of the problem right here that is a stumbling block for many a young Christian these days. It's a bit of a plague, actually. I touched on this before as I called this view of God as seeing him as the Cosmic Quizmaster, where we are graded on how well we got our theology right.

You and I could go back and forth all day about how we each understand the same verses of scripture differently. You could find supports, and I can find supports. But again, that is not what makes someone a Christian.

Let me add my views are formed from Scripture - they are not my own. Doesn't mean I'm 100% right though. Neither have I ever implied that. I still have much to learn.

To clarify, your views mold and shape what you read from scripture. This is true for everyone, and why we see the same scriptures with a different understanding. It's not because of sin. It's because of perception.

But Judgement Day and answering for ourselves seems to be a key message in Scripture. But if you think this will not be the case, please share your view of the the after life.

To make Judgement Day central to your faith, strikes me as very odd. What about life in this world now? To me, the focus of faith should be about being the salt of the earth, being light in this world, and living this life more abundantly. To make faith about life after death seems to miss the whole purpose of it to begin with. There are far too many who spend their whole lives religiously preparing for their reward after this life, and missing the Reward in this one. That's more than a shame. I see it as a failure of faith.

Since you ask me to share how I perceive the "afterlife", I'm happy to share. It is all the same thing. This life, the next life, etc, it's all Life. It's all a continuation. Life is Life is Life. That is why the work is not about finding Truth in the next life, but finding Truth here and now. "You shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free". That's pointing to this existence in this body of flesh, and any other point. The Kingdom of Heaven, can, and should be realized now while you are alive in this flesh. To make it about after death, to me, is to ignore the Gift that Life is right now, and fail to 'fulfill all the law and the prophets'.

No I think it's going to be based on what you knew, what you did with the time and knowledge you had. A simpleton without the capacity to understand the Torah may be declared righteous along side the scholar with a good heart. But what of the man who knew of the Torah, had the capacity and time to understand but wasted the time on fiction and worldly distractions - assuming he had time to change and get right with God?

But what of the man who knew of the Torah, but did not agree with the modern interpreters of it that God expects you to follow the practices of the Old Testament laws, because Grace and Love are the fulfillment of those laws in themselves? Let me explain this another way.

Back in my early years as a Christian, I was troubled by the teachings of the group I had adopted in my youth as my path to Knowledge, that if someone had heard the gospel preached to them, they were now accountable to God for it, and would be judged by it. Even back then, that struck me as unjust, as well as illogical.

Even in my youth, sitting in the classroom 6 hours a day learning the Bible from cover to cover for several years as I was earning my degree in theology (yes, I've read the Bible), I realized the complexities involved in someone of a different culture and language, to both understand and accept this teaching as we were told was the Gospel. Basically, it became a measure of how well the preacher was able to communicate across all those things that make understanding between different languages and cultures possible, that they would be judged by.

It seemed better that they just didn't hear what this preacher from the United States in his particular cultural worldview and image of God in his mind had to say! They were doing just fine, and could be judged righteous because of the goodness of their own heart before God, which scripture teaches, without this guy preaching to them. But then along comes this guy trying to earn another soul-winner's crown to add to his trophy room of his righteousness and position in the afterlife, and now all bets are off! "You've heard the message, now if you reject what I say, you're going to burn in hell." Wow. Please, don't tell them then! They were doing just fine before you came along with something, that legitimately they would have a really hard time trying to see, let alone accept.

Like I said, rather than being the God of Infinite Love and Grace, as I had encountered and converted me to a path of seeking the Divine, all prior to exposure to any religious teachings, I was being presented God in such a legalistic way that God seemed more like a salvation vending machine, where only the properly issued legal tender minted by the authorized religion created by God himself, was required in order to get God to operate properly. That struck me as not the Nature or Way of God at all.

I've come to see over the several decades that really it comes down to the filters through which we ALL see God through and understand and relate to God with. And that has to do 99% of the time with how we were raised. First, how we were raised by our parents, and then how the culture we grew up in which programs each and every single one of its participants with the 'correct' ways in which to see things that it had evolved to be. The primary reason though, is our earthly parents and home life.

I grew up in a home that the Cognitive Sciences refer to as the Nurturant Parent home. The other type of homelife is the Strict Father home. You can familiarize yourself with this here: Nurturant parent model - Wikipedia and Strict father model - Wikipedia

So, very much like that cartoon says with Jesus contrasting himself with the religious legalists, where they use scripture to understand what love means, and he uses love to understand what scripture means (my approach as well), the child from a Nurturant Parent family sees God through that set of eyes (love), and the child from the Strict Father family sees God though that set of eyes (rules and obedience as conditions for acceptance).

