Question about Baha'i scripture

[dybmh]

In a recent thread the concept of progressive revelation is being discussed. I am struggling with reconciling this concept of "Progress" from the perspective of a Jewish person whose scripture ( Deuteronomy Chapter 28 ) explicitly forbids following someone similar to Jesus as described in the New Testament. IMO, this is not progress.

I am looking for scripture/text from Baha'i sources that help to reconcile Deuteronomy 28 with the New Testament. I would appreciate limiting responses only to Baha'i scripture/text which explicitly speaks about Deuteronomy 28. This would be ideal. However lacking that, anything Baha'i ( not Christian ) that helps reconcile these two ( IMHO ) very different belief systems would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In a recent thread the concept of progressive revelation is being discussed. I am struggling with reconciling this concept of "Progress" from the perspective of a Jewish person whose scripture ( Deuteronomy Chapter 28 ) explicitly forbids following someone similar to Jesus as described in the New Testament. IMO, this is not progress.

I am looking for scripture/text from Baha'i sources that help to reconcile Deuteronomy 28 with the New Testament. I would appreciate limiting responses only to Baha'i scripture/text which explicitly speaks about Deuteronomy 28. This would be ideal. However lacking that, anything Baha'i ( not Christian ) that helps reconcile these two ( IMHO ) very different belief systems would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Hello,

Would you like to explain which parts of Deut. 28, you believe explicitly forbids following someone similar to Jesus, and how or in what respect?

 

[dybmh]

Hello,

Would you like to explain which parts of Deut. 28, you believe explicitly forbids following someone similar to Jesus, and how or in what respect?

Have you read Chapter 28 recently?

But really all I need to get started is 28:1. See below: ( all courtesy of sefaria.com )

Deuteronomy 28:1

The last hebrew word on the first line of the text. It looks like three words connected by 2 hyphens...

That says : "es kal mitzvosav"... there is no ambiguity, It says "all these commandments".

Jesus did not support this statement. The commandments were drastically reduced. I simply cannot follow Jesus as described in the New Testament *and* obey what is incumbent on me as Jewish person by birth in the Torah.

If you keep reading Chapter 28, you'll see that many blessings are promised for those who **observe faithfully ALL the commandments**. Not some, not just the ones that are loving and compassionate... ALL.

The blessings stop at verse 15. See below:

Note... the last word in hebrew... the same three words connected by two hyphens. There is no ambiguity here either... "es kal mitzvosav". Literally... it's the same words but now... it's a curse.

Follow "ALL" the commandments or else... what?

Keep reading...

Verse 32...

Keep reading...

Verse 41:

Verse 45:

Verse 53:

and it continues...

Verse 58 is interesting... look at this

Look at the 4th word in Hebrew. Notice the similarity? Except this is an even stronger statement than before! "es kal div'rai HaTorah" That means "ALL that is said in The Torah". No ambiguity what so ever.

And then the curses continue...

Verse 59:

Verse 60:

Verse 61: It will be worse than the plagues. Worse.

 

[dybmh]

@InvestigateTruth , It keeps going and going and going... my friend. It's the whole chapter.

This isn't one verse that can be misunderstood or mistranslated. This is clear. Crystal clear. the only way a to make Jesus of the New Testament "Kosher" is to remove **the entire chapter**.

And the punishments aren't about me... I'm not worried about me... It's my Kids... I hope you noticed that the verses that I chose focus on the children.

Does that explain it?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Have you read Chapter 28 recently?

But really all I need to get started is 28:1. See below:

View attachment 35029

Deuteronomy 28:1

The last hebrew word on the first line of the text. It looks like three words connected by 2 hyphens...

That says : "es kal mitzvosav"... there is no ambiguity, It says "all these commandments".

Jesus did not support this statement. The commandments were drastically reduced. I simply cannot follow Jesus as described in the New Testament *and* obey what is incumbent on me as Jewish person my birth in the Torah.

