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Featured Question about God and hell

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Frank Goad, Aug 8, 2021.

  1. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    What is this "breath of life" if not spirit. Do you think God gave Adam mouth to mouth resuscitation?
    If you don't think that then man is body and spirit. Other places in the Bible tell us of the spirit of man and that it even knows our mind. (1Cor 2:11)

    Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
    I quote Matt 10:28 and JWs want to speak about Gehenna and not that it shows we have a soul that survives the death of the body.

    Luke 16 may be a parable but it speaks of what most of the Jews would have believed at the time and probably showed what Jesus believed also. You should not have to deny the reality of the scriptures for the sake of your doctrines.

    The story says that Samuel spoke and Saul spoke to Samuel etc. There is nothing about demons there except what you want to read into the passage because of your doctrines. According to the Bible it was Samuel and not demons.

    I doubt that a spirit is male or female but also I don't think it matters that "spirit" is neuter. That does not tell us about it being alive.
    As I have already mentioned, our spirit knows our mind and so that indicates life.
    In what you said you seem to be agreeing with me that we have a spirit and are not just dust. The part that was made is made from dust however and the life that comes from God is not made but is life and not just a dead it.
    Without a spiritual part of us that exists and contains the essence of what we are there can be no resurrection. Our spiritual part gets returned into a body and so the same person is resurrected.
    If God just made a copy of a person it would just be a copy and not the same person. I know that because I know that if God made a copy of me now it would not be me, it would just be a copy.
    It is only if this part of us is safe in God's hands that we have a prospect of future life.
    This would be why Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were alive still.
    The death of the body is not the death of the spirit part of us and the Bible teaches that and nowhere teaches that we go out of existence at death.
     
  2. wellwisher

    wellwisher Well-Known Member

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    One way to understand this is to use an analogy based on shades of gray. If we started with a pure snow white background, even the lightest gray pencil line would create a contrast that we can see.

    If we then use this same light gray pencil, and write on a pure black background, it will look white and not gray. Your eyes will see the same light gray color, differently, on white and black, due to the different contrasts. You would need about a light-medium gray pencil before it stops looking white on the black background.

    The evil associated with hell is like a black social background. It will cause, mild sin; light gray, to appear like good behavior, based on the extreme contrast. For example, in a world of heartless cruelty, where life is not only killed, but tortured, if someone only cut off only your baby finger, you would be thankful for their mercy. It will still hurt, but it could have been so much worse for hours.

    If on the other hand, you lived in the perfect place where everyone is good; white background, and someone cut off your baby finger, this same medium gray action would seem almost black; evil, due to the contrast of medium gray on white.

    In the philosophy of Jesus, to love your enemy, the mercy of the first scenario; medium gray and black, due to the contrast with black; darkness, would allow you to love that enemy who hurt you. While the second scenario, white background and same medium gray, could trigger angry self righteousness, so you lose your love.

    In a sense, the darkness of hell allows one to see the goodness of others, within their moderate sins, so we can find inner peace through love.
     
  3. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    God did not write the Bible. The Bible is a creation of mankind. That is who it reflects, not God. All one has to do is Question, instead of accept, and the flaws pop up.

    God is big on what is. What is stares us all in the face. The Real Truth and the Real Answers are staring us all in the face. How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how? Can you see??

    You can understand more about someone through their actions than anything else. God's actions stare us in the face. God's actions can not be altered as with holy books written by mankind.

    God has never ever needed or used any holy book. On the other hand, religion is a catalyst that brings so many of mankind's problems to the surface so they can be dealt with. After all, when you think you have God's backing, you hold nothing back.

    That's what I see. It's very clear!!
     
  4. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    The Bible was written by men but inspired by God and has gathered flaws over time, most of which have been corrected and answered as far as I know.
    I look at what God did as written in the Bible and have my questions but still trust God and I seem to get explanations for most of my questions.
    Where do you get information about God?
     
  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Adam was Not dead (lost his life) that God had to revive him (m-to-m).
    Adam was formed or fashioned from the dust of the ground - Genesis 2:7
    Adam then had both the ' breath of life ' ( breathing in and out ) and the 'spark of life' ( one's spirit )
    When Adam died his ' spark/ spirit ' went out like a burned out light bulb.
    Thus, Adam ' returned ' to where he started from - Genesis 3:19
    A person ( All of a person ) can Not ' return ' to a place he never was before.
    One's spirit (IT) goes back to God as per Ecclesiastes 12:7 B.
    That means any future life prospect now lies in God's hands.
    Like a foreclosed house does Not move or go anywhere but is returned to the owner's hands.
    So, any future life for one's spirit (IT) depends on a resurrection - Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
     
  6. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Right, I find nothing at www.jw.org that teaches the soul does Not die.
    I find as James 5:20 gives the possibility of saving a soul from death.
    If the soul is death proof, then Adam is alive.
    If Adam was death proof, what would be the point of God saying Adam would die if Adam broke God's Law_____
    I find Not post-mortem penalty, No double jeopardy for Adam, but returning to where Adam started.
    Right, I find nothing at www.jw.org that the soul is death proof / immortal.
    I find at James 5:20 that a soul can be saved (in other words then: or a soul can Not be saved)
    I find nothing in Genesis that Adam was death proof, just that Adam became a living soul (or person)
    If Adam could Not die then God lied that if Adam broke the Law Adam would die.
    I find No post-mortem penalty for dead Adam, No double jeopardy for sinner Adam.
    Just that all of Adam ' returned ' to dust.- Genesis 2:7; Genesis 3:19
    Or, as Ezekiel 18:4; Ezekiel 18:20 says the soul that sins dies. Adam sinned all of Adam died.
     