Both views of God can be found in scripture, as Crossan so wonderfully exposes from an academic's lens of modern critical analysis in his book, How to Read the Bible and Still be a Christian.

 

[Windwalker]

My friend, I'm concerned that you might not understand the Scriptures plainly. I would wish for nothing else than you to read the WHOLE Bible literally and accept it to be ALL divinely inspired - every word of it (at least in the original). If you did these things, you would be doing well. I don't care if you believe like me and in the way I do, but that you would believe in all the words of Scripture as true and literal.

But I have read and take into account the whole Bible. But I most certainly do NOT read it all literally! Nor did Jews and Christians throughout all of history do that. That is a modern view of scripture, not an ancient one.

This is really great presentation of just that you can find here, written to atheists debunking this whole notion that Jews and Christians from antiquity were literalists like the modern fundamentalist claims. That is false. The most prominent voices of the religious world of that day, the ones who shaped and formed what became Christianity that you inherited from them, were not literalists at all. That's bad history and theology to believe they were. The Great Myths 11: Biblical Literalism - History for Atheists

Add to this historical truth, what that other author I quoted before who is a professor of comparative religions wrote about the blight of modern literalism in modern churches,

The literal imagination is univocal. Words mean one thing, and one thing only. They don’t bristle with meanings and possibilities; they are bald, clean-shaven. Literal clarity and simplicity, to be sure, offer a kind of security in a world (or Bible) where otherwise issues seem incorrigibly complex, ambiguous and muddy. But it is a false security, a temporary bastion, maintained by dogmatism and misguided loyalty. Literalism pays a high price for the hope of having firm and unbreakable handles attached to reality. The result is to move in the opposite direction from religious symbolism, emptying symbols of their amplitude of meaning and power, reducing the cosmic dance to a calibrated discussion.

One of the ironies of biblical literalism is that it shares so largely in the reductionist and literalist spirit of the age. It is not nearly as conservative as it supposes. It is modernistic, and it sells its symbolic birthright for a mess of tangible pottage. Biblical materials and affirmations -- in this case the symbolism of Creator and creation – are treated as though of the same order and the same literary genre as scientific and historical writing. “I believe in God the Father Almighty” becomes a chronological issue, and “Maker of heaven and earth” a technological problem.​

I'd encourage you to spend some time with the full essay if anything I've said resonates at all for you. Even though it is 20 years old now it still speaks a clear truth about the nature, and modern origins of literalism. It is not supported by scripture, and it is not supported by history. Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance – Religion Online

Correction, I didn't say God, but my faith. I was Christian, then Messianic, then Christian again. I was too liberal, then too legalistic, and now more balanced (though I still have far to go). Balanced in terms of understanding that the Narrow Path the Messiah talked about was between Law and Liberty. Not being under the curse of the Law, but rather free to follow it under grace and in thanksgiving.

You changed your ideas of what God is and requires of you. That is what I said, and you have done so in your life. In other words, we are saved by faith, not correct beliefs. Were you "lost" in those previous versions of your faith, but now you have the "real" truth? Or did you see yourself on your path, and those were just various explorations for you to find truth for yourself within?

Amen! Haha. Man, what is wrong with us... We have to try an be a little more conservative with our words!

Peace

Yes, well... we both share that same addiction to words. In the interest of keeping that under control, I think I can cover most everything else by saying both you and I can cite the same scriptures, and pull out supports both from within scripture and external to it to support those views. We could go on and on without end on that, but that exercise ultimately is about hearing the sound of our own voices. Rather instead, I think we need to focus at a far higher level than quibbling over interpretations.

That is why I am talking about the nature of how we hear truth and interpret it, as well as the Divine itself which exists beyond all our beliefs and ideas about God. It's not about ideas and thoughts and the rationality. It's about Love. And that is something all humans have the capacity to understand, all within their own language and ways of perceiving God and the world. God does not have a "right religion" for you to join. God seeks a true heart, not the proper coinage to purchase his Grace.

 

[Tzephanyahu]

then why do you seem so certain of yourself that you have the truth from scripture, and I am in error to the point you are concerned for me spiritually? Could it be that perhaps you're not seeing what I am seeing from my many years of experience on my path with God?

Perhaps. But I'm only sharing what I have witnessed to be truth, in testimony and according to the Scriptures. But if you are further along the path with God than me, then it is in a way that doesn't correlate with the Word of God, but contradicts it. So, the more likely scenario is that you may not be on the path which is taught therein. Hence my concern.

