Question About Prayer

[VoidCat]

Yes, that was my point. If you believed in Him a little, would you think He is just factually inaccurate or a liar... Just a strange question. But I see it's not really worth pursuing further as you say...



So, with that understanding, it's hard to talk about Scripture - What YHWH says about Himself and the Creation for example. In fact, with that premise, we really wouldn't know anything about Him without the Scriptures.

Anyway, thanks for replying and weighing up my strange question.

You are welcome...this whole conversation is hypothetical anyway as I was only curious as to how people think their god or gods would respond if I prayed to their deity or deities. I enjoy this convo by the way.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If I were to pray to your God and I don't follow your religion how would your God feel about that? Would he listen or would he be offended? Would his feelings change depending on what religion I do follow?

My God would not be offended and will be amused. He will ask you as to why you are worshiping him and why not your own Wiccan Gods and Goddesses. However, if you are asking for any help, he would not refuse you. Hinduism too is a pagan religion. It is a mix of Indian indigenous beliefs and the Aryan-Vedic religion. Krishna clearly said in BhagawadGita:

"śreyān sva-dharmo viguṇaḥ, para-dharmāt svanuṣṭhitāt;
svadharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ, para-dharmo bhayāvahaḥ."

It is far better to follow one’s own religion, even though faultily, than following someone else's religion even if perfectly. Destruction in the course of performing one’s own duty is better than following those of some other religion, to follow another path is wrong. (BhagawadGita 3.35)

 

[VoidCat]

My God would not be offended and will be amused. He will ask you as to why you are worshiping him and why not your own Wiccan Gods and Goddesses. However, if you are asking for any help, he would not refuse you. Hinduism too is a pagan religion. It is a mix of Indian indigenous beliefs and the Aryan-Vedic religion.

I am not a Wiccan just a Norse pagan...but I love the fact your God would be amused.

better to follow one’s own religion, even though faultily, than following someone else's religion even if perfectly. Destruction in the course of performing one’s own duty is better than following those of some other religion, to follow another path is wrong. (BhagawadGita 3.35)

Agreed.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Any paganism is OK with me. Yeah, don't we try to help strangers in trouble? That many a times turns into friendship later.
However, please note that I am a strong atheist and a Hindu (yeah, possible with Hinduism). I do not pray to any God or Goddess.

 

[VoidCat]

Any paganism is OK with me. Yeah, don't we try to help strangers in trouble? That many a times turns into friendship later.
However, please note that I am a strong atheist and a Hindu (yeah, possible with Hinduism). I do not pray to any God or Goddess.

Good to know

 

[firedragon]

If I were to pray to your God and I don't follow your religion how would your God feel about that?

What you mean by "Praying" I suppose is "asking God to provide something for you" or supplication. Is that what you are meaning?

In that case, this is up to God. Humans will not know what he will do.

 

[VoidCat]

What you mean by "Praying" I suppose is "asking God to provide something for you" or supplication. Is that what you are meaning?

In that case, this is up to God. Humans will not know what he will do.

My defination of prayer- just talking to a deity...dont have to ask for things or anything like that. Altho you could

 

[firedragon]

My defination of prayer- just talking to a deity...dont have to ask for things or anything like that. Altho you could

Oh I understand. In Arabic, one would call it "salah".

Nevertheless, its the same response. A human can never comprehend this so we dont know.

Lets say a person who calls himself Muslim, prays to his idea of God in his own way. Can he claim that it will work? Maybe you are a more humble person than this so called "muslim" so maybe, God will hear you first.

After all, the Muslim Qur'an begins with "zalikal kithaaba la raiba fee hi hudhallil muttaqeen" which means "this is the book where there is no doubt is for the righteous". Note, it says Righteous. Thats the 1st verse in the second chapter.

Peace.

 

[JustGeorge]

I tend to approach Gods in a similar manner as friends and neighbors...

Some are friendly, and like to associate with others, even if they don't know them well(or at all). Some love to form new friendships. Others, not so much. They want to know why you are bothering them, and to make it brief until they get to know you better. It is not impossible to form a relationship, but it may take more work. And some just don't want anything to do with you, no matter what happens.

Some personalities click. Some don't.

