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Featured Question About Matthew 2:9

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Skwim, May 12, 2019.

  1. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    You're right. I left out mischiefmaking, fictions, misreports, jokes and frauds.
    With respect, that sounds like fairy tales, not like a statement about real things with objective existence.
    Now now! The snake was saying that although Yahweh had said that if Adam ate the fruit he would die the same day, she would not die the same day. And he was exactly right.

    And that was only a story anyway.
    And you.
     
  2. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    When the King James translated the word Gehenna into English as hellfire that put flames in hell.
    Gehenna was a garbage pit where things were destroyed forever Not burning forever.
    So, Gehenna is a fitting word for: destruction.- Psalms 92:7
    Since the wicked are destroyed forever then yes such ' baddies ' do go to their destruction (Gehenna)
    The definition of the lake of fire is defined for us at Revelation 20:13 which is defined as ' second death '.
    Even sinner Satan ends up in ' second death ' - Revelation 21:8
    Jesus destroys Satan according to Hebrews 2:14 B.
    So, ' second death ' is a fitting term for: destruction.
    This means Matthew, Luke and John knew that ' eternal fiery lake ' stands for ' second death ' (aka destruction ).
    Those destroyed ones then are Not conscious at all just as Ecclesiastes 9:5 says the dead know nothing......
     
  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find Yahweh was referring to a ' thousand-year ' day. - 2 Peter 3:8
    Adam and Eve would die before reaching age 1,000.
    And as Genesis 5:5 states that Adam died at 930 years of age.
    The oldest person is listed at Genesis 5:27 who also died before reaching age 1,000.
    Jesus' coming millennium-long day is also a thousand-year day.
     
  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    .... and I find at Revelation 21:5 that John wrote because the words of Revelation 21:3-4 are faithful and true.

    I read that a sample of Mary Todd Lincoln's wallpaper was found and reproduced for restoration.
    That made me think in the resurrection there could be her wallpaper on the walls.
    Someone said to me, what if she really hated that wallpaper, but had No choice at that time.
    So, it will be interesting to see what she has to say about the wallpaper on Resurrection Day.
    ( Resurrection Day meaning Jesus' coming millennium-long day of governing over Earth for a thousand years ).
    Until then Mary like rest at death know nothing - Ecclesiastes 9:5
    Know nothing but sleep -> Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Isaiah 38:18.
     
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  5. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    It is in eg Mark:
    Mark 9:43 ... rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched.​
    So I don't think you can say 'not burning forever' was the general view.
    There the word is shamad, 'be destroyed'.
    or shamad; or to eternal fire.
    ὁ θάνατος ὁ δεύτερός 'death, the second one' yup.
    It's not unlikely that Ep. Hebrews is a pseudepigraph, but that aside, the phrase is καταργήσῃ ... τὸν διάβολον '[that] he might destroy' the devil, not 'destroyed'.
    There, for the reasons above, we must differ.
    At that point in Ecclesiastes he's saying that the dead are dead, end of story. Later he considers what becomes of the 'breath', the spirit (without making it clear what).
     
  6. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    2 Peter 3:8[/quote] In the first place 2 Peter is a pseudepigraph. In the second place it doesn't refer to the 1000-year notion as applying to the Garden story. In the third place, if it did, it would be attempting a retrofit, which I reject as a means of determining what a text says. In the fourth place, if in the Garden story God said, 'don't eat it or you'll die a thousand years down the track' would be a great encouragement to eat it. Punishment in a thousand years time simply won't fit the story-telling mode. And it is, after all, simply a story.
    Do you think there was an actual Adam and he lived for 930 solar years? I think each of those ideas is untenable ─ the evidence against them is enormous.
    The oldest person is listed at Genesis 5:27 who also died before reaching age 1,000.
    No, Jesus promises in all three synoptics that the Kingdom will be brought in in the lifetime of some of his audience. So unless you think there are some folk out there a couple of thousand years old and starting to look impatient, that's simply a failed promise, one so obviously so that the author of John, way back in 100 CE, doesn't repeat it.
     
  7. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Wow, it seems as if you have given much thought in your ^ above^ reply.
    Right, at Ecclesiastes 12:7 Solomon considers the spirit ( it ).
    Thus, one's life's spirit (it) is a neuter "it" just as it is at Numbers 11:17,25.
    As far as ' breath ' please notice Psalms 104:29 because when 'breath ' is taken away one dies....
    Dies just as Adam died and 'returns' to the dust - Genesis 3:19