All of my views I am expressing can find in scripture as well.

Not all of them. But some of them, yes. But where others contradict I have indicated it.

Listen, if you have your own private interpretation or acceptance of certain Scriptures, that's between you and God. But I would be doing you a disservice if I said any different. So feel free to ignore me, as a person, but please consider these points of contradiction to seek the truth, a harmony or adapt accordingly - if you would have YHWH be your God.

In ancient Israel, some who thought they were being loyal to YHWH eventually wandered too far from the right path and their privately established version of YHWH became an idol to them, in the eyes of God. So if I truly cared for you, wouldn't I bring these disparities up? Yet, you'd probably appreciate me more (even perhaps like me) if I just pat you on the back and called you brother.

That only proves what I have said which is that scripture can be understood in a myriad of different ways, because everyone reads it through different filters.

To some extent and in some places, correct. But the plain reading and understanding of the text is always valid. The Word has been written for the simple and the wise.

I touched on this before as I called this view of God as seeing him as the Cosmic Quizmaster, where we are graded on how well we got our theology right.

I don't see Him as a Cosmic Quizmaster. But I do think we'll be weighed up by our intellect and time we had and what we done with it - which would be perfectly fair.

So, for example, a simple man who loves God wholeheartedly but never understood the Torah and was poorly taught, may be recieved as a good and faithful servant. However, a smart man who had the capability and time to understand Torah but refused to, even though he was warned numerous times, could theoretically be asked "Why?" Now, that is conjecture, but a legitimate possibility.

As for theology, the man who doesn't care for various schools of thought but walks before God with a clear conscience and in truth may be recieved as a good and faithful servant. However, the man who prides himself in a certain theology may find that he will be judged by his own standards according to his theology (whether it's right or wrong), as we see in the below passage:

For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. - Matthew 7:2

To clarify, your views mold and shape what you read from scripture. This is true for everyone, and why we see the same scriptures with a different understanding.

Yes, this is a true statement.

To make Judgement Day central to your faith, strikes me as very odd.

This is a central theme throughout Scripture. Not only in Torah, but from the first book of the prophets to the very last. "The Day of the Lord", as it is called, is the whole purpose why we should even repent - because it is coming. NB: the Day of the Lord is not a literal day but a time period, and Judgement Day is a modern idiom for describing when you meet you maker and are judged.

This life we live now can be likened to a training ground for the world to come. What we do and don't do here is being recorded and assessed ahead of the real thing. And, as vivid as this world may seem to you now, the next one will make this place seem as hazy a dream.

To me, the focus of faith should be about being the salt of the earth, being light in this world,

A light for what purpose? Just for the sake of it? No my friend, the light is meant to draw those in the darkness to the truth. So that they can prepare themselves ahead of the Day of the Lord and new world to come.

This life, the next life, etc, it's all Life. It's all a continuation. Life is Life is Life.

Then, I'm sorry, but it seems you have misunderstood the Scriptures. This almost sounds Buddhist in essence - which if that's your thing, then that's your thing. But it's not the Bible's thing.

This life now is indeed a gift but the world we live in isn't what it was supposed to be. It's fallen. You might live in a serene part of it, but not a lot people do. Much evil happens on an international scale, even in courts of "justice" and right outside our front doors. But soon it will be different.

Back in my early years as a Christian,

Thank you for sharing your testimony and I think it explains how your views were formed.

Much harm has been done by poor preachers and teachers in Christianity - in the past and present. It's led a lot of people away from the faith because of their hypocrisy and illogical teaching. True, some have even done these things for selfish ambition. Their judgement will be just. The matter is highly frustrating to me.

But it seems that you were left trying to find peace on the matters of God, Creation, Salvation and Life and you eventually settled into the views you had today. Views that are safe from outside influence, disturbance and correction, as your view has an answer and defence for every attack. Perhaps because of subconscious psychological self-preservation, or perhaps because you are just quick-witted and smart.

There is a potential problem though. IF your views are wrong and have been established primarily from your heart rather than the Bible, then this could mean serious jeopardy for you. Not that anyone could warn you of such thing though, as "once bitten..." and all that.

What then, is God looking for you to jump through certain hoops before He accepts you? You've got the gist of it, love Him and your neighbour, right? Does He want more, like some vicious Cosmic Quizmaster? Such questions are missing the main point.

He wants to know you, He wants to have a true relationship you, He wants to save you. But if your attitude towards His ways are "Bah! not necessary!" then how can He guide you to Him and raise you as a son of God? Should the Creator change who He is and what He says is good and right to condescend to your level before you meet Him?

