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Featured Question about jesus

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Frank Goad, Dec 23, 2018.

  1. Sharikind

    Sharikind Active Member

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    So please explain your view point about a possible resurrection for yourself. (Or others.)
     
  2. Sharikind

    Sharikind Active Member

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    I don't believe the Kabbalah (or the book of Enoch) is a word of God. Who says they are?
     
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  3. Sharikind

    Sharikind Active Member

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    As God he never left heaven? How many persons are there in your God?
     
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  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I find the whole Bible interesting and when questions arise, allowing the scriptures themselves to answer provides proof of its internal harmony.

    Solomon was unique as ruler in Israel because he was blessed with Godly wisdom and his writings manifest a deep understanding of the futility of this life. If this is all there is, what is the point of it?

    Solomon often lamented about the many ways that this life results in futility. Why work hard if all you have worked for will be passed on to those who do not appreciate your efforts enough to even value them? We are no better off than the animals because death overtakes all of us....but in the beginning, this was not the case. Humans were designed to live forever in mortal flesh on earth. God provided the means...but when they disobeyed, those means were taken away until his will was accomplished here.

    "Under the sun" is a way of describing life in this world. No one will ever have to live in this world ever again because God will remove it.....he will not remove the planet, but the governmental system ruling it. God's Kingdom is the "new heavens" that will rule the "new earth" (2 Peter 3:13) The Kingdom will come to forcibly remove every last vestige of satanically inspired human rulership (Daniel 2:44) and replace them as the world's only government.

    Where will I find this idea in scripture? This is not what the Bible teaches.
    When Christ is earths ruler, then all the dead are called from their graves....."both the righteous and the unrighteous". (John 5:28-29) Only after their resurrection are they judged. The unrighteous ones are given a period of judgment, many being educated in God's ways for the first time.
    The wicked however, are not resurrected. They remain in eternal death. God has no reason or desire to keep the wicked alive, nor to torture them.

    It is good to reflect on God's laws to his people....there were no prisons or torture prescribed by God for any crime committed. Capital crimes had the death penalty which meant that those guilty would never commit another offense. Those whose victims suffered loss were compensated by the perpetrator. It was a very fair system. God has no reason to torture anyone.

    This is entirely foreign to me.
    I cannot speak of the Creator and evolution in the same sentence as if they are not diametrically opposed. How does one come to a conclusion such as this by scripture? God's word is my guide always, just as it was for Jesus.

    The first death is the one we inherited from Adam....we return to the dust, but it is completely reversible by resurrection. The second death is not reversible. Once a person is consigned to the second death it is permanent. There is no consciousness to suffer any torment. The only spirits in existence at that point are the faithful angels and those chosen to rule with Christ in his kingdom. Once satan and his hordes are consigned to the lake of fire (another term synonymous with Gehenna) they are destroyed forever.

    What dividing are you speaking about. Those in the lake of fire cease to exist. Fire destroys utterly....it is a fitting symbol.

    Since the resurrection is back to a life in a physical body here on earth for the majority of redeemed mankind, the plans of the dead are indeed lost until God sees fit to return them to life. Then their plans will align with God's plans for their future, and for the future of life wherever God plans for it to go in his vast universe. I don't believe that he created it simply for nothing....do you? (Isaiah 45:18)
     
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  5. Sharikind

    Sharikind Active Member

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    Additionally, many people make plans in their lifetimes they would never make in God's new earth. Because they wouldn't need to or want to.
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    True. You only have to look at the change in lifestyle brought about by the disobedience in Eden. From being in paradise surroundings with every kind of delicious fruit imaginable there for the taking....to having to sweat it out, toiling hard for the soil to even produce enough grain to make bread. I can only imagine how much they must have lamented their decision. Their whole life was turned upside down and the children they had would never have known what life was like in the garden.

    As it turned out, they got to complete only part of the mandate that God repeated to Noah. He told them to also..."Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth".....but this time there was no command to "subdue the earth". God knew that the turning of the whole earth into paradise conditions would have to wait until his Kingdom was ruling in the hands of his Christ, once all things had been accomplished to undo the damage Adam had done.

    As for Matthew 7:21-23....I had never had that scripture brought to my attention before either. Once I realized that this was talking about those who claim Jesus as their Lord, I understood that not all who claim to be Christians really are. So what laws are these ones breaking? I was eager to find out.
     