    I find in the Christian 'Greek' Scripture of Mark 9:43 is the word: Gehenna.
    King James used the English word hell in place of the word Gehenna found in verse 43.
    I am wondering where you got the word shamad at verse 43.
    ' fire the inextinguishable ' is: Gehenna .
    Gehenna was a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed. Not kept burning forever.
    So, Gehenna is a fitting word for: destruction - Psalms 92:7
    Thus, the symbolic ' lake of fire ' is ' fire the inextinguishable '
    The definition of the lake of fire is defined as 'second death' according to Revelation 20:13-14.
    In death there is No pain ( Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5; Isaiah 38:18; John 11:11-14 )
    Thus, the wicked which are ' destroyed forever ' are considered as being in ' second death ' (No resurrection).
    Sinner Satan ends up in ' second death ' (Revelation 21:8)
    Through Jesus' death, Jesus might make Satan ineffective - Hebrews 2:14 B, and this is a sure thing since sinner Satan ends up in 'second death'.
    Sinner Satan knows he has a short or limited amount of time as per Revelation 12:12 B; Psalms 37:9-11.
    Jesus was made manifest in that Jesus might destroy the works of the devil as per 1 John 3:8 B; John 8:44.
    A foremost work of the devil is ' death ' thus Jesus brings to nothing ' enemy death ' - 1 Corinthians 15:26.
    Brings an end to death for those who will stand fast in righteousness toward God and Jesus.
     
  8. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    In the first place 2 Peter is a pseudepigraph. In the second place it doesn't refer to the 1000-year notion as applying to the Garden story. In the third place, if it did, it would be attempting a retrofit, which I reject as a means of determining what a text says. In the fourth place, if in the Garden story God said, 'don't eat it or you'll die a thousand years down the track' would be a great encouragement to eat it. Punishment in a thousand years time simply won't fit the story-telling mode. And it is, after all, simply a story.
    Do you think there was an actual Adam and he lived for 930 solar years? I think each of those ideas is untenable ─ the evidence against them is enormous.
    The oldest person is listed at Genesis 5:27 who also died before reaching age 1,000.
    No, Jesus promises in all three synoptics that the Kingdom will be brought in in the lifetime of some of his audience. So unless you think there are some folk out there a couple of thousand years old and starting to look impatient, that's simply a failed promise, one so obviously so that the author of John, way back in 100 CE, doesn't repeat it.[/QUOTE]

    I wonder how you came to the conclusion that Luke 19:11-15 proves the kingdom (Daniel 2:44) will be brought in the 1st century __________
     
  9. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for those. I think they show that there's not a single idea about death and spirit and postmortal judgment in either the Tanakh or the NT.

    The word for 'destruction' in Psalm 92:7 is the Hebrew shamad. I can find my way through koine Greek but with biblical Hebrew I'm dependent on others, and shamad is Strong's transliteration of the Hebrew. I'm not aware of Gehenna being mentioned in the Tanakh at all, but I'm open to correction.
     
  10. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Thank you for your reply. I agree the word Gehenna is Not in the Tanakh.
    Not so much as correction but just to add to one's fund of knowledge.
    What I do find is what is recorded at Jeremiah 7:31-33; Jeremiah 7:32-34.
    That ' Valley of Hinnom ' served as a place for mass disposal (Not torture) - Jeremiah 19:2; Jeremiah 19:6-11.
    At Jeremiah 31:40 that low plain has been accepted and designated as the 'Valley of Hinnom'.
    The ' gate of ash-heaps ' is also connected to the valley - Nehemiah 3:13-14.

    I see concerning ' Gehinnom ' a Jewish commentator David Kimhi (1160-1235?) in his comment about Psalms 27:13
    " it is a place in the land adjoining Jerusalem..... there was continual fire there to burn unclean things.....Hence, the judgement of the wicked ones is called parabolically Gehinnom.".
    At Isaiah 66:24 Jesus apparently alluded to Gehenna at Mark 9:47-48
    No burial for the wicked. Kind of like corpses left on a battlefield for scavenger birds and worms would eat.
    In other words, Isaiah was Not saying worms live forever, but rather what the fire would Not consume, the worms would eat. ( complete destruction ).
    Thus, Isaiah was painting a symbolic word picture for us, Not of torture, but rather of complete destruction.
    - also, compare Psalms 5:9: Psalms 140:3 with Psalms 92:7
     
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  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Mark 9:1 is in reference to the coming (at that time) of the transfiguration VISION - Mark 9:2; Matthew 17:1-2.
    Thus, Matthew 16:27-28 to Matthew 17:1-9 is also about that transfiguration VISION.
    That VISION is to be fullfilled at Jesus' coming glory time of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40 which is still future.
    In other words, that VISION was a preview or a coming attraction of this future ' time of separating ' on Earth.
    Thus, Luke 9:27-36 is also in connection to the transfiguration VISION that happened in the 1st century.

    That ' fig' tree illustration of Mark 13:28-30 is in connection to 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13 in these last days of badness on Earth.
    Matthew chapter 24 has both a 'minor' and a MAJOR fulfillment. The MAJOR part is for our day or time frame.
    The 'great tribulation' mentioned at Revelation 7:14,9 did Not take place in the 1st century, but is for our time.
     
  13. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Alas, that sounds like rationalizing to me. If we follow the text, the author of Mark, hence the authors of Matthew and Luke, portray the Kingdom of God as something about to befall, something of instant concern to everyone then and there, as a matter of urgency. So in each of them, Jesus says, 'Some of you here will live to see it!'

    But that didn't happen. I can't think of any age that couldn't persuade itself the omens were so bad that the tribulation must be due in the next month or two. Why wasn't the Thirty Years War the Tribulation? World War 1? World War 2?

