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Featured Question about John 5:25 and John 5:28-29.Dead people hear Jesus's voice while still dead?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Frank Goad, Oct 15, 2021.

  1. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    You make more and more sense every time. Jesus spirit was with the Father so you could say the video tape was sitting on a shelf somewhere. If Jesus did not have his spirit how could he preach to anyone? I now see a lot more than before
     
  2. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    The mortal body is not capable of knowing anything. It is the spirit that gives it life and knowledge. God breathed into Adam's body and Adam became a living soul. So I think when it says "the dead" it is talking about that part of a person that gives it life. And that is the spirit.It takes both to make a living person who is capable of knowledge and feeling.
     
  3. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Okay, well then, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree, because I think the spirit is eternal and can exist apart from the body, which is not. I wish you well on your quest to find answers.
     
  4. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Oh my head. :openmouth:
     
  5. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    @Frank Goad are you watching this?
    [​IMG]
    It's comical, but you must be even more confused.
    I hope it helps you see why you need to establish one truth at a time. That way, you have a foundation for moving in the right direction.

    Truth.
    1. The soul is the person or animal or the life of the person or animal, depending - Genesis 1:20-23 ; 2:7
    2. The soul dies - Ezekiel 18:4
    3. The spirit from God keeps the soul alive. God does not create the spirit. He sends forth his spirit, and the soul is created. Psalm 104:29, 30
    4. The spirit returns to God at death - Ecclesiastes 12:7
    5. God raises the dead to life, and gives it a body - 1 Corinthians 15:37, 38

    Why are you asking these questions though @Frank Goad?
     
  6. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Hahaaaa! I knew it…. You are a spiritualist!!!

    Yes, believe what you like but knowing the truth is better than wandering about in the wilderness of nonsense.

    It is your very desire to believe the nonsense you claim that leads to devilish and satanic beliefs such as in:
    • Oujie Boards
    • Horoscopes
    • Palmistry
    • ‘Crossing Over’
    • ‘The Sixth Sense’
    • Ghosts (Disembodied Spirits in the living world)
    • Etc.
    Satan attacks (majoritivily) females because of their ‘Eve principle’ - the ability to accept deception due to its seductive lie.

    This exact principle is what is involved in the spiritism that you have involved your belief in.

    Just how you cannot accept the truth that the spirit is DORMANT, INERT, RESTING, with God, is tragic.
     
  7. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Hey soapy. You mention trinitarians. Can you give me your ideas on this subject? Is the Father the only God? Is Jesus God? Are there 1 or 2 or 3 "persons" in God? It is a very hard subject to understand and I would really like to hear what you think about it.
     
  8. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    OK katzpur. I am not ready to give up that fast. You seem to think it is very important that the spirit is aware of what is going on around it after the body has died. Can you share why this is so important? If I agree with this, am I then closer to the truth? What is the next step? I think we can disagree on certain things but still learn from each other. Tell me something to convince me. I will listen with an open mind.
     
  9. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I am convinced that it is important because God told us that acceptance of His Son, Jesus Christ as our Savior is required for salvation and billions of people have died over several thousand years time who have never had the opportunity to even know that Jesus Christ existed, much less believe in the gospel message He taught. Now, I am heard people argue that God will just give all those folks a pass, but that is definitely not what the Bible says. What kind of God would require something of human beings in order that they be saved and then not provide a means for them to do what He's commanded of them. If the spirit continues to exist as a cognizant entity after it leaves a human body, then it could hear, understand, and be free to either accept or reject Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice on its behalf. If the spirit dies along with the physical body, that would be impossible. If you agree, yes, I think you are closer to the truth. If you disagree, that's okay, too, because if I'm right, you, too, will be better able to understand this concept once your spirit has left your body and is awaiting the resurrection in the Spirit World. And if you don't accept it until then, it still won't be too late.