It's not about how you obey Torah or even if you do obey Torah at all - but your heart attitude towards His word is crucial. Even if you did nothing but the Sabbath for the rest of your days but read His words in awe, with the due respect they deserve, you would do well. Because if you believe in the Messiah, then realise that He considered the OT as divinely inspired words of the Living God - not a flawed text that isn't fully accurate or can be understood this way or that way. What then, is He wrong and you are right, being much wiser on the matter?

Once again, it's not about what you need to do. it's about your heart attitude and respect towards Him and His Word. To be humble to not try and correct it, but be corrected by it.

I don't know if I'm even making sense now. Perhaps it's too late to have this conversation if your mind is fully settled on the matter. In which case, maybe I should say no more lest we go around in circles or I accidentally offend you in some way.

 

[Tzephanyahu]

But I have read and take into account the whole Bible. But I most certainly do NOT read it all literally! Nor did Jews and Christians throughout all of history do that.

What a bold claim. Cite your sources as I haven't found this to be true in my studies.

This is really great presentation of just that you can find here, written to atheists

You lost me at "atheists". That's like saying "Check out this great presentation about Black History written by a red-neck racist"

Before anyone gets offended - I'm not comparing Atheists to Racists, but demonstrating the vast difference of motives and partiality.

I'd encourage you to spend some time with the full essay if anything I've said resonates at all for you.

Thank you for the recommendation, it's kind for you to supply it.

I see this author's view in the quoted passage as flawed and without sources. But who am I, right? I have no letters following my name and no published books. But it's not just me who understands the Bible should be taken literal even though there are multiple messages that can be extrapolated from one text. HOWEVER, the plain reading of the text is never compromised - such is the beauty of its design that is beyond comparison.

For example, the prophecies in Jeremiah applied literally to Judah before the Babylonian exile, but also applies to Christianity today. Prophecies have many layers of meaning, but the plain reading and understanding of the text is never compromised. Obviously we must be reasonable when literary devices are used in the Scripture (but it's clear whenever this is the case even to the unlearned student).

Were you "lost" in those previous versions of your faith, but now you have the "real" truth? Or did you see yourself on your path, and those were just various explorations for you to find truth for yourself within?

I was taking other people's advice and teachings during those previous versions of my faith. The Bible is a big book and I wanted and needed guidance. Over the years I got to consume the Bible for myself (though that mission is never truly done) and now I know what it says and teaches, for the most part. It's not that I was lost and now I have the real truth. Rather that I was following others until I could stand on my own two feet.

As well as this, YHWH was working in my heart, helping me to change and lose all the nonsense within me. He has chastised me I believe many times for following my faith with poor morals, motivation, conviction or even heart. Yes, I am a sinful man and am flawed in many ways - but even more so at the beginning of my walk. So I'm grateful for the odd little journey I've had.

Yes, well... we both share that same addiction to words.

Hehe, word.

That is why I am talking about the nature of how we hear truth and interpret it, as well as the Divine itself which exists beyond all our beliefs and ideas about God. It's not about ideas and thoughts and the rationality. It's about Love. And that is something all humans have the capacity to understand, all within their own language and ways of perceiving God and the world. God does not have a "right religion" for you to join. God seeks a true heart, not the proper coinage to purchase his Grace.

I love your sentiment here and the idea. I totally hear what you're saying. But I must slap you with reality and be the "party-pooper", even overly so, if it means that the balance can be found within you. Because true spirituality, and in some ways even love, thrives and grows with discipline and not freedom alone. Discipline is a horrible word though. Perhaps it might be better to say "focus" or "guidance". After all, YHWH gave you your spirit, He created it - and so He knows how to best harness it for true liberation .

Well, enough talking *slaps himself on the wrist.

 

[Windwalker]

Perhaps. But I'm only sharing what I have witnessed to be truth, in testimony and according to the Scriptures. But if you are further along the path with God than me, then it is in a way that doesn't correlate with the Word of God, but contradicts it. So, the more likely scenario is that you may not be on the path which is taught therein. Hence my concern.

So you would judge your brother in Christ by his theology and views of the Bible squaring with your views of it? "By their beliefs you shall know them," is what Jesus really meant to say instead?

Listen, if you have your own private interpretation or acceptance of certain Scriptures, that's between you and God. But I would be doing you a disservice if I said any different.

A couple of points here. First of all, everyone interprets scripture. That verse about "private interpretation" has nothing at all to do with how people are supposed to read scripture. It's about prophets not just saying what they think of the matter. They are speaking for God, it's not of 'private interpretation' for them. So, please do not delude yourself into imagining you are not interpreting the Bible any less than I am. You are. We are just interpreting through different sets of filters, and that is the only difference.