    I've never found a reason to think biblical prophecy works.
     
  14. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, some of them did see the ' transfiguration VISION '
    They lived to see Jesus transfigured before them in that VISION - Matthew 17:9
    That appearance was a forgleam, a preview of the time coming as mentioned at Matthew 25:31; Matthew 16:27
    As to why Not WW1 or WW2, etc. is answered at Matthew 24:6.
    When we hear, or see, acts of war that is part of the fulfillment in connection to Matthew 25:31.
    Wars coupled with the international proclaiming about God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 as mentioned at Matthew 24:14
    In other words, we would have to see both the scope of the wars and the international scope of Acts of the Apostles 1:8
    Thus, we are at the ' final phase ' about that world wide preaching work being done.
    This means we are nearing the ' final signal ' of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.
    This ' signal ' is when the powers that be will be saying, " Peace and Security..." as the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9.
    Man will Not end this great tribulation, and this is why God will have Jesus, as Prince of Peace, step in to bring global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
     
  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I read a piece in the news today about the post war push back against modernity and the founding of American fundamentalism.

    Opinion | The Day Christian Fundamentalism Was Born - The New ...

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/25/.../the-day-christian-fundamentalism-was-born.ht...

    1 day ago - The end of World War I had brought hundreds of thousands of soldiers home ... But for many other Americans, modernity was exactly the problem. .... The Bible of fundamentalism is one Bible; the Bible of modernism is another ...
     
  16. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    For many Americans, it was thrilling to be alive in 1919. The end of World War I had brought hundreds of thousands of soldiers home. Cars were rolling off the assembly lines. New forms of music, like jazz, were driving people to dance. And science was in the ascendant, after helping the war effort. Women, having done so much on the home front, were ready to claim the vote, and African-Americans were eager to enjoy full citizenship, at long last. In a word, life was dazzlingly modern.

    But for many other Americans, modernity was exactly the problem. As many parts of the country were experimenting with new ideas and beliefs, a powerful counterrevolution was forming in some of the nation’s largest churches and Bible institutes. A group of Christian leaders, anxious about the chaos that seemed to be enveloping the globe, recalibrated the faith and gave it a new urgency. They knew that the time was right for a revolution in American Christianity. In its own way, this new movement — fundamentalism — was every bit as important as the modernity it seemingly resisted, with remarkable determination.

    Beginning on May 25, 1919, 6,000 ministers, theologians and evangelists came together in Philadelphia for a weeklong series of meetings. They heard sermons on everything from “Christ and the Present Crisis” to “Why I Preach the Second Coming.” The men and women assembled there believed that God had chosen them to call Christians back to the “fundamentals” of the faith, and to prepare the world for one final revival before Jesus returned to earth. They called their group the World’s Christian Fundamentals Association.

    A Minneapolis Baptist preacher named William Bell Riley organized the meetings. A tall, austere and uncompromising man, Riley was a natural-born crusader, who rarely saw a religious fight he did not think he could win. Under his leadership, the event drew participants from all around the county. Contrary to popular stereotypes, the centers of fundamentalism were in the nation’s major northern and western cities — New York, Chicago, Denver, Los Angeles, Seattle — and not the rural South.

    The men and women at the conference were all white. On questions of race, fundamentalists defended the status quo. African-American and Latino Christians, even when they shared the same theology as their white counterparts, were systematically excluded from fundamentalists’ churches and organizations.

    In many ways, the Philadelphia meeting marked the public beginning of the new fundamentalist movement. “The hour has struck,” Riley declared at the time, “for the rise of a new Protestantism.” He described the inauguration of his organization and the rise of declared at the time, “for the rise of a new Protestantism.” He described the inauguration of his organization and the rise of fundamentalism as more significant than Martin Luther’s posting of the 95 Theses on the church door in Wittenberg, Germany 400 years earlier.

    continued

    Opinion | The Day Christian Fundamentalism Was Born
     
  17. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I'm all in favor of global peace, equality of opportunity, many good and important things, but I think we'd better get on with doing it ourselves instead of waiting for a guy who's already running two thousand years late.
     
  18. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Thanks. Interesting piece of history.

    As you probably know, rigid literal inerrancy in matters outside of faith arose in reaction to the geologists who from the latter 18th century on proposed ages for the earth incompatible with Ussher's chronology, and from other scientific advances in the 19th century, not least evolution, which cast serious doubt on a range of bible stories. But indeed it was in the USA where defense of those stories took deepest root.
     
  19. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    WHY in America?
     
  20. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Probably because of the class structures in Europe, which tended to mean that the ruling classes, even in the churches, were classically educated and would tend to solve a potential problem in more realistic, or realist, terms. For example, Galileo is famous for having been railroaded by the Pope's board of enquiry, but in fact they, and Galileo's buddy the Pope, were willing to depart from the 'bible is correct' view if Galileo could persuade them, the standard of proof being naturally high. And the reason he couldn't was his fault ─ his hypothesis was not yet then fully evidenced, though it was later.
     
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