Ok, I will give you how I understand this verse.
I agree, Jesus changed the laws of Moses.
In my view, the term 'this Day', in this verse, means this dispensation, or an Age for which Moses Laws had come. So, in Bahai view, a day, is not always literally a 24 hour day. In scriptures, a day, sometimes mean, an age or a time, a Prophet has revealed a new Law. In our view, Noahide laws, was also somewhat different from law of Abraham, and laws of Abraham were somewhat different than Moses laws. Each had revealed a Law for their own Day.

 

[dybmh]

Ok, I will give you how I understand this verse.
I agree, Jesus changed the laws of Moses.
In my view, the term 'this Day', in this verse, means this dispensation, or an Age for which Moses Laws had come. So, in Bahai view, a day, is not always literally a 24 hour day. In scriptures, a day, sometimes mean, an age or a time, a Prophet has revealed a new Law. In our view, Noahide laws, was also somewhat different from law of Abraham, and laws of Abraham were somewhat different than Moses laws. Each had revealed a Law for their own Day.

My turn to ask for clarification...

Are you talking about verse 1? And please confirm that you read the rest of the chapter, or at least the curses that I mentioned. Please note the tense in these verses. Even if what you're saying about a day is true. Let's say i grant you that. it still doesn't invalidate all the future curses.

Also what about verse 58? In this verse the word "day" isn't even in the verse. It's every spoken word of Torah. In **perpetuity**.

Please go back and re-read these verses? Please.

Is there anything else besides a redefined duration of a "day"? And is there anything... anything at all that would supersede verse 58?

"es kal div'rai ha-Torah" that's everything. It's not limited to a day anymore. There is no way to follow Jesus as described in the New Testament without being liable for ALL the curses in this chapter.

Help me understand it *any* different way? Any.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

My turn to ask for clarification...

Are you talking about verse 1? And please confirm that you read the rest of the chapter, or at least the curses that I mentioned. Please note the tense in these verses. Even if what you're saying about a day is true. Let's say i grant you that. it still doesn't invalidate all the future curses.

Also what about verse 58? In this verse the word "day" isn't even in the verse. It's every spoken word of Torah. In **perpetuity**.

Please go back and re-read these verses? Please.

Is there anything else besides a redefined duration of a "day"? And is there anything... anything at all that would supersede verse 58?

"es kal div'rai ha-Torah" that's everything. It's not limited to a day anymore. There is no way to follow Jesus as described in the New Testament without being liable for ALL the curses in this chapter.

Help me understand it *any* different way? Any.

Yes, I was speaking about verse 1. In my view all those warnings or curses are valid for all the times, but, God can at anytime change His own Laws, whenever He wants according to His wisdom and requirements of an age.
This is what Bahaullah says with this regard:


"The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements."

This is the Bahai view anyways.

 

[dybmh]

Yes, I was speaking about verse 1. In my view all those warnings or curses are valid for all the times, but, God can at anytime change His own Laws, whenever He wants according to His wisdom and requirements of an age.
This is what Bahaullah says with this regard:


"The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements."

This is the Bahai view anyways.

So the whole chapter is invalid? How is that progressive? It replaces the Torah. It doesn't build on it.

That's what I think it comes down to.

I have no problem with anyone saying that their prophet knows best. No problem at all.

The problem I have is the claim that Baha'ullah is building on The Torah. It seems like it's knocking it to the ground and starting over.

That's where I'm stuck. Is what you are describing progressive, or is it a complete redo?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So the whole chapter is invalid? How is that progressive? It replaces the Torah. It doesn't build on it.

That's what I think it comes down to.

I have no problem with anyone saying that their prophet knows best. No problem at all.

The problem I have is the claim that Baha'ullah is building on The Torah. It seems like it's knocking it to the ground and starting over.

That's where I'm stuck. Is what you are describing progressive, or is it a complete redo?

I can see the problem you are putting forward, I see my problem in explaining all this, is that the first faith I embraced and studied has writings that cover all those questions, so I take what Baha'u'llah offered as part of what I read. Thus when I explain, I explain from a different frame of reference. Thus I see this is the clash in the progression.