Next, I'd like to point out here that I don't feel it necessary for you to understand scripture in the ways I do in order for you to have your relationship with God. You are probably exactly where you need to be in order to find him in your life, just as you were before when you believed differently, and just as you may be 10 years from now in still yet a different place of understanding and beliefs at that time. God is the same all the way through, but how we think about God, changes as we change. That is how it should be.

Have I behaved like a sinner, cursing life and worshipping death, or something? Other than I think about God differently than you, what concerns you about my spiritual relationship with the Divine?

To some extent and in some places, correct. But the plain reading and understanding of the text is always valid. The Word has been written for the simple and the wise.

We can read the same passage, and the meaning may be perfectly plain to me. Yet, you may not see it that way. My plain reading and your plain reading will see different things, such as your reading of Romans 14, which frankly stupefies me. But, it is the lens through which you read the texts.

As for theology, the man who doesn't care for various schools of thought but walks before God with a clear conscience and in truth may be recieved as a good and faithful servant.

There you go. We are in agreement finally. Theology is overrated.

However, the man who prides himself in a certain theology may find that he will be judged by his own standards according to his theology (whether it's right or wrong), as we see in the below passage:

For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. - Matthew 7:2

I do want to point out here, it is you who are telling me my theology is wrong and yours is right. I don't pride myself in my views of God by which I judge your relationship with the Creator. You are questioning my relationship with God by your views of God, however. I always try to be mindful of Jesus' words here concerning judging another man's servant.

Then, I'm sorry, but it seems you have misunderstood the Scriptures. This almost sounds Buddhist in essence - which if that's your thing, then that's your thing. But it's not the Bible's thing.

Translated: 'You understand scriptures differently than me. It sounds foreign to me. It's not of God. You must not believe in the truth of scripture in the way I have found in it, therefore you reject it and God. You need to come to God and not have these different beliefs.'

What worries you that I do, or that I use words you're not familiar with? Not what worries you about my soul, but what worries you that I might be saying something legitimate? You never ask me why I say these things, I noticed. Only that I'm just wrong, and in need of aligning my beliefs with your view of the bible, which you just call "the Bible" to give your views more authority than mine.

It doesn't matter if what I say about God others in other religions say too. It doesn't make it wrong, because it comes from outside the religion you are familiar with. I do not believe God has a religion. God doesn't need a religion. Humans create them to help them on their paths to Divine Knowledge or "salvation". I don't limit God to Christianity.

Thank you for sharing your testimony and I think it explains how your views were formed.

Much harm has been done by poor preachers and teachers in Christianity - in the past and present. It's led a lot of people away from the faith because of their hypocrisy and illogical teaching. True, some have even done these things for selfish ambition. Their judgement will be just. The matter is highly frustrating to me.

I know what you are talking about with these charlatans who use the name Christian to peddle religion for profit. These are they who Christ says will say he never knew them. Wolves in sheeps clothing. Fake Christians, to use the modern vernacular.

Now while those certainly say something quite negative about Christianity, considering how many and widespread the wagon trains they amass behind them from the ranks of evangelicals, doing and supporting everything that is the antithesis of Jesus in the Beatitudes, etc, it's ultimately not them that led to me leaving that version of faith I had adopted in my youth. The core reason, in a word, is that I simply outgrew it. I needed a larger sized shirt than the one they gave me to fit into. They didn't have a larger size in their inventory.

But it seems that you were left trying to find peace on the matters of God, Creation, Salvation and Life and you eventually settled into the views you had today. Views that are safe from outside influence, disturbance and correction, as your view has an answer and defence for every attack. Perhaps because of subconscious psychological self-preservation, or perhaps because you are just quick-witted and smart.

The very first part is right, but then you going veering off the road sailing through the trees and ending up in the river. Teach you to drive drunk like that. Yes, I was left with a huge Unknown, once I pulled on those lose threads of their theologies and the whole structure came apart.

That wasn't easy. That took true faith and courage to go examine and challenge what they told me was God's word, very much like you do with me. Add to this, they liked to instill fear into believers that "doubt is the devil trying to steal your faith". Ever hear that? Ever teach that to other Christians, not to question the Bible, and that it is sin if you do? As I said, it took true faith to face that fear. I remember my prayer as I began, that I will be judged by the sincerity of my heart. I believed that then. I believe that now.