    One thing you need to understand about me is that I'm really not interested in convincing anyone that I'm right and they're wrong. When Jesus asked His Apostles who they believed Him to be, they came up with all kinds of answers, all of which were wrong. Peter alone responded, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God." Jesus commended him for having come to that conclusion and said that flesh and blood had not revealed that truth to him, but His Father in Heaven." What I'm saying is that you shouldn't believe a word I say, even if I were the most intelligent, well-read biblical scholar on earth and the post articulate person you'd ever talked to, if the Holy Spirit did not testify to you that what I was saying is true. The Holy Spirit is the personage within the Godhead whose role it is to witness as to the truth of all things. He is the One you should be listening to. All I or anyone else on this forum or elsewhere can do is present ideas, beliefs and doctrines we believe to be true. But it's your responsibility to figure out for yourself which, if any, of us is right -- and you can't do that by simply going with who presents the most convincing argument. You have every right to ask God directly for answers. When you no longer feel conflicted, and torn between various perspectives, but feel peace and solace in the conclusion that you have come to, you will know that God has spoken to you.
     
  10. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Katzpur, you say not to believe what anyone says and that you should wait until the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to you…

    But, Katzpur, IF THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS REVEALED THE TRUTH TO YOU and you then decide not to believe it…. as I am showing you …. then will if he worse for you come the end of time when we are all judged!!!???

    I say again, the spirit is not DEAD while it is inert, sleeping, dormant, resting with God.

    Yes, I’m aggressive - so was John the Baptist … get over it!!

    It’s inconceivable that despite all the evidence shown to you that RESTING WITH GOD does not mean DEAD, you continue to believe what the holy spiritual did not reveal to you…

    Spiritism is DEVIL WORSHIP!!

    I showed you the definitions but you refuse to accept the truth of it. So how are you expecting that if you are shown even directly from the Holy Spirit that you will believe it….! You won’t!!!!

    Why? Because you have already decided to believe the devil of spiritism where living spirits of DEAD souls roam around either in the physical world or in the ethereal spirit world… neither of which is supported by scriptures!

    Also, I DEFINED to you what ‘DEAD’ means.

    I told you that ‘Dead’ is just a human concept.

    You refuse to understand.

    God and Jesus do not see ‘’demised’ souls BECAUSE it is only humans who do. Because we can no longer interact with a decaying body nor the spirit resting with God, we are completely cut off from that soul.

    We call that ‘DEAD’!!!!!!

    But to God, and to Jesus, and to true believers (which clearly you are not!!) though the BODY is nonfunctional the SPIRIT is still living… and it REMAINS LIVING, though inert inactive resting dormant WITH GOD for ever or until God decides to reinstate it into another body…

    That, Katzpur, means that the Spirit IS ETERNAL with God….!!!

    BUT, Katzpur, GOD CAN DESTROY WHAT HE HAS CREATED… IF HE DESIRES SO!

    You get worried about that? Why? Are you going to dictate to God… Read the story of Jonah after God did not destroy Nineveh!! Understand Jonah’s reaction as to the decision God made… and what God told him!

    God would ONLY DESTROY the spirit if the soul (the person) after a given period of time and full instruction, commands, directions, chances, etc., DID NOT COMPLY… Such would be those who are ‘children of Satan’! …

    SPIRITISM comes into that category!!!

    You are fearful that if your belief is not correct you will be destroyed so you are desperate to believe that your belief is the right one?

    Therefore, a spirit resting with God, is an eternal spirit unless it is destroyed - and only God, who created it or a designated delegate of the power of God (Jesus Christ) - can do so but only after the judgement… Hence even SATANIC DEMINIC ANGELS are not destroyed but held captive in ethereal prison until that judgement against them,

    Katzpur, do you really read your Bible or are you led by some satanic leader who is misleading you? (Your answer will, of course, be that you are not misled… but the truth is that you just don’t know that you are!)
     
  11. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Trinity is an invented term created by those who wished to destroy the church that Jesus set up on earth.

    Satan is by no means sleeping and would not stand by and allow the word of God brought by Jesus Christ to he heard and believed without huge opposition.

    Satan knows that the best and most believable lie is composed of 95% truth. Yes, tell 95% truth about something which can be easily validated and verified … then when all believe what you say, drop in the 5% lie…. It will seem such a small thing at first and so everyone but the most astute and aware will notice.