In Revelation 11, a prophecy based chapter, there is a passage explained by Adul'baha that shows that God does change Laws as required for the Age and it shows a transition from Jewish based Law, to a more Liberal Christian view then back to Muhammad which is again more Law Based Faith and on to an age of fulfillment of all that is in the past.

If you choose to read this explanation, it is where a Baha'i will draw many thoughts from, it also shows that Muhammad is foretold.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

I can see the problem you are putting forward, I see my problem in explaining all this, is that the first faith I embraced and studied has writings that cover all those questions, so I take what Baha'u'llah offered as part of what I read. Thus when I explain, I explain from a different frame of reference. Thus I see this is the clash in the progression.

Yeah man... it's been a journey. But I do appreciate that we are here now at a place of mutual understanding.

In Revelation 11, a prophecy based chapter, there is a passage explained by Adul'baha that shows that God does change Laws as required for the Age and it shows a transition from Jewish based Law, to a more Liberal Christian view then back to Muhammad which is again more Law Based Faith and on to an age of fulfillment of all that is in the past.

If you choose to read this explanation, it is where a Baha'i will draw many thoughts from, it also shows that Muhammad is foretold.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

I'll check it out Tony, Thanks.

 

[arthra]

In a recent thread the concept of progressive revelation is being discussed. I am struggling with reconciling this concept of "Progress" from the perspective of a Jewish person whose scripture ( Deuteronomy Chapter 28 ) explicitly forbids following someone similar to Jesus as described in the New Testament. IMO, this is not progress.

I am looking for scripture/text from Baha'i sources that help to reconcile Deuteronomy 28 with the New Testament. I would appreciate limiting responses only to Baha'i scripture/text which explicitly speaks about Deuteronomy 28. This would be ideal. However lacking that, anything Baha'i ( not Christian ) that helps reconcile these two ( IMHO ) very different belief systems would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

"dybmh"

Perhaps you need see that the conditions of life and mentality of the times in Deuteronomy were different than in the times of the Gospel...
John 5:46 has " 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me."

Also Jesus explained there was to be a "new commandment": In John 13th chapter: 3Little children, I am with you only a little while longer. You will look for Me, and as I said to the Jews, so now I say to you: ‘Where I am going, you cannot come.’ 34A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so also you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another.”…

Here is a definition of Progressive Revelation as Baha'is see it:

'Abdu'l-Bahá noted that "the world of existence is progressive. It is subject to development and growth" (Promulgation of Universal Peace, 378). Since revelation is part of the world, thus it must also develop and change; and the progressive revealing of divine truth is one of the main causes for the progress of human civilization. The Bahá'í scriptures assert that while all revelations bring eternal and unchanging teachings--such as teachings about one's relation to the divine, and moral fundamentals such as doing unto others as one would have them do to oneself--each also brings truths suited to its own time and place. Thus Abraham focused much of His mission on teaching the existence of one God; Moses was able to move beyond assertion of the existence of one God and reveal laws that established the relationship between God and Israelite society; Jesus revealed about the individual relationship to God, thereby broadening and deepening the relationship established by Moses's social laws; Muhammad was able to integrate the two into a holistic system for personal and social relationship to the divine; and Bahá'u'lláh was able to update the personal and social relationship for the modern age. Because each revelation has a temporal aspect, it must eventually be superseded by a new revelation. The Bahá'í scriptures state that each revelation builds on the previous revelation known in that part of the world, and in turn becomes the foundation for a subsequent revelation.

Progressive Revelation

You might also be interested in the site below:

Independent investigation of truth - Oneness of Religions

 

[arthra]