Now, where you start going off beam here, is assuming this was just a gentle settling into the easy chair I just sit back in now, shutting out any challenges, fearful of losing my happy place, building nothing but barriers to protect myself from hearing the truth from Christians. Yet, here I am talking with you. Go figure.

All of that is a fiction of course. The reality is the four decades since I departed from a fundamentalist perspective of God and religion, it's been a very long, uphill process, scraping the barnacles off the hull, lots of repair work, lot's of research, lot's of study, expanding my range of understandings, growth intellectually, and growth spiritually. Meditation/prayer one hour every morning for years on end. Health improvements. Work on old traumas. Etc. etc. etc.

Rather than my views being closed off to perspectives, they are wide open and inviting. The person you described, sounds more like yourself from what I am seeing. You have verses you quote to support a theology you have adopted for yourself that meets a need for you. I think perhaps, you are seeing yourself projected upon me? I can say this, years ago when I was a fundamentalist Christian, that may have described me then too. It kind of goes with the territory, I believe.

But yes, I'll take that you think I'm smart and quick witted. Looks like you managed to not totally wreck that car.

There is a potential problem though. IF your views are wrong and have been established primarily from your heart rather than the Bible, then this could mean serious jeopardy for you. Not that anyone could warn you of such thing though, as "once bitten..." and all that.

My relationship with God is not in jeopardy if my views are wrong. No one's views are "perfect", there's always something partial about them. But partial truth, is still truth nonetheless. Including how you view God.

Do you really believe God is concerned you got the right answers? What if I'm wrong? I think this bit goes to show just how absurd that whole idea is:

Once again, it's not about what you need to do. it's about your heart attitude and respect towards Him and His Word. To be humble to not try and correct it, but be corrected by it.

Sorry, I don't view the Bible as a co-equal with God. I just don't. But you are right, it's about my heart attitude and respect towards God. I just don't turn the Bible into an idol. I believe that to do that, violates the Bible itself. I will not be judged by God, by how much I believed in and worshiped the Bible. Not for one moment do I believe that.

 

[Windwalker]

You lost me at "atheists". That's like saying "Check out this great presentation about Black History written by a red-neck racist"

That's too bad you leapt to a wrong conclusion so quickly like that. I was letter TO atheists, from a perspective of the history of Christianity. It was not written by atheists to debunk the Bible. Give me more credit than that, please.

It's good material in that link, and it cites historical figures and information that you claim doesn't exist. You should read it, rather than close yourself off to it. What I am saying about how Christians have not historically read the Bible literally, is supported by history itself. But you need to read it for yourself. Do you disbelieve the actual writings of the early Church Fathers themselves in what their views of scripture were, where they explicitly say it's allegorical? How can you ignore that, and consider that an honestly belief?

Thank you for the recommendation, it's kind for you to supply it.

I see this author's view in the quoted passage as flawed and without sources. But who am I, right? I have no letters following my name and no published books.

You don't need to have a degree, to respect those that do. He is a professor of comparative religion at Gustavus Adolphus college in St. Peter, MN. Are you anti-academics? You don't listen to anyone, or give them credit for being experts in their fields when they contradict how you've seen things? How is that being honest and sincere in your faith?

I couldn't do that myself. For right or for wrong, at least I would be judged sincere, I told myself as I dared to examine my beliefs I held to be true.

I love your sentiment here and the idea. I totally hear what you're saying. But I must slap you with reality and be the "party-pooper", even overly so, if it means that the balance can be found within you. Because true spirituality, and in some ways even love, thrives and grows with discipline and not freedom alone.

It's interesting to me how that you hear what I am saying, which is freedom as you say, but take that freedom to mean a lack of discipline. How so? Yes, spiritual work requires discipline. Yes. Of course.

But as Jesus would put it best, "Take my yoke upon you, for my yoke is easy, and my burden is light". He was contrasting his law of love, a disciplined love, with the heavy burden of a legalistic code of religious piety. Everything should be light, not weighty and burdensome, like the law of external codes you just comply with, and be judged by. That's what Jesus encouraged his followers to move beyond, to set the free from that burden.

BTW, I wanted to talk about your views of the heart as being some inferior organ of the spirit. But I'm trying to keep the word count down. Here, just read this list yourself, with your heart, not your head. Just light a candle or something to help you relax, and read them as a prayer, listening with the heart. 48 Bible Verses about the Heart

 

[Tzephanyahu]

Hi @Windwalker

Okay, I think we ought to draw this to a close now. We could go on forever like this, explaining the same things in slightly different ways, neither of us actually getting through to each other or progressing the conversation further.