I think in reference to addressing the God of a friend at a dinner party(or something similar), it is perfectly acceptable, as you are being polite. If a person at the table poked you and said "ask Todd to pass me the rolls, please" you'd likely turn to Todd and do this. You wouldn't tell the requester "Todd isn't my friend, so I'm not going to do it." (At least I hope you wouldn't.) How you are received by that God would be dependent on the past relationship. If you have a volatile relationship with that God, they may not appreciate it(such as Todd may not want to associate with you if you broke into his house a year ago, and may spit on you as he passed you the rolls). But, if the relationship is one of a stranger, the interaction would probably be brief, and would move quickly without reaction on either part.

 

[Clara Tea]

Now let me be clear...this is mostly directed towards Abrahamics but anyone is welcomed to answer...if you arent an abrahamics and worship many gods replace God with gods...If I were to pray to your God and I don't follow your religion how would your God feel about that? Would he listen or would he be offended? Would his feelings change depending on what religion I do follow? Example: say I was at a friend's house. They ask me to bless the food. They all are of an Abrahamic faith such as Christianity...I do not worship the Christian God. I don't want to make a scene by praying to a pagan deity. So I pray to the Christian God. Would the Christian God be offended that I a pagan who worships many gods prayed to him? Would he feel differently if I was an atheist? Just something I thought about and got curious.

The Abrahamic (Jewish, Christian, Muslim) God claims to be jealous. He said that only he is God and that there will be no other.

The Trinity is supposed to be about God split into three parts (father, son, holy ghost). Yet, the bible doesn't seem to support that. Rather, Jesus was supposedly the son of God and Mary (so a half God), and he was called "Lord," but he was not supposed to be called "God."

God clearly told humans not to make graven images (like the golden calf) because that could lead to worshiping the image, rather than heeding God.

God tells us how to live right, and how to prosper, and how to handle tragedy in our lives. Apparently, God doesn't rescue us from tragedy (cancer victim's prayers are ignored...and all prayers of everyone else are apparently ignored). So, if we ignore God and do what is natural for humans, we will harm ourselves, and God doesn't want that.

For example, when the Al Qaeda attacked New York and Pennsylvania with the 911 attack, President W. Bush figured that he should attack someone in the Middle East (and it didn't really matter which country, because he conflated all Middle Easterners with all other Middle Easterners.....to him, they are all alike, guilty or innocent, he treated them as guilty). So, though Iraq was not at all involved in terrorism, President W. Bush attacked Iraq. This was in direct defiance of God's orders in a chapter of the bible called Revelation. In the bible, God ordered that no one attack Iraq or face God's wrath.

It is interesting to note that the Taliban of Afghanistan had captured Osama Bin Laden and his men just 9 days after the 911 attack, and offered to turn them over to the United States if President W. Bush could prove that they had been involved in terrorism. W. Bush believed that proof would eventually be found once their country was destroyed and their people killed. Clearly, God was right, and W. Bush was wrong.

Fear of further Al Qaeda attacks made President W. Bush defy God and attack Iraq. God had also ordered "turn the other cheek" and "thou shalt not kill."

It was President W. Bush's lack of faith in God that allowed him to follow the path of Satan (fear, lies, wars, torture camps). W. Bush should have realized that God would handle the Al Qaeda in his own way.

God believes that if mankind worships lesser Gods or other Gods, they will not heed his instructions. We have to be careful to block out Satan's fear, lies, wars, and torture camps, and listen only to God.

 

[Windwalker]

True. But we were discussing statements YHWH makes Himself rather than Christians.

That again, is a matter of Christian perspective. What you may read as God himself literally speaking, another Christian may understand that as an expression of the author's views of God, filtered through his culture and mythologies, in symbolic form. So it is the same reference, just a different understanding of that reference. It becomes a matter of language and perspective, but both Christian perspectives nonetheless.

I think that might be pushing Paul's words a little too liberally. But surely you balance Paul's writings with the rest of the Bible, right?

Paul's views are rather liberal, which is why they resonate with me. (By Paul, I mean authentic Paul in the genuine Pauline texts, according to modern scholarship). And yes, I take it all in balance. I also take the rest of the Bible, by Paul's perspective, from John's perspective, from Jesus's perspective (the goal), and a range of other perspectives, modern and ancient. It all needs to be balanced, not lopsided to only one idea of truth, and limited to that alone. It needs to be an open system, not a closed one.

True.

And do you feel it is okay for Christians to have other views you don't agree with?

Well, according to Scripture YHWH does care about specific days - Feast days and Sabbaths are holy for a reason. To take Paul's words in Colossians out of the context of the rest of the Bible will cause a misunderstanding on this matter.

