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Featured Question about John 5:25 and John 5:28-29.Dead people hear Jesus's voice while still dead?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Frank Goad, Oct 15, 2021.

  1. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    What is your definition of the word, ‘Immortal’?
     
  2. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Jesus did not say, ‘You will be with in paradise today’ or ‘today you will be with me in paradise’.

    Those are words WRONGLY TAUGHT TO PEOPLE by Trinitarians…. And that is because they want to say that Jesus never died!!!

    Think carefully about it. No one is raised from the dead until after their judgement BY Jesus AT the end of time.

    But there are those who are already judged as worthy for the kingdom of God. These are called THE ELECT.

    The thief (called, ironically, the Good thief!!) was absolved of his sins by Jesus almost as he died therefore he did not commit any further sin: he was therefore ‘sinless’ in the eyes of God

    The ‘good thief’ was not one of the Elect therefore he would only be raised up at the SECOND RESURRECTION. Jesus will call him forward and say, “You have no sin… welcome to the kingdom - enter MY paradise, my Son!”

    Paradise is the created world that God prophesied the world would be from the beginning of time - what he commanded Adam to make all over from the sample garden of Eden.

    It is therefore impossible that anyone should rise from the dead THAT DAY and be in Paradise before Jesus who was dead for three days from the day he spoke the supposed words!!!

    Please…. Jesus said: ‘I TELL TOU THIS DAY…. You will be with me in paradise’.

    Explaining: ‘This very day I say to you, I am the resurrection and the life. I have been given the task of judging the world. Those who I find guilty will go to destruction - but those I deem sinless or worthy at least I will grant everlasting life. You, at this moment, are guiltless, sinless, THEREFORE when I judge you at the end of time YOU WILL BE JUDGED WORTHY and be granted life in paradise with me!’

    Try understanding the trinitarian version makes no sense at all….!! Arguments is all raises:
    1. How can anyone be in paradise on the say jesus died ahead of Jesus who was dead for three days?
    2. If Jesus was dead fur three days how was he preaching to the dead of Noah’s era?
    3. Jesus was the first raised from the dead… how did the thief enter paradise on the same day Jesus died?
    See, and there is no answer but arguments - because the trinitarian wants to say Jesus was God and couldn’t die… yet we commemorate Jesus’ death yearly: isn’t that an irony….!!! He didn’t did but we commemorate his dying to pay the penalty for the sin of the world!!!! So if he didn’t die how was the penalty paid ….
     
  3. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

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    1. Because Jesus was dead bodily..his soul never died, just as our souls never die.
    2.The thief was in heaven with Jesus that day. Jesus' human body was still in the tomb
    3. If Jesus preached to the souls in Hades, which is somewhat debatable, it had to be sometime within the 3 days.
    Third question, see answer #2.
     
  4. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Thank you so much. I really like your last line. This mortal must put on immortality. That means that the mortal is NOT automatically immortal but must put on immortality. Most people say they have an immortal soul. But this verse is saying they do not have an immortal soul but must do something to put on that immortallity. The spirit can become immortal but it is not automatically immortal. Thanks for proving my point.
     
  5. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Immortal means not subject to death. But if something is destroyed it is dead. Maybe it did not die of natural causes but it is still dead. If a person falls into a vat of burning oil and is burned to ashes, you could say they did not die but they are still dead.If God destroys a spirit you might say it did not die but it is still dead. And if it is dead then it was not immortal. Other than this, I agree with most of what you say. But I believe nothing is immortal except God and can find no Bible verse that says anything is immortal except God. We are realyy not far apart in our beliefs as it seems. Just the use of the word immortal.
     
  6. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

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    Did you perhaps read the verse in context?
    I'm not sure what your view is, but we all will be immortal when we die. In other words the body died, but the soul doesn't. You can argue about soul sleep if you like, but either way it doesn't die.

    50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
    in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

    So it's not us doing anything it's God changing us, whether we are dead or alive at that time.
     
  7. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Seems we don't have the same understanding of immortality.
    I understand immortality to mean - cannot die / indestructibility / imperishable.

    The only one described that way in the Bible is Jehovah God himself. - Psalms 90:1, 2; Habakkuk 1:12
    However, God promised to endow faithful annointed sons with this possession. That would be the resurrected son of God, and those resurrected to heavenly life.
    Romans 6:9 ; Hebrews 7:16, 17 ; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 ; Revelation 1:17, 18 ;

    All faithful ones who are not annointed as son of God, to heavenly life, are promised eternal life - not immortality... (just like the angels who are not immortal, but can be destroyed).
    They have everlasting life as mortals - not immortals.

    These faithful ones live on earth... in the flesh. Not as spirit beings.
    They can die or be destroyed, but an immortal being cannot die or be destroyed. They are indestructible. They become like God, in that respect.

    The spirit that keeps man alive is not an entity, but the spirit of God. It issues from him, and returns to him, not as a living being, but as spirit of God.
    God did not create it. It is part of him. (Psalm 104:29, 30)

    That's how I understand it.
    I guess we are not seeing eye to eye on this one. That's okay. We aren't going to be united in the same line of thought if we are not taught from the same source.
     