"egarding the statement in The Hidden Words, that man must renounce his own self, the meaning is that he must renounce his inordinate desires, his selfish purposes and the promptings of his human self, and seek out the holy breathings of the spirit, and follow the yearnings of his higher self, and immerse himself in the sea of sacrifice, with his heart fixed upon the beauty of the All-Glorious.
As for the reference in The Hidden Words regarding the Covenant entered into on Mount Párán, this signifieth that in the sight of God the past, the present and the future are all one and the same—whereas, relative to man, the past is gone and forgotten, the present is fleeting, and the future is within the realm of hope. And it is a basic principle of the Law of God that in every Prophetic Mission, He entereth into a Covenant with all believers—a Covenant that endureth until the end of that Mission, until the promised day when the Personage stipulated at the outset of the Mission is made manifest. Consider Moses, He Who conversed with God. Verily, upon Mount Sinai, Moses entered into a Covenant regarding the Messiah, with all those souls who would live in the day of the Messiah. And those souls, although they appeared many centuries after Moses, were nevertheless—so far as the Covenant, which is outside time, was concerned—present there with Moses. The Jews, however, were heedless of this and remembered it not, and thus they suffered a great and clear loss.
As to the reference in the Arabic Hidden Words that the human being must become detached from self, here too the meaning is that he should not seek out anything whatever for his own self in this swiftly-passing life, but that he should cut the self away, that is, he should yield up the self and all its concerns on the field of martyrdom, at the time of the coming of the Lord."

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• | Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Page 207

 

[Tober Canton]

Have you read Chapter 28 recently?

But really all I need to get started is 28:1. See below: ( all courtesy of sefaria.com )

View attachment 35029

Deuteronomy 28:1

The last hebrew word on the first line of the text. It looks like three words connected by 2 hyphens...

That says : "es kal mitzvosav"... there is no ambiguity, It says "all these commandments".

Jesus did not support this statement. The commandments were drastically reduced. I simply cannot follow Jesus as described in the New Testament *and* obey what is incumbent on me as Jewish person by birth in the Torah.

If you keep reading Chapter 28, you'll see that many blessings are promised for those who **observe faithfully ALL the commandments**. Not some, not just the ones that are loving and compassionate... ALL.

The blessings stop at verse 15. See below:

View attachment 35030

Note... the last word in hebrew... the same three words connected by two hyphens. There is no ambiguity here either... "es kal mitzvosav". Literally... it's the same words but now... it's a curse.

Follow "ALL" the commandments or else... what?

Keep reading...

Verse 32...

View attachment 35031

Keep reading...

Verse 41:

View attachment 35032

Verse 45:

View attachment 35033

Verse 53:

View attachment 35034

and it continues...

Verse 58 is interesting... look at this

View attachment 35035

Look at the 4th word in Hebrew. Notice the similarity? Except this is an even stronger statement than before! "es kal div'rai HaTorah" That means "ALL that is said in The Torah". No ambiguity what so ever.

And then the curses continue...

Verse 59:

View attachment 35037

Verse 60:

View attachment 35038

Verse 61: It will be worse than the plagues. Worse.

View attachment 35039

I think that a fuller understanding of what you're asking is more important.
And I don't speak from a Baha'i or even Islamic perspective here but of the Judeo-Christian turbulence of the 1st century CE.

On one hand, we have Jesus himself saying various things as recorded in the four NT Gospels (as well as other texts like the Gospel of Thomas), then we have Paul saying things about Jesus in the Gentile stream of early Christianity which was obviously evangelized to pagans, things that are in clear dissonance with Judaism of course.
Obviously there were Jews that did follow Jesus in the first century (largely dominated by the stream of James the Just, his brother and rightful successor) but they would never become the majority and were consequently maligned by the stream of gentile/pagan Christianity proliferating from the teachings of Paul who had a rather almost hostile view towards the Torah (despite being accredited to otherwise by the writer of the Book of Acts). This in part is what helped Paulian Christianity to flourish and take power because unlike Jesus himself, Paul's teachings really appealed to the Gentiles/Pagans.

Again it's a complex situation. The Church that became formative Catholicism (and subsequently Protestantism) has always had quite an opposition to the Torah (well aside from the general accounts of the Prophets in Genesis and Exodus/Numbers).
Whilst the Catholic Church itself did have a kind of law system, it was largely antinomian in contrast to that of Torah-observant Judaism (and subsequent Sharia-observant Islam).