I think you are misunderstanding the underlying point Paul is making in Romans 14 (I had not referenced Colossians). First, you can clearly see Paul is saying that it does not matter to God in that passage, because he is telling the Christians there not to judge each other as right or wrong, and specifically calls out those 'babes', or those still needing milk, as he says elsewhere, being concerned about rituals, eatings of meat, and such.

Paul is saying the mature Christian may realize that those are not essential requirements of faith, but to not put a stumbling block for those younger in faith who believe it is important. And likewise, for those who think all the rituals and forms are what are important, to not judge those Christians who don't. That's what the whole chapter is about.

The bottom line of it is, that Paul does not say to them, "Yes, you must obey the days observed, and follow the law legalistically." He concludes the very liberal perspective, which I share with him here, that God judges the sincerity of their hearts before him. In other words, God is bigger than religion. He judges the truth of our hearts, not the correctness of our ideas and things we choose to believe while trying to figure out life.

So would I be right in thinking that you are for God and for Scripture (at least Paul from what you have quoted) unless things get too specific such as the commandments and details? I might be wrong in my estimation, so forgive me if that's the case.

I'm not sure what you mean by me being for God and for Scripture. What does that mean? I think of Reality in terms of the Divine, or God, most certainly. And scripture of course has importance and value spiritually, as well as in other ways. I'm for Knowledge.

But I push back against those who say they know the Truth, because they have a limited perspective of scripture or truth, and proclaim that as Truth. "It's not my words, but God's words!", for instance. I differentiate between our ideas of truth, as strongly as we may believe them to be truth, and the Truth itself. God is the Truth, and all our ideas about God are perspectives of that Truth, through the lenses of our life experience.

I kinda get what you're saying, I think. That basically Christianity is all over the place with what it says about God. I can see totally see that. It seems like the various types of confusion always root back to people not taking ALL of the Bible (Old and New Testament) literally or invalidating certain parts, at their own whim.

But is it really confusion, or just different perspectives of truth? I know it's a natural tendency for us as humans to be perplexed when others don't see things the same ways we do, when it all seems so obvious and apparent, since it's right there, and we see it with our own two eyes. But even in regular daily life, we should at some point recognize the fallacy of that, and that standing on one side of the road looking at something, you won't see what the person on the other side of the road is seeing. That's just the nature of perspectives.

To those who don't read the Bible legalistically, that God cares that we rigidly adhere to the dietary laws, or days of observances he gave to the Jews as part of their social structure, they do not in their hearts believe that they are negating God's law "at their own whim". They are sincere in their faith, that that does not matter to God. Can other Christians allow that, or are they to be their judge? That's what Paul is specifically addressing in Romans 14.

But some matters are not Christian or Jewish in nature, such as the statement that YHWH makes many times in the Bible - that He is the only God and there is no other. It was that question I posed, out of interest, to someone who recognised YHWH along with other deities as I thought it was an interesting dichotomy,

That statement from scripture, is a Jewish or Christian perspective, of course. And it can be understood in many ways, from many perspectives. So I think it is safe to say, that all religions are perspectives of the Divine, with their own respective pathways and traditions. One can recognize them all as forms or expressions of how humans relate to the Absolute. So that means then, that some may be able to see that same Face of the Divine, in other religious expressions and forms. Even some Christians can do that too.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Now let me be clear...this is mostly directed towards Abrahamics but anyone is welcomed to answer...if you arent an abrahamics and worship many gods replace God with gods...If I were to pray to your God and I don't follow your religion how would your God feel about that? Would he listen or would he be offended? Would his feelings change depending on what religion I do follow? Example: say I was at a friend's house. They ask me to bless the food. They all are of an Abrahamic faith such as Christianity...I do not worship the Christian God. I don't want to make a scene by praying to a pagan deity. So I pray to the Christian God. Would the Christian God be offended that I a pagan who worships many gods prayed to him? Would he feel differently if I was an atheist? Just something I thought about and got curious.

If you don't believe in Him, why bother? It's insincere. Just have someone else who does believe say the prayer.

 

[VoidCat]

If you don't believe in Him, why bother? It's insincere. Just have someone else who does believe say the prayer.

Agreed. It was just an example.

 

[soulsurvivor]

Now let me be clear...this is mostly directed towards Abrahamics but anyone is welcomed to answer...if you arent an abrahamics and worship many gods replace God with gods...If I were to pray to your God and I don't follow your religion how would your God feel about that? Would he listen or would he be offended? Would his feelings change depending on what religion I do follow? Example: say I was at a friend's house. They ask me to bless the food. They all are of an Abrahamic faith such as Christianity...I do not worship the Christian God. I don't want to make a scene by praying to a pagan deity. So I pray to the Christian God. Would the Christian God be offended that I a pagan who worships many gods prayed to him? Would he feel differently if I was an atheist? Just something I thought about and got curious.