I don’t mean to seem disrespectful in not replying to each point you’ve raised but this will only lead to you replying to each response in turn! I’m also getting the impression that this has the potential to become negative soon, as your last two of posts had a certain tone about them and there were some incorrect and unfounded statements about me and my beliefs. Perhaps I may be guilty of doing the same as well. So maybe it's time for a line to be drawn…

You never ask me why I say these things, I noticed.

I’ve read all you have wrote but your arguments and use of Scripture have failed to convince or even intrigue me. I’m the type of character who is always seeking to learn and grow in my faith – I consider that I have long journey still ahead of me in learning the Word, God’s ways and so I love learning from others. However, the message you have brought to me has failed to interest or inspire me because all I’ve seen are generalised tenets that are very similar with Progressive Christianity and New Age beliefs. So this is why I haven’t been interested in learning more about your faith, as I’ve heard these views many times before. And they are quite a step away from what the Bible teaches – in both the OT and NT. Now, this is not according to my private interpretation, but according to what is clearly black-and-white in the Bible. Whilst I do have private interpretations on many passages in Scripture, I never teach these as fact and I’m quite able to see the differences between “I think” and “Scripture says”.

I can have a good guess at your response to that by now!

It seems we have different foundations and so, even though we click on several points in our beliefs, ultimately we’re on different paths. Whoever is right is known only to YHWH. Who knows, we might both be wrong! But we both can’t be right, as there are key points of contrast between us which cannot be harmonised.

I do really appreciate you sharing your views and you have done so very well and very patiently. So thank you for that. You have kindly considered my posts, retorted well and have remained respectful even when I’ve been very frank with you on some evocative points (I can be too blunt occasionally). In terms of a debating partner, you’ve been excellent. But all good debates must eventually reach a conclusion and, seeing as we do not have a moderator for our many words, I’m going to call it here.

I’m sure I’ll meet with you again in other posts and, when we do, let’s try and keep our posts shorter for the benefit of the others (and the servers)!

I will leave you to have the last word.

Peace.

 

[Windwalker]

Okay, I think we ought to draw this to a close now. We could go on forever like this, explaining the same things in slightly different ways, neither of us actually getting through to each other or progressing the conversation further.

I've been trying to draw this back from debating verses of scripture, and instead focus on the whole higher level perspective of general approaches to faith and its various tools, such as scripture. From that perspective for me, I can allow for your views for you as a legitimate path to God for you where you are at. But that seems to stands in contrast with how you see things from your perspective, that while you allow for divergences of view, you assume God will see them as wrong for me too, as you do.

That alone should be the focus of attention, much more than how you interpret scripture differently than me. That alone is the singular issue for me, and why I focus so strongly on Romans 14, which frankly shines a perfect light on the contrast in our discussion (I've never viewed this as a debate).

It has been an exercise for me to live up to Paul's injunction to not threaten your faith, while I allow that liberty within mine. While I don't see what you see as necessary, I embrace that that is how you choose to relate to God, and that it's not what you believe, but how you believe that is the measure of whether you or I stand or fall before the Master.

I’m the type of character who is always seeking to learn and grow in my faith – I consider that I have long journey still ahead of me in learning the Word, God’s ways and so I love learning from others. However, the message you have brought to me has failed to interest or inspire me because all I’ve seen are generalised tenets that are very similar with Progressive Christianity and New Age beliefs.

I too am always seeking to learn and grow in my faith. That is why I am no longer a fundamentalist Christian. It was hindering that growth for me where I was at. A size 7 shoe on a size 11 foot, does more harm than good. But just because my views are more modern, and perhaps you could use the word progressive, New Age they are definitely not.

But my hope had never once been to convince you I am right, and you are wrong in my sharing my perspectives. I know that is impossible, as in order to see them requires a shift of paradigm itself, and that is not something that you can learn about by reading books. It's a shift of perspective which occurs as whole change of mindset itself. That happens beyond rational discourse.

So I know I cannot convince you of my perspective, nor expect that that is necessary for you either. Again, that is the contrast between us. You think it is necessary for me to return to see things through the perspective you share. I don't see it as necessary for you by contrast.

I see God's Grace for you, God's acceptance of you, is not based upon the things I judge as true for myself. And that to me, is what Romans 14 is trying to teach the Christian church. This discussion, has been a perfect case study of that chapter on display, posing its own challenges for me in response to your insistence I am wrong and you are right.

So this is why I haven’t been interested in learning more about your faith, as I’ve heard these views many times before.