  7. Sharikind

    Sharikind Active Member

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    I was actually relieved when someone taught me right from wrong. It took a while and I was constantly making sure, going to libraries and checking things out. Never been sorry. Nice talking with you.
     
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  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It is richly rewarding. Since you express sound Bible teaching, do you mind telling me who were your teachers?
     
  9. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Enoch, as I am sure you will know, was the only exception of all mankind, who is recorded in the word of God, as having been taken to the very throne of Godhead, see Genesis 5: 23; and in Hebrew 11: 5; you will see that he was translated in order that he should never experience death. To translate something, you change it from one form to another. Is there a greater man recorded in the Bible than Enoch?

    Elijah was also taken to heaven without experience death, but it was Enoch who was ANOINTED as the heir to the throne of Godhead

    The Books of Enoch, from which Jesus and his apostles taught, were held in great reverence by many of the church fathers, including Irenaeus, Origen and Tertullian, and cherished by the early christians up until the 4th century, when under the ban of such dogmatic religious authorities of the Church of Emperor Constantine, as Jerome, Hilary and Augustine, the words of righteous Enoch, finally passed out of circulation and were thought to be lost for millennia.

    The stone that the builders of the Christian church rejected, has turned out to be the most important stone of all.

    The oldest COPIES of the Book of Enoch, dating from the third century BCE, were discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls

    Among the Dead Sea Scrolls were a number of manuscripts of the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, including ten manuscripts of the Book of Enoch in the original Aramaic (until then copies were extant only in an Ethiopic translation of a Greek translation of a Semitic original), which were vital to answering many questions about its origins. Dating of the manuscripts by their script shows that certain parts of Enoch are at least as old as the third century BCE.

    I believe, and will later reveal, that there is ample evidence to support the belief that the original Books of Enoch, the latest COPIES of which were discovered among the Dead Sea scrolls, date back much earlier than the 5th century, and that the originals were taken from Egypt, the land of first born, by Moses.

    Genesis 5: 23; Enoch was 365 and had spent his life in fellowship with God when he disappeared because God had Taken him.

    Hebrews 11: 5; "By faith Enoch was Translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him.

    Enoch, the most important man in the OT and the NT, and yet he has been rejected by both the Jewish church and the Roman church of Emperor Constantine.

    Moses, who was the adopted grandson of Pharaoh and who would have been afforded the best education in the country, may have been initiated into the circle of the guardians of the sacred secrets.

    Moses took the bread or the sacred teachings of Egypt [The land of First Born] and removed the yeast and gave to the children of Israel the regulations, rules and laws, that the Israelites were to keep for all time. --------- In one of the religious regulations established by Moses, Aaron would place his hand upon the head of a scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of Israel to the goat, which was then sent out into the wilderness to Azazel. What or who, is this Azazel?

    In the margins of the Good News Catholic Study Bible, Leviticus 16: concerning “Azazel” it is written by the Catholic authors of the GNB; ‘AZAZEL’ “The meaning of this Hebrew word is unknown: it may be the name of a desert demon.” ‘Azazel’ see Leviticus16: 8.

    The Orthodox religious organisations are ignorant as to who Azazel is, because they have rejected the books of Enoch.

    Concerning Azazel, one of the Sons of God who descended as Observers, or Watchers as Enoch calls them, we read in the Book of Enoch the prophet, chapter 9 to chapter 10; “And Michael said to the heavenly Lord, "Seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and has revealed the eternal secrets which were preserved in heaven, which men were striving to learn. And Semjaza, to whom you have given authority to bear rule over his associates (The other 199 sons of God) and they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth and have slept with them and revealed to them all kinds of sin etc.

    Semjaza, the leader of the observers, taught enchantments, and root cutting, among other sons of God who revealed to the women all kinds of sin, were Armaros, who taught the resolving of enchantments, Baralqual taught astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon, etc.

    But Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tintures etc.

    Tubal-Cain, was from an age of man prior to Seth, who is the first in the line of descendants from Adam according to the genealogy recorded in Genesis 5: and Tubal-Cain had been an instructor of every artificer in brass and iron, which knowledge was stored in heaven when that age came to its end)

    The Lord, through his only begotten prophet Enoch, then passed judgment on the angels who had forsaken their own original habitat and came down and defiled themselves with the daughters of men, saying to them; “You have been in heaven, but all the mysteries had not yet been revealed to you, and you knew only worthless ones, and these in the hardness of your hearts you have made known to the women, and through these mysteries women and men work much evil on earth.”