There is a hierarchy of beings that respond to prayers - first would be your guardian angel, next would one of your spiritual guides (this a group that constantly looks after and guides you - may include some relative who has passed away, often a grandparent), next would be any Masters or Angels in the vicinity. Very rarely a God himself may intervene and help. In none of cases does the being responding care who you worship and who your prayers were addressed to.

 

[nPeace]

Now let me be clear...this is mostly directed towards Abrahamics but anyone is welcomed to answer...if you arent an abrahamics and worship many gods replace God with gods...If I were to pray to your God and I don't follow your religion how would your God feel about that? Would he listen or would he be offended? Would his feelings change depending on what religion I do follow? Example: say I was at a friend's house. They ask me to bless the food. They all are of an Abrahamic faith such as Christianity...I do not worship the Christian God. I don't want to make a scene by praying to a pagan deity. So I pray to the Christian God. Would the Christian God be offended that I a pagan who worships many gods prayed to him? Would he feel differently if I was an atheist? Just something I thought about and got curious.

I haven't looked at the other posts to know what answers you got, but I will give an answer from the God of Abraham, accoding to the Bible.
There is where I believe we can get the answers.
If I were to pray to your God and I don't follow your religion how would your God feel about that?
Would his feelings change depending on what religion I do follow?

(Isaiah 1:11-20) 11 “Of what benefit to me are your many sacrifices?” says Jehovah. “I have had enough of your burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed animals, And I have no delight in the blood of young bulls and lambs and goats. 12 When you come to appear before me, Who has required this from you, This trampling of my courtyards? 13 Stop bringing in any more worthless grain offerings. Your incense is detestable to me. New moons, sabbaths, the calling of conventions —I cannot put up with the use of magical power along with your solemn assembly. 14 I have hated your new moons and your festivals. They have become a burden to me; I am tired of bearing them. 15 And when you spread out your palms, I hide my eyes from you. Although you offer many prayers, I am not listening; Your hands are filled with blood. 16 Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove your evil deeds from my sight; Stop doing bad. 17 Learn to do good, seek justice, Correct the oppressor, Defend the rights of the fatherless child, And plead the cause of the widow.” 18 “Come, now, and let us set matters straight between us,” says Jehovah. “Though your sins are like scarlet, They will be made as white as snow; Though they are as red as crimson cloth, They will become like wool. 19 If you show willingness and listen, You will eat the good things of the land. 20 But if you refuse and rebel, You will be devoured by the sword, For the mouth of Jehovah has spoken it.”

Would the Christian God be offended that I a pagan who worships many gods prayed to him? Would he feel differently if I was an atheist?

(Proverbs 28:9) The one refusing to listen to the law - Even his prayer is detestable.

I hope the answer was clear from those texts.
God even rejected hs own people, and refused to listen to them when they refused to listen to him.

(Jeremiah 15:7) I will destroy my people, Since they refuse to turn back from their ways.
(Jeremiah 35:15) And I kept sending all my servants the prophets to you, sending them again and again, saying, ‘Turn back, please, each of you from your evil ways, and do what is right! Do not walk after other gods and serve them. Then you will keep dwelling in the land that I gave to you and your forefathers.’ But you did not incline your ear or listen to me.

He accepted people who turned back or searched for him - repented.

(2 Chronicles 6:26, 27) 26 “When the heavens are shut up and there is no rain because they kept sinning against you, and they pray toward this place and glorify your name and turn back from their sin because you humbled them, 27 may you then hear from the heavens and forgive the sin of your servants, of your people Israel, for you will instruct them about the good way in which they should walk; and bring rain on your land that you gave to your people as an inheritance.
(Ezekiel 18:32) 32 “‘I do not take any pleasure in the death of anyone,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah. ‘So turn back and live.’”
(Ezekiel 33:11) 11 Tell them, ‘“As surely as I am alive,” declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that someone wicked changes his way and keeps living. Turn back, turn back from your bad ways, for why should you die, O house of Israel?”’

So it's not about who you are. It's about what you do, along with what's in you.
However, there are many who will not turn around, due to they not being worthy.
(Mark 4:11, 12) 11 He said to them: “To you the sacred secret of the Kingdom of God has been given, but to those outside all things are in illustrations, 12 so that, though looking, they may look and still not see, and though hearing, they may hear and still not get the sense of it; nor will they ever turn back and receive forgiveness.”