When we dig through the four Gospels of the NT, there are some controversial aspects Toraically speaking (though you will find controversial equivalents sometimes in debates between Rabbis in the Talmud) however it is very very clear that Jesus himself commanded the following of the Torah, prohibiting not following it:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Nevi'im; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Torah until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom (Malkut) of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom (Malkut) of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the Torah, you will certainly not enter the kingdom (Malkut) of heaven."
(Matthew 5:17-20)​

Also remember to try to avoid reading any of the New Testament through the anachronistic lens Christian doctrine/creed because that will hit you over the head a few times (as to me, as Christianity is clearly completely alien to the original Jewish context of Jesus and the rest of the NT).

As the above quote states, following the Torah is a commandment from Jesus (Yeshua).

As another verse says:

He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight. “The Torah and the Nevi'im were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the Gospel of the kingdom (Malkut) of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
(Luke 16:15-17)​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

My turn to ask for clarification...

Are you talking about verse 1? And please confirm that you read the rest of the chapter, or at least the curses that I mentioned. Please note the tense in these verses. Even if what you're saying about a day is true. Let's say i grant you that. it still doesn't invalidate all the future curses.

Also what about verse 58? In this verse the word "day" isn't even in the verse. It's every spoken word of Torah. In **perpetuity**.

Please go back and re-read these verses? Please.

Is there anything else besides a redefined duration of a "day"? And is there anything... anything at all that would supersede verse 58?

"es kal div'rai ha-Torah" that's everything. It's not limited to a day anymore. There is no way to follow Jesus as described in the New Testament without being liable for ALL the curses in this chapter.

Help me understand it *any* different way? Any.

So the whole chapter is invalid? How is that progressive? It replaces the Torah. It doesn't build on it.

That's what I think it comes down to.

I have no problem with anyone saying that their prophet knows best. No problem at all.

The problem I have is the claim that Baha'ullah is building on The Torah. It seems like it's knocking it to the ground and starting over.

That's where I'm stuck. Is what you are describing progressive, or is it a complete redo?

I have been away for a while and came back to this thread, as it is a most Important topic, it is about Gods Covenants.

I see the founding laws do not alter, God will always look after us. To me the specific verse 58 quoted above above to me shows our neglect of the progression.

My vision of that book has become wider than the Jewish Scripture, as I see God has given teachings to other peoples and other Nations also giving a covenant, that if they Hold to the love of One God in service to each other and the terms of their Book, then we have not broken the terms of the Law when we embrace a law suited to a specific age.

All the Messages have the potential to be Global, but mankind was not ready for a Global Community, thus I see the Message of Baha'u'llah is that of the promised Messiah, where all the Covenants are brought to fruition under One God, with the center of the Law, the Throne of David, coming from Zion, the ARC of the Covenant and based in the Holy Land. A land God promised that all Jews would return to and Embrace the One God.

It is amazing that people of all Faiths have embraced this concept and many prophecies about Mount Carmel and the Holy land can be shown to be have fulfilled.

But it is bigger than how we can explain it, as this Oneness is much bigger than we can contemplate, I see it will eventually go Universal and beyond. We have just started progression of the human species and I see we have a lot to learn from other species in the future. At this time we have to come to terms with the world we live on and how we are one people under One God, which is the God of the Jews.

I do add the disclaimer that I also put above. I see this from the oneness found in the writings of Baha'u'llah and it is only when I use those keys that I look for the same Oneness in all Faiths and all People.

My question really to all people of all faiths and no faith is, if the Message of Baha'u'llah in not the Messianic Hope, or the hope of all other faiths have for a promised age of peace, oneness and justice under One God, where Love dominates our minds, what else shall we wait for?

When I go on Pilgrimage to the Holy Land and stand on the front step of the Shrine of the Bab, Looking back over Akka and Bahji where Baha'u'llah is laid to rest and offer prayers for the world. I marvel how God unfolds His plans and how we are so small a part in a never ending progression. But we are given that chance, for a very short span of time on one very small planet earth.

I hope you are well and happy dybmh and most importantly, I wish for your family, what you also wish for them.

I am at an age where I wished I had done a lot more, somehow....but that is life, Little by little day by day and others will feed off any seeds left behind.

Regards Tony