  8. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Yes, all dead people will be raised from their graves when Christ returns. But you miss what happens next. All will be judged and those not worthy will be cast into the lake of fire. And what does fire do? It destroys things. The wicked will be destroyed. Only those who are worthy will gain immortality. Nothing in the Bible says that everyone will be immortal. It says the wicked will be destroyed and is certainly not immortality. I repeat if you can find one verse that says everyone will be immortal or all souls are immortal or anything like that I will be happy to see it. But it actually says the soul that sins will die. And anything that can die is not immortal.
     
  9. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

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    What do you do with the rich man and Lazareth story? Did Jesus really just make up a whole realm of the afterlife just for a good story? Methinks he was correcting the Jewish view of the afterlife.
    Notice that there's no waiting until the resurrection, they immediately go to paradise or hades. And the rich man is still alive there not destroyed.
     
  10. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Paradise is not Heaven…. The souls of the dead are DORMANT resting with GOD. Yes, Jesus’ soul (his Spirit - not his body) was ALSO resting with God:
    • ‘Father, into thy hands I commit my SPIRIT!’
    It could hardly be that Jesus commits his spirit to God and then was walking around in history teaching the souls of Noah’s time before the last was given… no! That is one of this trinitarian additions added to make out that Jesus wasn’t dead…
    That really stupid claim: ‘Only his body was dead !!!’ Jesus’ body and spirit is no different to any other persons EXCEPT that Jesus had no sin. So just as every one who does, so if was with Jesus: The body is unsupported by the spirit and do starts on a journey of decay… the spirit goes to rest in dormancy with God.

    On the third say GOD replaced Jesus’ spirit back into the not yet decayed body of Jesus and the body was made a living body again.

    Heaven! The last place for the righteous is PARADISE…. Not Heaven!

    Heaven is for the ELECT ‘whom were chosen from before the foundation of the world’.

    Does no one know they’re scriptures???
     
  11. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    This is an ALLEGORY…

    It is not a REALITY…

    What’s up with you guys???
     
  12. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    It is true that there is no such thing as an immortal SOUL… this is very bad church teaching.

    The confusion is that the SPIRIT of a person is an ever living spirit UNLESS IT IS DESTROYED BY THE POWER OF GOD!

    The body without the spirit is nothing… it can do nothing of itself and therefore decays…. We all know that. But what happens to the spirit of the dead… it is not DEAD!!! It cannot DIE…. But it can be destroyed!!!

    Have you not followed the explanation in these posts.

    Definition: Immortal… Not capable of DYING!!!!

    Just because it cannot DIE does not mean it Cannot be DESTROYED BY GOD.

    Reality check: How is the spirit of EVIL done away with at the end of time?

    Jesus DESTROYS IT…

    Do you get it yet…

    Even IMMORTAL can be DESTROYED BY ITS MAKER!!

    Satan cannot DIE!!!!!! But he can be DESTROYED!

    Evil spirit is created by SATAN… GOD CREATED ‘the Angel who BECAME a Satan’…

    Only GOD can destroy Satan and the evil spirits Satan created!
     
  13. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

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    Heaven and Paradise are the same place.. in the presence of God. It really doesn't matter what the actual location is, if it even is a location as we think of it. Now, yes, heaven will eventually be on earth, but it's not yet. There's nothing that says spirits with God has to do nothing but rest and Jesus could certainly go into hades whenever he wanted...he was God you know. Right on the third day Jesus' soul re entered his body, but it was then his glorified body.
     
  14. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

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    So Jesus confused everyone and us by creating a bogus reality just to make a point? I don't think so.
     
  15. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Ok, so you are deluded… I understand… this is a common problem with none believers!

    I won’t trouble you more as it would be a waste of time…

    Just pointing this out though:
    • Heaven is a spirit world
    • Paradise is an earthly (flesh) world
     
  16. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    You must be one of them who walked away after Jesus told a parable - not understand the spiritual message behind it.

    Oh boy! What am I doing among these nuance-heads calling themselves Christians!!! Or maybe you don’t!!!

    The story of JOB in the O.T. is an allegory. It is designed to make a point using common themes known to those of the time… it is not meant to be REAL!!!!

    So also was the story of the rich and the poor man! It’s not to say there wasn’t ever a rich and poor man wherein the rich man mistreated the poor man… it happens ALL THE TIME.

    The story is showing that a person with present privilege who doesn’t care about those without (even treating his dogs better than a human being) will get their die reward of negativeness in the after life.
    The rich man would rather feed his dogs than aid a poor man.., so when he died the allegory rests on the rich man going to hell and the poor man going to heaven. There the ‘comfort positions’ are reversed.

    The rich man cries out for mercy… but as he didn’t give any in his life on earth so he doesn’t get any in the allegorical afterlife.

    Further, he tries to warn his relatives to be kind but this is dismissed by the Angel who reminds him that since no one believed a living person who gave them righteous ways to live… how are they going to believe a warning from a spirit from the dead !!

    Ars you really telling me that you cannot see the allegory in the story??

    (if there are any spelling mistakes I’m sorry - I got an eye problem right now!!)
     
  17. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

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    Says who?
    And I'm a believer.
     
  18. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

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    Oh please! Jesus didn't create an allegorical afterlife just to make a point. And in the other parables, the settings were true to life. They were not fantasy world's.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  19. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    If you are a believer then believe!!!

    Stop saying foolish things and holding to nonsense!!
     
  20. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

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    Believe what?
    Your made up nonsense?
    No thanks!
     
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