 

[Etritonakin]

Now let me be clear...this is mostly directed towards Abrahamics but anyone is welcomed to answer...if you arent an abrahamics and worship many gods replace God with gods...If I were to pray to your God and I don't follow your religion how would your God feel about that? Would he listen or would he be offended? Would his feelings change depending on what religion I do follow? Example: say I was at a friend's house. They ask me to bless the food. They all are of an Abrahamic faith such as Christianity...I do not worship the Christian God. I don't want to make a scene by praying to a pagan deity. So I pray to the Christian God. Would the Christian God be offended that I a pagan who worships many gods prayed to him? Would he feel differently if I was an atheist? Just something I thought about and got curious.

Unless sincere, there would be no meaning in it.
It could possibly be taking God's name in vain -but he would also consider all other aspects, such as your heart being in the right place even if the act was not correct. Attitude is important.
He also knows he is not calling all to repentance yet -and actually does not reveal himself or convince us of certain things until the time is right (Even so in Christ shall all be made alive, but every man in his own order).
Things done in relative innocence or ignorance are not as weighty where guilt is concerned -but still have their effect.

 

[Tzephanyahu]

What you may read as God himself literally speaking, another Christian may understand that as an expression of the author's views of God, filtered through his culture and mythologies, in symbolic form.

There are very few places, I can probably number on one hand, where this thought process applies. The Scriptures are very clear to Hebrew and Greek scholars, Christian and Secular, as to when Yahweh is speaking. With the exception of the book of Jeremiah which has moments of interpretation needed.

The whole "Thus says the Lord..." and "...then you will know that I am The Lord" are kind of good indicators, I would say.

But with this perspective of yours, what do you say about the Ten Commandments? Was that YHWH speaking or not?

Paul's views are rather liberal, which is why they resonate with me.

No, I don't believe they are liberal. I believe they match Scripture and follow along with it in harmony. They are not more liberal or less liberal that the rest of the Bible. Paul excels in Biblical commentary and apologetics which is why his style is so engaging, and he considers his gentile mindset in his style, hence the appeal. But I don't see examples where he is more liberal that the rest of the Bible. If he was, the Jews would have had the perfect excuse to trial him - but of course they had none. They had to invent excuses to persecute him.

It all needs to be balanced, not lopsided to only one idea of truth, and limited to that alone. It needs to be an open system, not a closed one.

Okay, so in your balanced view of the Scriptures, with all the influences you have absorbed, what is your interpretation of Exodus 20:3?

And do you feel it is okay for Christians to have other views you don't agree with?

I do. I'm not so bold as to think I have understood everything correctly. I'm constantly refining my understanding, challenging it and adapting it. I have had to correct my path at the direction of wise old men and through the simple words of young children.

It is a shame that Christianity is a bit of "hodge-podge" mess these days. However, that was indeed prophesised to happen in these last days. It was foretold that their would be corruption in the Body with the minority being true disciples.

In my personal opinion, one shouldn't draw near to a church to learn the Word these days. It's too risky. Rather, they should turn to the Word itself and do the best they can to read it with no preconceived ideas and humility. Then they will find the truth to all things. These are dark times.

The bottom line of it is, that Paul does not say to them, "Yes, you must obey the days observed, and follow the law legalistically." He concludes the very liberal perspective, which I share with him here, that God judges the sincerity of their hearts before him. In other words, God is bigger than religion. He judges the truth of our hearts, not the correctness of our ideas and things we choose to believe while trying to figure out life.

Yes, I know of the passage in Romans 14 well - one of my favourites actually. Paul does indeed ask the Body of Christ to find harmony with each other and for the more learned amongst them to not trouble the newbies joining. However, that is not the continuous advice for that newbie on year 5, 10 and 15 - surely you must appreciate that?

So, if a gentile from Ephesus joined the church in the first century, it wouldn't be wise to hit them with the whole Torah as a conditioning of joining. They would likely get scared and wonder off! So learning the ways of righteousness was to be done at a steady pace in their gatherings each Sabbath. "For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath." Acts 15:21. The Spirit would then convict the chosen in their heart on the Torah and obedience to it. Not to follow the legalistic letter of the Law in fear, but to do so in truth, love and desire to serve the Most High.

You are right in what you say. God looks at the heart. But it seems you are coming from a stance to say "He looks at the heart, not obedience to Him". But then wouldn't your heart then be saying "I'm not bothered about obeying Him"?