    They were then to be bound and cast into the valley of the earth until seventy generations had passed, (Jesus was seventy generations from Enoch, see Luke 3: 23-38) but Azazel was punished separate from the others, See the Book of Enoch the Prophet 10: 4-9; “And again the Lord said to Raphael: Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening 5) in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may 6,7) not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the 8) Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted 9) through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin. "TO HIM (AZAZEL) ASCRIBE ALL SIN."

    It was from the records of Enoch, that Moses received the regulations, rules and laws, of the new religion, which included the religious regulation where Aaron would place his hand upon the head of a scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of Israel to the goat, which was then sent out into the wilderness to Azazel, the Son of God to whom all sin is to be ascribed.

    The fact that Jude the half brother to Jesus was allowed in the biblical cannon to quote verbatim from the words of righteous Enoch as the word of God, then we also have been given the right to see, and quote from his words, as the word of God.

    But please feel free to reject the anointed one who was in the valley of man for three days (Three periods of one thousand years) before being reborn on earth as the man Jesus, over whom death had no power.
     
  10. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark

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    The other Lazarus does not save your argument either. It is clear that when Jesus says he is sleeping he is indicating that his condition is temporary. When the disciples ask for clarification of what he means Jesus tells them plainly:

    "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. " John 11:14

    Allegorisation ignoring plain meaning

    There are a great many NT passages that indicate a conscious existence for believers following death:
    2 Cor 5:8;Phil 1:23;Luke 23:43;Heb 12:23;Rev 6:9-11;Rev 7:9-10

    Moses and Elijah and Enoch are clearly OT figures in a conscious relationship with Jesus. As Jesus indicates to the Sadducees:

    "I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob".."He is not the God of the dead, but of the Living." Matt 22:32

    In the parable of Luke 16 Abraham and Lazarus and the rich man are all conscious.
     
  11. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark

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    Jesus taught that death was temporary like sleep and then proved it.

    Jesus said I am the God of the Living and then spoke about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Hebrews talks about a great crowd of witnesses to our earthly endeavours (the church invisible). The mainstream doctrine of the church has never been soul sleep.

    True about Tartarus not Hades, I stand corrected on that.

    John wrote the final version at the end of the reign of Domitian but there were probably earlier draft. I am not a Preterist but it is clear that Johns letters to the seven churches are to first century situations so not sure what does not apply to first century means.

    Vision as in what the disciples had seen in a literal historical place and time. Not vision as in shared hallucination.
     
  12. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark

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    The mainstream interpretation of the church of what Jesus said is that there is a literal heaven and hell. There is a difference between spirit preaching to spirits in tartarus and resurrection.

    Annihilationism is also not a fair reading of the whole of scripture nor mainstream teaching.
     
  13. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark

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    God is One , God is Three. Jesus is fully God and fully Man in the same person. Since God is omnipresent and man is not. Jesus was both in heaven and not in heaven.
     
  14. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    DEEJE Wrote...……."Under the sun" is a way of describing life in this world. No one will ever have to live in this world ever again because God will remove it.....he will not remove the planet, but the governmental system ruling it. God's Kingdom is the "new heavens" that will rule the "new earth" (2 Peter 3:13) The Kingdom will come to forcibly remove every last vestige of satanically inspired human rulership (Daniel 2:44) and replace them as the world's only government.

    Since the resurrection is back to a life in a physical body here on earth for the majority of redeemed mankind, the plans of the dead are indeed lost until God sees fit to return them to life. Then their plans will align with God's plans for their future, and for the future of life wherever God plans for it to go in his vast universe. I don't believe that he created it simply for nothing....do you?

    The Anointed...……. You have said that the resurrection is back to life in a physical body here on earth, which is under the sun, whereas Solomon, in his Satirical work (Ecclesiastes) says that you will never take part in anything that happens under the sun.

    Make your mind up my friend.
     
  15. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Thank you for your reply.
    Of course, Peter and company were Not dead, but simply in deep sleep at this time.
    I am wondering which translation you used for Luke 9:32 ____________________
    KJV does Not mention 'vision' at Luke 9:32, also the Greek Interlinear does not say 'vision' at Luke 9:32.
    The Greek Interlinear does use the word ' vision ' at Matthew 17:9 thus confirming what is in Luke is a 'vision'.
    The ' glory time ' of Luke 9:31-32 is the coming ' glory time ' of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
    So, the transfiguration was a vision, or a visionary picture for us of Jesus' future coming time of glory.
     