Which is really unfortunate. Wouldn't it have been more respectful to show an interest in how I think about these things, rather than in dismissing them and not be interested because they don't square with your ideas of truth? I am sincere in my faith. And to me, that should be something you celebrate, rather than try to say I'm wrong and my relationship with God is at risk if I don't believe and practice Christianity in the ways you interpret it.

Again, I don't do that with you, but you do do that with me. To me, that has far less to do with our hermeneutics, as it does our mindsets and heartsets. And I do not point that out to insult, but to provoke to the greater good. The real reason I left fundamentalism, was primarily centered around the heart. I had a hard time accepting God as exclusivist in those ways He was being presented to me, as my experience of God was the opposite of that, and the opposite of what I could see in scripture as well at that time.

And they are quite a step away from what the Bible teaches – in both the OT and NT. Now, this is not according to my private interpretation, but according to what is clearly black-and-white in the Bible.

I understand Christian fundamentalism sees things in black and white terms. And that is the real crux of the difference between them, and other Christians. Not all Christians are so predisposed to seeing the world in black and white terms. I used to be that way. but that became that size 7 shoe on a size 11 foot for me. Black and white thinking, is rigid and closed. Heart-based thinking, is soft and full of grace by contrast.

Whilst I do have private interpretations on many passages in Scripture, I never teach these as fact and I’m quite able to see the differences between “I think” and “Scripture says”.

Do you think I have ever expressed that I see my views of God and scripture as facts? I've thought I've always been clear that we are talking about perceptions of truth, and how that depends upon the person. So, if I've ever given the impression of "I'm right about this, and you need to believe it," that would certainly not have been my intent.

It seems we have different foundations and so, even though we click on several points in our beliefs, ultimately we’re on different paths.

Different paths, perhaps. Or perhaps, the same path, but different elevations and perspectives from those different altitudes we climb going up the side of that Mountain? I personally see it more like that. The foundation too should be the same, and that is Faith. But the set of eyes we use, well, some eyes are blue, some eyes are green, some eyes are nearsighted, and so forth. Same foundation, different eyes, different feet, different ideas. Same Goal.

Whoever is right is known only to YHWH. Who knows, we might both be wrong! But we both can’t be right, as there are key points of contrast between us which cannot be harmonised.

And this, is the core of the difference, the watershed point. Our approach to Truth. Our paradigms. Our set of eyes. I believe everyone has a piece of the truth, as no one can be so stupid as to be wrong 100% of the time. What matters is the sincerity of the heart, not the accuracies of our beliefs. That alone is the difference, namely our ideas of truth. We are not save by our ideas. We are saved by Faith.

I do really appreciate you sharing your views and you have done so very well and very patiently. So thank you for that. You have kindly considered my posts, retorted well and have remained respectful even when I’ve been very frank with you on some evocative points (I can be too blunt occasionally). In terms of a debating partner, you’ve been excellent. But all good debates must eventually reach a conclusion and, seeing as we do not have a moderator for our many words, I’m going to call it here.

I’m sure I’ll meet with you again in other posts and, when we do, let’s try and keep our posts shorter for the benefit of the others (and the servers)!

I will leave you to have the last word.

Peace.

Thanks, I appreciate it. You too have been a good discussion partner. I did not feel I had any "tone" in my last post, or really any of them, but I do understand it can feel like we are reworking the same ground. As I said, it's about the eyes we see with that defines what we can see at that time. It's not about right ideas, but a true heart.

I'll end with a quote from my favorite Christian mystic of the past, Meister Eckhart. "The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love." That's the Goal. That's the Hope.

I too hope we can pick this up again later, as frankly it's been therapeutic for me in many ways.

Peace

 

[Art1787]

Now let me be clear...this is mostly directed towards Abrahamics but anyone is welcomed to answer...if you arent an abrahamics and worship many gods replace God with gods...If I were to pray to your God and I don't follow your religion how would your God feel about that? Would he listen or would he be offended? Would his feelings change depending on what religion I do follow? Example: say I was at a friend's house. They ask me to bless the food. They all are of an Abrahamic faith such as Christianity...I do not worship the Christian God. I don't want to make a scene by praying to a pagan deity. So I pray to the Christian God. Would the Christian God be offended that I a pagan who worships many gods prayed to him? Would he feel differently if I was an atheist? Just something I thought about and got curious.

He would be glad to hear from you. Yes, he would listen. Your spirit is literally one of his children, which explains his keen interest in your spiritual welfare. No, he would not be offended. He would encourage you to pray to him more.

No, he wouldn't feel differently if you were an atheist. If you never prayed to him, how would you get what you need from him? Still, God loves all of his human children and sends his rain on the just and on the unjust. He will do things to help you even if you don't pray to him.