But yes, God is bigger than religion I agree. In fact, true Christianity is not a religion at all - but a citizenship.

But I push back against those who say they know the Truth, because they have a limited perspective of scripture or truth, and proclaim that as Truth. "It's not my words, but God's words!", for instance.

So let's imagine in an alternate reality that people DID in fact know the ultimate truth. How would they get that message through to you? Or would the very fact that some say "here is the truth" invalidate the claim for you?

What I'm asking is do you believe in an ultimate truth which is specific (recorded in Scripture)? Or is specific truth an entirely subjective concept to you and you only allow non-specific truth to exist (i.e. "there is a God and He is love")

But is it really confusion, or just different perspectives of truth?

Unfortunately, it is confusion.

Such people ignore certain Scriptures that do not agree with their theology or twist the context beyond reasonable measure. Most of these "perspectives" require you to avoid the plain reading of Scripture. And they do not often have a decent understanding of the Old Testament, but just the New.

that does not matter to God.

Quite a bold statement. You didn't even preceed it with "I think..."

Okay, you say it doesn't matter to God. How do you know that? What truth are you basing that on?

Please provide a quote from the words of the God Himself or the Messiah to show such obedience doesn't matter. Or will you need to turn to Paul again or more specifically Romans 14?

A believer in YHWH and His Son should be careful not to base their understanding entirely in the writings of Paul, lest they miss the background context of his writings.

That statement from scripture, is a Jewish or Christian perspective, of course.

Hmm, not really. I'm desperately trying to see how you can say the ten commandments are not God's words but a Jewish/Christian perspective, but I can't see it.

o I think it is safe to say, that all religions are perspectives of the Divine, with their own respective pathways and traditions.

Well, that's the real kicker isn't it. Every other religion is probably fine to fall under that umbrella you opened. But not the one detailed in the Holy Bible.

YHWH says He is the only one and there is none other: "Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." - Isaiah 44:8

That is why I asked this question on this thread originally: "If you believe that YHWH exists, do you think he is factually incorrect or a liar?" Because He says He doesn't fit into a pantheon of others. He says there is no structure of others. He is the only one and above all - the only true God and Creator. Hence the option is actually (a) you believe in any or all the gods you want to, but not YHWH, (b) you believe in YHWH but not any other "gods".

Anyway, thanks for your reply. I can understand your perspective and you voiced your opinions well and respectfully. It's always fascinating to share with others on their views of the matter.

Peace.

 

[nPeace]

In my personal opinion, one shouldn't draw near to a church to learn the Word these days. It's too risky. Rather, they should turn to the Word itself and do the best they can to read it with no preconceived ideas and humility. Then they will find the truth to all things. These are dark times.

@Tzephanyahu this is how many, including myself came to learn what the Bible actually teaches.
It reminds me of Acts 8:26-40
It's as it is truthfully stated at 1 Chronicles 28:9 and John 6:44

I like that expression you used... "no preconceived ideas and humility".
It's truly a pleasure meeting people like that, especially being as that was my disposition.
It's evidence that God does search through hearts, and finds the desirable things. Haggai 2:7

 

[Windwalker]

There are very few places, I can probably number on one hand, where this thought process applies. The Scriptures are very clear to Hebrew and Greek scholars, Christian and Secular, as to when Yahweh is speaking. With the exception of the book of Jeremiah which has moments of interpretation needed.

The whole "Thus says the Lord..." and "...then you will know that I am The Lord" are kind of good indicators, I would say.

But with this perspective of yours, what do you say about the Ten Commandments? Was that YHWH speaking or not?

The perspective I have holds the modernist, or multifaceted perspective in one hand, and the theological perspective in the other. Each inform each other. So when I say that is the voice of the author, I do not mean to say that verse in structure has the subject YHWH as the speaker. That's just basic hermeneutics.

Rather, what I mean is that someone being inspired by the Divine in some way, speaking through that, is not a stenographer taking dictation from God. The person speaking is expressing Truth, but all of it is filtered through themselves as a human being. So therefore, one has to take cultural influences, the times, the language, the meanings of symbols, etc. All of those were the vehicles of expression of something Transcendent, yet put into those symbols, for those people, of that day.

And it is easy to mistake the symbol itself, with the meaning of the symbol. The meaning transcends the symbol itself. The same meaning is found in other symbols as well.