    To answer you directly:
    1. The Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD
    2. Jesus is neither GOD nor A GOD
    3. There is only one who is God
    Ref 1 is absolutely straightforward and sends an arrow into the hearts and minds of Trinitarians so deeply that their response is to claim variously that Jesus ALSO CLAIMED to be the ONLY TRUE GOD! And/or that Jesus did not wish to overstep the Father at that time so did not include himself as the ONLY TRUE GOD.

    I think you can recognise bullish!t… strangely, many many many others cannot!!

    Oh, another point / do you notice that there is not a THIRD MEMBER in whom we must believe in order to obtain eternal life (John 17:3)??

    Not only the above but Jesus ABSOLUTELY DENIED ‘calling himself God’ when he told the Jews:
    • ‘I only said that God is my Father… how is that blaspheming?’
    The ‘Blaspheming’ reference is because the Jews are ‘supposed’ to have claimed that Jesus, being only a man, was calling himself ‘GOD’ by saying that ‘God is his Father’!!

    The major problem here is that the Jews THEMSELVES ALL ULTIMATELY CLAIM GOD AS THEIR SPIRITUAL FATHER (They claim Abraham as their earthly Father)

    Jesus also paid tribute to his God and Father in everything he did:
    • “For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.” (John 12:49)
    And by the way, the ‘SENDING’ was AFTER Jesus was ANOINTED at the river Jordan WITH the holy oil: the Spirit of God:
    • “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.“ (Acts 10:37-38)
    Notice that Jesus was EMPOWERED by the anointing…. And check what happened at PENTECOST: The Apostles were ANOINTED with the Holy Spirit and ALSO ACQUIRED GREAT POWERS although limited in each individual: Jesus had no sin si gained respect fullness of the Fathers Spirit. The apostles were apportioned powers according to their sin status… those with less sun gained greater powers… think of any analogy with ‘sin’ as bad filling in the vessel and power as the liquid being put into the vessel: The less sin the greater the power liquid!!!

    Ref 3. The Bible tells us absolutely that:
    • ‘GOD IS ONE GOD… Beside him there is no other’
    Trinity tries to claim that there are three persons who are this ONE GOD and because they are all the one GOD they are NOT NEXT TO EACH OTHER… thereby maintaining the veracity of ‘one God’ and ‘no other god beside him’… but this is just word twisting because scriptures tells us clearly that GOD RAISED UP Jesus to Heaven and Seated Jesus NEXT TO HIM!!!

    Notice that there is no THIRD PERSON….!

    Notice also that when the first martyr, Stephen, was being stoned to death, he saw in vision, HEAVEN… and saw …. ONLY GOD seated on the throne and Jesus STANDING next to him (next to GOD!).

    Important: Seated is kingly - Standing next to is SUPPORTIVE position and stance!

    AND… where is the third PERSON OF THE TRINITY.

    The fact: There is no trinity and that is why it is such a difficult ideology to understand… IN FACT no one every has understood it… hence it is classed as:
    • A mystery
    • Unfathomable
    • INCOMPREHENSIBLE
    Although the last in the list seems obvious in decrying a belief, the word only means ‘not able to be understood easily’ BUT it actually is a very powerful put down - an unfortunate choice of word used by Trinitarians about their own ideology!!!
     
  12. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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  13. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    I cannot and will not say you are wrong. I would just mention two Bible verses. In John 10:30 Jesus says he and the Father are ONE. Would that not make him at least a part of God? And in John 20:28 Jesus is called "my lord and my God". Just makes you think.
     
  14. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    I 100% agree that those people who lived and died without the chance to learn about Jesus should have a chance. But I wonder if that chance is while their physical bodies are dead. Jesus said he is coming back to earth to be its king for 1000 years, All the dead will be raised from their graves. Their spirits will return to their physical bodies. They will then have the chance to live on earth with Jesus for 1000 years and learn everything they need to be saved.Until then their spirits are like the VHS tapes sitting on a shelf at Blockbuster. Useless until they are returned to the machine that can play them.
     
  15. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Earth is going to be a mighty crowded place if that's how it unfolds. Can you even begin to imagine how it's going to be with over 100 billion people alive on earth for 1000 years? I don't believe that's what the Millennium is all about, but if you do, that's fine.

