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Question about Pi

Sirona

Hindu Wannabe
Hello math aces, I have a question that bugs me. I guess I possibly misunderstood something, maybe you can explain it to me.

As I understand it, in irrational numbers like pi, no sequence of numbers repeats. But if one looks at the combination of numbers from 00 to 99, for example, there are a hundred possible combinations, so that in my eyes think a combination of numbers must repeat at some point, after all possibilities of combination have been "exhausted". But as I said, I am no expert and I am grateful for clarifications. :)
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It depends on the number of number in the sequence.

For example 26 is a sequence of two numbers that repeat quite often, twice in the first 20 some numbers.

Bur take a sequence of 10 numbers and i don't believe they repeat at least as far as the first 10000 numbers

Bigger the sequence the less chance of repeat

But don't hold me to this i am not a mathematician
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Hello math aces, I have a question that bugs me. I guess I possibly misunderstood something, maybe you can explain it to me.

As I understand it, in irrational numbers like pi, no sequence of numbers repeats. But if one looks at the combination of numbers from 00 to 99, for example, there are a hundred possible combinations, so that in my eyes think a combination of numbers must repeat at some point, after all possibilities of combination have been "exhausted". But as I said, I am no expert and I am grateful for clarifications. :)
I expect @Polymath257 will give you the definitive answer but my understanding is that it is not that sequences do not repeat (after all, you might have at some point a "....22....." and later on another "....22.....", which you could say is a rather trivial repeated "sequence"), but that there are no periodically repeating sequences.

(In fact π is not just irrational, it is also transcendental, but that distinction is rather technical and not something I know much about, not being a mathematician.)
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Hello math aces, I have a question that bugs me. I guess I possibly misunderstood something, maybe you can explain it to me.

As I understand it, in irrational numbers like pi, no sequence of numbers repeats. But if one looks at the combination of numbers from 00 to 99, for example, there are a hundred possible combinations, so that in my eyes think a combination of numbers must repeat at some point, after all possibilities of combination have been "exhausted". But as I said, I am no expert and I am grateful for clarifications. :)

The first thing to note here is that a repeating decimal doesn't have to be made up of only two digits, and there are many more than a hundred possible arrangements for a 10-digit number made up of the digits from 0 to 9, for example. A number can repeat twice or more in a decimal sequence of 10, so we may have 0113485926. But just to give you an idea of how many possible arrangements there are, let's say that we can't reuse a single number in a given sequence of 10.

The above means our possible permutations are 10P10 = 10! = 3,628,800 possible arrangements. These are permutations, not combinations: order matters here, because 0113 is different from 1103 even though they both use the same set of numbers.

Now, the second part is how to prove that an irrational number is non-repeating and non-terminating. One way to go about this is to use proof by contradiction: if we can show that an assumption of decimal repetition and termination in an irrational number leads to a contradiction, then we can say that by definition, an irrational number is non-repeating and non-terminating.

Let x be an irrational number. We will assume the negation of our initial assumption is true and then show it to be contradictory, thereby disproving it and showing that any number meeting these conditions must be rational. Our two assumptions that we want to examine here are these:

1) the irrational number will terminate at some point, or

2) the irrational number will be non-terminating but will repeat.

If 1 is true, then it is necessary that a positive integer n exists such that the decimal expansion stops after n digits. Consider this example:

0.25. This is the decimal representation of 1/4 (a rational number). Notice that this terminates two digits after the decimal point, so n = 2. Therefore, we can express this as an integer = x × 10^n, which, in this case, is 0.25 × 10² = 0.25 × 100 = 25. As you can see, this is an integer. Let's call it m.

From the above, we can see that m = x × 10^n, so x = m/(10^n). But now we can see one contradiction against our initial assumption: since we can see that x can be expressed as the ratio of the two integers m and 10^n, it is therefore a rational number. So we have just disproven the first assumption and shown that an irrational number will not terminate at some point.

The second part has to do with disproving that the irrational number will have a repeating decimal expansion. Again, we assume that an irrational number will have a repeating decimal expansion and then show that this leads to a contradiction, proving the negation of our assumption via contradiction. Consider this repeating decimal:

x = 35.34823232323 ad infinitum.

For a repeating decimal, there are an m number of positive integers, in this case 3, followed by a repeating number of positive integers n, in this case 2 (since 23 is made up of two digits). So, representing this using a base of 10, we get this:

x × 10^m × (10^n - 1). Note that this is the product of a few integers, which means it is also an integer itself. Let's call it I, which gives us this equation:

I = x × 10^m × (10^n - 1). This means the number we have assumed to be irrational, x, can be expressed as x = I/(10^m × (10^n - 1). But now we see the contradiction in our initial assumption: x can be expressed as the ratio between two integers, which means it is rational.

Therefore, based on (1) and (2), any number x whose decimal expansion is terminating or infinitely repeating must, by definition, be a rational number. Otherwise it is irrational, as in the case of pi.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Hello math aces, I have a question that bugs me. I guess I possibly misunderstood something, maybe you can explain it to me.

As I understand it, in irrational numbers like pi, no sequence of numbers repeats. But if one looks at the combination of numbers from 00 to 99, for example, there are a hundred possible combinations, so that in my eyes think a combination of numbers must repeat at some point, after all possibilities of combination have been "exhausted". But as I said, I am no expert and I am grateful for clarifications. :)


More accurately, the sequence doesn't *cycle*. So, for example, if you compute
1/7=.142857 142857 142857 ....
and the 142657 cycles forever.

Yes, small sequences have to appear multiple times. It is an open question whether they appear 'randomly', meaning that each appears with its 'natural probability'. So, a sequence like 2517 (which is four digits long), could be expected to happen about 1 time in 10,000.

A number in which all finite sequences appear with their 'natural probability' on average is said to be a 'normal number'. We do not know if pi is normal or not.

I want to point out that there are many irrational numbers. For example the square root of 2 or the cube root of 5. In none of these will a sequence eventually cycle.

Also, simply being irrational doesn't mean the numb er will be normal. For example,
.101 001 0001 00001 000001 .....
does not cycle (so it is irrational), but the sequence 123 never appears.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
The important thing to understand about math is that the rules only work for us when we excuse all the ways they don't work. Take the mathematical rule that X = X. Now, logically this is impossible, because the only way that X can truly equal X is if it IS, ITSELF, X. Which makes the whole point of "equality" irrelevant, as X is a singularity.

But the mathematical equation X = X is a functional mainstay and foundational building block in mathematics. It's basically rule #1. ... Because we just ignore the fact that it's an irrational proposition. And in so doing, it "works" on paper. And it will work in real life, too, if we just continue to ignore the ways in which is does not work. For example: I agree to buy half of your herd of sheep, and my brother agrees to buy the other half. So we count the sheep and come up with an uneven number. Now what? Well, we just ignore it, and say that this one pregnant sheep counts as two sheep, and so now we have an even number that we can divide by 2. And my brother and I each buy 26 of your 52 sheep. But does this mean we each got an equal portion of sheep? Only if we ignore all the ways the sheep are not equal to each other. Which is in fact every way, except for their being a called "a sheep".

Math is all about ignoring all the ways that it's inapplicable, incoherent, or dysfunctional, so that we can make it useful to us in the real world.

;)
 
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