No, I don't believe they are liberal. I believe they match Scripture and follow along with it in harmony. They are not more liberal or less liberal that the rest of the Bible. Paul excels in Biblical commentary and apologetics which is why his style is so engaging, and he considers his gentile mindset in his style, hence the appeal. But I don't see examples where he is more liberal that the rest of the Bible. If he was, the Jews would have had the perfect excuse to trial him - but of course they had none. They had to invent excuses to persecute him.

You do see different voices within scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, which pretty much mirrors what we see today with the progressive leaning, and more conservative voices vying back and forth together. When society pushes too far forward, conservative voices pull the other opposite direction. Those different voices in scripture, very much mirrors the stage we are at right now in our society in that struggle.

When I say Paul's voice is liberal, I mean he very much pushing the envelope, and not being a conservative. His views are rather radical, once you examine them. Progressive movements are inclusive. Conservative movements are exclusionary, drawing back in on themselves away from other influences, and outsiders. That is what Paul was up against in opposition to in several of his other authentic epistles. That was the "Judaizers", trying to get the gentiles to be circumcised and follow all the rest of the law after conversion. So Paul's voice was liberal here, and the Judaizers were the conservatives.

But you also see those different voices throughout scripture. They're both in there. Each side, speaking "Thus saith the Lord."

Okay, so in your balanced view of the Scriptures, with all the influences you have absorbed, what is your interpretation of Exodus 20:3?

I hear that as an expression set against a backdrop of culture and social changes that it has a particular meaning to them. What is it's meaning to us today however, is a topic for some in depth possible understandings. I could throw a few off the top of my head, such as not having anything in our lives be a substitute for God, including projecting our own egos upon Him and calling that God. The power of scripture, is in its openness to find meaning. I don't limit the meaning to one view of it.

I do. I'm not so bold as to think I have understood everything correctly. I'm constantly refining my understanding, challenging it and adapting it. I have had to correct my path at the direction of wise old men and through the simple words of young children.

It is a shame that Christianity is a bit of "hodge-podge" mess these days. However, that was indeed prophesised to happen in these last days. It was foretold that their would be corruption in the Body with the minority being true disciples.

In my personal opinion, one shouldn't draw near to a church to learn the Word these days. It's too risky. Rather, they should turn to the Word itself and do the best they can to read it with no preconceived ideas and humility. Then they will find the truth to all things. These are dark times.

It is curious to me how you characterize it as a hodgepodge mess. In what ways do you mean? Isn't diversity of beliefs within the community, all held with a common love of each other as the body of Christ, what creates unity? Isn't it's love that creates unity, not uniformity of beliefs? If you only love those who love you, what does that benefit you, Jesus might ask.

Yes, I know of the passage in Romans 14 well - one of my favourites actually. Paul does indeed ask the Body of Christ to find harmony with each other and for the more learned amongst them to not trouble the newbies joining. However, that is not the continuous advice for that newbie on year 5, 10 and 15 - surely you must appreciate that?

So, if a gentile from Ephesus joined the church in the first century, it wouldn't be wise to hit them with the whole Torah as a conditioning of joining. They would likely get scared and wonder off! So learning the ways of righteousness was to be done at a steady pace in their gatherings each Sabbath. "For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath." Acts 15:21. The Spirit would then convict the chosen in their heart on the Torah and obedience to it. Not to follow the legalistic letter of the Law in fear, but to do so in truth, love and desire to serve the Most High.

Are you saying that don't tell them they need to get circumcised and obey all the law of Moses at first, but ease them into it, and when they are mature they will be obeying the law and following all its observances? That is not at all the meaning I read in Romans 14. The very opposite of that is what I read in fact. I hope that is not what you are saying, as there is an abundance of scripture that negates that.

But as far that chapter goes, don't make the mistake that someone being young or still green in faith, has anything to do with how long they have been a Christian for. If you were to map out maturity though stages, as developmentalists do, you can have someone remain developmentally at a stage, well into the adulthoods. Just adding time, does not translate into growth and maturity.

I read that chapter to say that there are different stages of maturity in faith, and to not berate the younger for thinking they need to be careful to not neglect the feast days, and such legal proscriptions from law of Moses for believing that matters, and for those at that stage to not accuse those whose growth has allowed them to understand faith in less rites and rituals and hard concrete literal terms.

That's really what it's about. There's not any, "they'll do it right, the way we see it should be done, once they've been here long enough", message in there from Paul that I can see. Quite the opposite. He speaks of the relative nature of what is believed, but says most cleary, it's the sincerity of the heart that matters. And he does mean, to God.