    Keep one thing in mind. In 2 Corinthians 5:2-4, we read, "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

    These verses illustrate that a spirit need not be resident within a physical body in order to have very intense learning experiences. I'm not sure why you are assuming that the spirit must be in-dwelling within a body in order for growth and knowledge to take place.
     
    #95 Katzpur, Oct 23, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
  16. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    NO….

    There are two fundamental problems with the trinitarian claim.
    1. Being ‘one’ with the Father JUST MEANS THAT THEY AGREE WITH EACH OTHER. What the Father states, the Son agrees! There is no controversy between them. The statements, commands, rulings, directions, truths, etc., come FROM THE FATHER : He is the initiator and the Son is the recipient. There is never a reverse situation and this should be obvious from:
      1. Father’: first cause; rule maker; life giver; head;
      2. Son’: Doer of the works of the Father; he who is led by the spirit of the Father
    2. Note carefully that trinity defines God as three persons. You read in that claim and in many other places where trinity claims Jesus is God, that there are ONLY TWO mentioned… There is nowhere stated a THIRD trinity compliant person:
      1. ‘I and the Father’: Two
      2. ‘I am going to the Father’: Two
      3. ‘I was sent by the Father’: Two
      4. ‘The words I speak are not mine but those of him who sent me’: Two
      5. ‘Eternal life depends on believing in [the Father as] the only true God; and in Jesus Christ whom [the Father] sent’: Two
      6. ‘Stephen, looking in vision saw heaven open and saw GOD seated on the throne and Jesus STANDING next to him’: Two
      7. John, taken in spirit to heaven, saw: ‘Him who SAT on the throne… and the lamb as though slaughtered, STANDING in the front and centre AMONG the elders (among the human patriarchs): Two
    It is only when challenged that Trinitarians suddenly devise ‘reasons’ why there isn’t a compliant third person of the supposed united trinity God! In other words, when a trinitarian speaks of HIS GOD, he will only speak of TWO persons: Jesus and the Father; because scriptures never speaks of three ‘God’ persons at any time. And, in EVERY SUPPOSED PROOF of a trinity, you will see that it is an ADDED or MODIFIED verse attempting to justify a trinity:
    • There are three in heaven who testify; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And these three are one’ (1 John 5:7)
      • Absolute false verse attempting to validate trinity. Widely DISCREDITED and now only found in the most hardline trinity readings!!
    • Baptise in the name of the Father, in the name of the Son, and in the name of the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 28:19)
      • Testament to the fact this is a false verse is that NOWHERE is anyone said to be baptised in this way. The apostles ONLY EVER baptised in the name of Jesus: one name… not the three. Excuses that the name of Jesus stands for ‘All three deities’ is a wretched claim straight out of desperation field!
    What a long explanation just to discredit a simple lie!

    ‘My Lord and My God’…. Are you really going to say you believe that Thomas SAW THE ETERNAL GOD (despite Jesus saying that no one has seen God at any time…!) and even TOUCHED the eternal God who said to Thomas: “I AM NOT A SPIRIT… Touch me, I have flesh and bone:
    • “See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” (Luke 24:39)
    You are going to say to me you believe that Thomas was seeing ALMIGHTY GOD and ALMIGHTY GOD told Thomas that He (A G) is flesh and bone???

    Not only that but what was the reaction of the other ten disciples: Were they of the same belief as Thomas: that if was ALMIGHTY GOD in the room with them…, or did they say to Thomas:
    • “So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” (John 29:29)
    Is it not clear that they were all speaking of the Jesus they had an intimate relationship with … the Jesus who had told them he would be risen again - and the ten were validating that claim made by Jesus.

    Thomas’ expulsion of words at seeing and touching the risen Christ Jesus does not validate a claim that he was seeing and touching ALMIGHTY GOD!

    It is merely Trinitarians who must seek out every effort to claim that Jesus is God that presses this fallacious claim into the minds of vulnerable believers…

    And check this: What happened immediately after this encounter????

    They all WENT BACK TO THEIR DAY JOBS!!!!!

    Think about that and marry it with the claim that “ONLY THOMAS” is supposed to have made!
     
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