  7. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Right, Ecclesiastes 12:7 does Not say one's spirit (IT) is alive.
    An "IT" is Not a person, so would Not be male or female.
    Just as God's spirit (IT) is Not a person - Numbers 11:17; Numbers 11:25
    Yes, No resurrection for anyone committing the unforgivable sin - Matthew 12:32
    Perpetual sleep for such ones - Jeremiah 51:39; Jeremiah 51:57.
    Never to be conscious again -> Ecclesiastes 9:5 ; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; John 11:11-14.
    Without the Resurrection Hope a person would go out of existence forever at death.- Acts of the Apostles 24:15
    The living do Not need a resurrection, so a 'dead living person' needs No resurrection.
    In God's eyes, because of the future resurrection - Hebrews 11:17-20, Abe, Isaac, and Jacob can be viewed as alive.
     
  8. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    Did God tell you He inspired the writing of the Bible? No God did not!! Mankind did. What else would you think they would say establishing a religion?

    The Bible reflects mankind more than anything else. The Bible values so many of those petty things mankind holds so dear. If you really knew God at all, you could see that the Bible is not God. On the other hand, if you value all those petty things mankind holds so dear, then you will probably be blind to it all until you have acquired enough lessons and understanding to actually see for yourself. One can not move to a Higher Level valuing those petty things.

    In this time-based causal universe, God's actions can be seen. When you understand God's actions, you understand God. Put enough of the pieces of the puzzle together along with understanding and you might just get a visit from God. This is the point where you will not have to believe because you will know!!

    That's what I see. It's very clear!!
     
  9. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    The spark of life is spirit as you say and so man is body and spirit. The spirit part does not just go out like a flame it returns to God for care and He cares for it because it returns to a body at the resurrection.
    This spirit is the soul that Jesus spoke of when He said that the soul does not die at the death of the body. (Matt 10:28)
    What do you say happens to the soul at the death of the body?????
    The resurrection is the resurrection of both spirit and body. This is the whole person. Any future hope for the whole of the person is in the hand of God,,,,,,,,,,,,,but how can you say that spirit/life dies with the body?
    This life/ spirit is more than just a force and as I have pointed out it knows our mind (1Cor 2:11) but you say it is just a force that is snuffed out. This spiritual part of man is the whole of the man after death and the whole of the man is the soul and so it is called the soul,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and it does not die at the death of the body.
    Do you think that if God made a copy of you it would be you????
     
  10. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    You would not find anything about the soul not dying at www.jw.org because they deny what Jesus said, that the soul does not die at the death of the body.
    They deny that Abraham and Isaac and Jacob are still alive as Jesus said.
    They see a definition of "soul" in Genesis 2 and stick with that definition and see nothing else.
    Surely you know that words have more than one meaning.
    Someone dying is not the reversal of what happened when Adam was created.
    The spirit/life which knows our mind and that God is the Father of (Heb 12:9) has grown while living in the body, just as the body develops and grows and is much more than a spark of life, it it the essence of who we are.
    Do you think that God is the Father of a spark of life (Heb 12:9)?????
    Or is God the Father of our spirit and our body is just the vessel for the spirit, and that is why the body can be changed but the spirit goes on into the next body.

    I did not say anything about the soul being death proof, what I said is that it lives on after the death of the body as Jesus said. Matt 10:28 says it can be destroyed but obviously it's destruction is not at the death of the body.
    Adam sinned and Adam died, the man Adam died and his living soul went to sheol and will be resurrected to see if the spirit part of Adam along with the body will be destroyed at the second death.
    JWs are taught that at death the whole person disappears but the Bible nowhere says that, and in facts says the opposite.
    But again, don't go into the usual JW thing of saying that the Bible does not say that the soul is immortal......................I did not say it is immortal.
     
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Not to be what we think but what God thinks as found in Scripture:
    Matthew 10:28 B, rather be in fear of who who can DESTROY BOTH soul and body in Gehenna ( KJV hell fire )
    The wicked will be ' destroyed ' forever - Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22
    Destroyed according to Luke at Acts of the Apostles 3:23.
    The choice is to ' repent ' if one does Not want to ' perish ' ( <-meaning be destroyed ) - 2 Peter 3:9.
    The soul that sins dies - Ezekiel 18:4; Ezekiel 18:20; James 5:20.