(I over replied... sorry... continued next post. )

 

[Windwalker]

You are right in what you say. God looks at the heart. But it seems you are coming from a stance to say "He looks at the heart, not obedience to Him". But then wouldn't your heart then be saying "I'm not bothered about obeying Him"?

If you're heart is sincere, your actions will follow. But let's be clear that by obeying God, or better put, by following the Will of God, as an internal action, you just naturally won't sin. It's against your character to do so. "Love works no ill". But that "obeying God" does not mean, you will then therefore go and obey all the religious holy observance according the the law of Moses.

Not sinning, does not mean following the law. Not sinning means doing no harm. It means, you obey Love. You follow Love. You follow Christ. Not religious observances.

But yes, God is bigger than religion I agree. In fact, true Christianity is not a religion at all - but a citizenship.

I agree, and were that true in practice, rather than being divided into "we're right and you're wrong" camps. I make it simple. "By their fruits you shall know them". That shows their citizenship, or not.

So let's imagine in an alternate reality that people DID in fact know the ultimate truth. How would they get that message through to you? Or would the very fact that some say "here is the truth" invalidate the claim for you?

What I'm asking is do you believe in an ultimate truth which is specific (recorded in Scripture)? Or is specific truth an entirely subjective concept to you and you only allow non-specific truth to exist (i.e. "there is a God and He is love")

I think you have to start with how you are framing the question. I suspect you may be assuming that there is a singular factual answer, and that then is the one single correct way to understand that thing, and all other understandings are error. Do you believe God can be understood this way, or would you agree with most the rest of Christendom, as well as all the other major religions of the world, that God is beyond comprehension, beyond the logical reasoning mind, beyond penetrating with the intellect?

Right at the outset, you're talking apples and oranges. You cannot speak of the Truth of the Divine, and be meaning propositional statements of truth, as the Ultimate Knowledge of God. That is absurd. It is taking a dualistic framework which we superimpose against Reality, or God, and use that tool of the mind to try to define God as an object of observations, a "he, she, or it" thing, like a car or a dog, or a person.

With that understood, which really changes the nature of asking the question itself, is truth entirely subjective? No, it's held as true by us by a variety of different filters, group membership, common symbols and language, personal experiences, personal maturity, etc, etc. But it has some actual referent, at one level or another. But at that level, it is beyond the mind to understand.

The Truth of God however, is knowable to all without words. It lives in all the world, for those with eyes to see.

Unfortunately, it is confusion.

Such people ignore certain Scriptures that do not agree with their theology or twist the context beyond reasonable measure. Most of these "perspectives" require you to avoid the plain reading of Scripture. And they do not often have a decent understanding of the Old Testament, but just the New.

Or they may have an understand you don't understand, and you call it error by default because it's not how you see it? As far as the "plain reading of Scripture goes", that's a meaningless term for the most part. If you know nothing of the context, or have no spiritual depth at all, a newbie, for instance, and just read the "plain meaning" of the words, you can end up very much with that "confusion" you complain about! In fact, that can be quite a dangerous thing doing that.

Quite a bold statement. You didn't even preceed it with "I think..."

Okay, you say it doesn't matter to God. How do you know that? What truth are you basing that on?

Please provide a quote from the words of the God Himself or the Messiah to show such obedience doesn't matter. Or will you need to turn to Paul again or more specifically Romans 14?

A believer in YHWH and His Son should be careful not to base their understanding entirely in the writings of Paul, lest they miss the background context of his writings.

The context I said that is was citing what Paul's conclusion was in Romans 14, using my wording. That was his meaning in context of that chapter.

Do I personally believe God doesn't care? Yes, absolutely I believe that. Do I know that? Yes, I know that. What am I basing that on? Personal experience. God is Love, Absolute, and Unconditional. Beyond words.

Hmm, not really. I'm desperately trying to see how you can say the ten commandments are not God's words but a Jewish/Christian perspective, but I can't see it.

The stories of the Bible, are stories that both came from and inform the Jewish and Christian perspectives. They wrote them. They are God's words, as expressed through those both reflecting and creating that perspective in those cultures.

Well, that's the real kicker isn't it. Every other religion is probably fine to fall under that umbrella you opened. But not the one detailed in the Holy Bible.

YHWH says He is the only one and there is none other: "Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." - Isaiah 44:8

I would very much disagree with that. The fact you have the "New Testament" shows and opening and more inclusive perspective of God and the world, "where there is neither Greek nor Jew, but all are one in Christ". Christ is no a religion. Christ is Spirit. Christ is Love.

Peace.