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  16. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find at Psalms 90:2 that God is from everlasting.... (No beginning )
    I find at Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 B that pre-human Jesus had a beginning.
    So, only God was before the beginning. Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
    Also, at Revelation 3:12 the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him.
    Three persons would need three thrones, and I only find two thrones mentioned at Revelation 3:21.
     
  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    The Lazarus of John 11:11-14 is a 4-day dead person whom Jesus likens death to sleep.
    Sure God is a God of the living, and because of the Resurrection Hope those faithful dead will live again.
    Because God promised the Resurrection is why God can consider those dead as already being alive.
    King David had God's favor yet according to Acts of the apostles 2:34 David is Not yet resurrected.
    Also, I find John the baptist is still in his grave - Matthew 11:11.

    To which 'heavens ' did Elijah ascend __________
    Jesus did Not lie when he said No man has ascended at John 3:13.
    The 'ascending in the wind storm to the heavens' of 1 Kings 2:11 was the mid-heavens where the birds fly.
    A wind storm could only exist in the atmosphere of the mid-heavens, not beyond.
    So, Elijah was simply ' transferred ' from one place to another place. see 2 Chronicles 21:1; 2 Chronicles 21:12-15.
    Elijah still alive because Elijah was alive on Earth years later when he wrote to King Jehoram.
    So, it is just as Jesus confirms at John 3:13 Elijah was Not dead.

    God simply took Enoch before his enemies could. Took in the sense of cutting short his life.
    That too as in the case of Moses, that God disposed of Moses body.
    I find at Hebrews 11:13 that Enoch ( verse 5) did Not get the fulfillment of the promises as of yet.
    That is because the resurrection of Acts of the Apostles 24:15 has Not yet taken place.
     
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  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find the definition of a parable is a story or an illustration and Not a real happening.

    I find the people of Revelation 7:9-10 are also the living people of Revelation 7:14
    Living people because they come through the coming great tribulation alive.

    Revelation 6:9-11 those 'slaughtered souls' and Not disembodied souls as non-biblical people think.
    They are part of the first or earlier resurrection of Revelation 20:6; 2:10; 3:5; 4:4; 1 Peter 1:4
    Being martyred (sacrificed, so to speak) when resurrected they leave Earth behind - 1 Corinthians 15:50.

    Those of Hebrews 12:22-24 are part of 'heavenly Jerusalem' (Galatians 4:26; Revelation 20:6)
    They are Not part of that 'great cloud of witnesses' of Hebrews 11:4-39; Hebrews 12:1.
    Those listed in chapter 11 did Not yet receive the promise - promise of a resurrection - Hebrews 11:13,39

    Philippians 1:23 is addressing those with a heavenly hope - Philippians 1:1
    2 Corinthians 5:8 is also addressing those with a heavenly calling.
    The judgement seat of Christ includes both. The first fruits of 1 Corinthians 15:20,22.
    And the judgement seat at the soon coming 'time of separating' of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40 to take place on Earth.
    There is a final judgement on Earth before the start of Jesus' 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth begins.

    As far as Luke 23:43 is concerned, I find Jesus was No, Not ever resurrected on the day he died.
    Jesus went to biblical hell (the temporary grave) on the day Jesus died - see Acts of the Apostles 2:27.
    God did Not resurrect Jesus on the day Jesus died. No Scripture says Jesus was resurrected the day he died.
     
  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Mainstream Bible as far as Psalms 92:7 says the wicked will be 'destroyed forever'.
    Those who bring ruin to Earth will be brought to ruin as per Revelation 11:18 B.
    The executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of wickedness - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16
    Proverbs 2:21-22 tells us who remains.

    I find the Bible does teach about a literal heaven and a literal hell.
    The difference is that false clergy teach a false literal hell of fire of burning forever and ever.
    Whereas, the 'Bible's hell' is just mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead.
    The dead know No pain but just sleep as per Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; 146:4 and see Isaiah 38:18.
    Please notice at Revelation 20:13-14 that after everyone in biblical hell (grave) is ' delivered up ' (meaning resurrected out of biblical hell ) then, emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated biblical hell.
    This is why 1 Corinthians 15:26 says that even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth - Isaiah 25:8.
     
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  20. Sharikind

    Sharikind Active Member

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    That cannot be when you have a man-god praying to a nonman-god. Your God, while you say it is omnipresent, is three persons. The Trinity does not make sense.
     
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