    What happens to the soul at death is what happened to Adam at his death - Genesis 3:19
    Adam (all of Adam) 'returned' to where Adam started the dust of the ground.
    The resurrection does Not mean a copy made, but the person himself, just in a healthy body.
    ALL the resurrections that Jesus performed the persons were resurrected or brought back to life as healthy people.
    Jesus was giving us a preview, a small sample of what he will be doing during his thousand-year reign over Earth.
    God puts 'it' the spirit of life, the spark of life back in the person himself - Ecclesiastes 12:7 B
     
  12. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Life is not alive???

    1Cor 2:11 tells us that our spirit knows our mind and that the Spirit of God knows God's mind. Something that knows things is alive.
    Numbers 11:17,25 do not say that the Spirit is not a person.
    The Spirit is living water, the Spirit of Truth comes to dwell in a Christian. (John 14:16,17)

    Why do you say that????
    The Bible tells us that there will be a resurrection for everyone.

    All that means is that they will die and that Babylon will be destroyed and so there will not ever be people of Babylon again. It looks like poetic language.

    Never to be conscious again -> Ecclesiastes 9:5 ; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; John 11:11-14.
    Without the Resurrection Hope a person would go out of existence forever at death.- Acts of the Apostles 24:15
    The living do Not need a resurrection, so a 'dead living person' needs No resurrection.
    In God's eyes, because of the future resurrection - Hebrews 11:17-20, Abe, Isaac, and Jacob can be viewed as alive.[/QUOTE]

    Psalm 115:16 The highest heavens belong to the LORD, but the earth He has given to mankind. 17 It is not the dead who praise the LORD, nor any who descend into silence. 18 But it is we who will bless the LORD, both now and forevermore. Hallelujah!…

    What do you think verse 18 means??

    Eccles 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, because the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Their love, their hate, and their envy have already vanished, and they will never again have a share in all that is done under the sun.…

    Do you think this might be saying that the dead don't know what is going on on the earth?
    It certainly does not say that they are unconscious.

    Isa 38:18 For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.

    Sounds like a place of silence (no ears, no noise), just waiting and resting either in peace or unrest as is shown in Luke 16.

    Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

    Nothing there or anywhere in the Bible says that we go out of existence at death. Show me where it says that.

    How does Heb 11:17-20 end up negating what Jesus said about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob being alive?
    Yes in God's eyes they can be viewed as alive but in Jesus teaching the soul does not die at the death of the body and so they are actually alive after the death of the body but not as whole humans.
     
  13. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    What petty things are you talking about?
    What makes you think that you know what God's actions are and can see them?
    Why do you think that the Bible is just the work of men when there are so many prophecies that came true in it?
     
  14. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    Petty things like Ruling, Controlling, Judging, Condemning, Hating, Wrath, Anger, Intimidating, Coercing. Payback, Creating a we against they, Teaching people they are flawed from birth or that there is something wrong with them, Teaching people God has favorites, Teaching people God is a conditional God and it goes on.

    Did not God create this world? What actions or parameters do you see? Why is it done this way? If all the physics of this world add up perfectly so must the people factor. How does the people factor add up perfectly? Why does religion teach people that this world is a mess when in reality it is a creation of God and a Masterpiece?

    You can't see any actions of God because you do not question. You do not look. You accept then close your eyes.

    My Horoscope has as many prophecies or more that come true as the Bible.

    No one should depend on beliefs or faith. The only way to know the real truth is to Discover it for yourself. If you put enough of the pieces together along with acquiring understanding, God might pay you a visit to confirm your Discoveries. At this point you will not have to believe. You will know!!

    That's what I see. It's very clear!!
     
  15. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Hmm I think half those things are not taught in the Bible and the other half are seen as wrong and/or to be avoided and the other half are OK when handled correctly.

    This world is a mess because of the people factor.

    I can see God doing those things He said in the Bible that He will do.

    Horoscope is false prophecy. The Bible is true prophecy.

    It's easier to have faith in God than to try to put all the pieces together when there is Satan who is deceiving everyone.
     
  16. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it is easier to believe and have faith than it is to Discover the truth, however the results are so much different. I always have been one who needed to Know rather than merely believe.

    If you really understood God and what God is doing with this world, you would see this world is a Masterpiece. The dynamics of God's system are amazing.

    I am not talking about what God will do. I am talking about the actions that make this world what it is today, why it's being done, and where it is leading.

    Have you really never read a horoscope that did actually come true or fit?

    Prophecy is useless energy spent. Sure people can make an educated guess. How many things in sci-fi movies will eventually come true? On the other hand, nothing meaningful I can see has come from it. Give me the next billion dollar lottery number and I might be impressed........ or suspicious.

    God is big on what is. God isn't playing games with prophecy as proof God exists. God isn't playing games. God hides nothing. God Loves Unconditionally. It has never ever been about believing or following. God's system does not depend on beliefs. God's system works regardless of what you are believing. There is Genius behind it all. Everything about God will add up unlike all those holy books written by mankind. Finally, God doesn't value all those petty things mankind holds so dear. God is truly at a Higher Level.

    Oh yes, Satan does not exist. Satan is a creation of mankind who holds the petty thing of Blame so dear!!

    That's what I see. It's very clear!!
     
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