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Quantum Mysticism

idav

Being
Premium Member
I have seen claims that experiments show mystical type aspects of quantum mechanics. I am highly skeptical of these sort of claims. I want to address one type of experiment that people use to determine that our choice can affect the distant past. After seeing the basics of the experiment it doesn't seem to suggest that at all. All the experiment suggested is that a photon is both a wave and a particle which we already knew. Am I missing something here?

[youtube]3A6ageOaS-E[/youtube]
The Delayed-Choice Double Slit Experiment - YouTube
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
It might help if I describe where the supposed contradiction is. In the video it starts at about 2 1/2 minutes.

The claim of the video is that when the photons go through the slits and that our choices on how to run the experiment determines the state of the photon. They try and prove this by showing that when the photons go through the splits they show the wave on the screen. But then when they remove the screen some telescopes in the back of the screen see a photon.

To me your just observing the dual nature of a photon that it is a particle and that is has a particular spin. I don't see how that means that the experimenters choices affect the state of the particle even if they are trying to trick the photon by removing the screen after the slits have been passed.
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
All the experiment suggested is that a photon is both a wave and a particle which we already knew.

A and not A is true?
No, the experiment does not show the photon is both a wave and a particle. It shows the photon is either a wave or a particle. It is never seen to be both, that is impossible.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
A and not A is true?
No, the experiment does not show the photon is both a wave and a particle. It shows the photon is either a wave or a particle. It is never seen to be both, that is impossible.

They are both which was observed in the experiment. One photon 'particle' is able to create the interference pattern without literally being an multiple places at once.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
The wave is due to the way the particle travels, its state or spin. You test whether a photon is a wave comes out true. You test if it is a particle and it comes out true so the wave-particle duality isn't contradictory.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
Photons/electrons/etc are not a wave or a particle. They're wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey things that work like waves sometimes, particles others, and wibbly-wobbly things the rest of the time.

The most accurate way to think of them is perhaps as 4D clouds of infinitely small arrows that point all over the place. Not surprisingly, not many people do this. :D
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Photons/electrons/etc are not a wave or a particle. They're wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey things that work like waves sometimes, particles others, and wibbly-wobbly things the rest of the time.

The most accurate way to think of them is perhaps as 4D clouds of infinitely small arrows that point all over the place. Not surprisingly, not many people do this. :D

Is there every a point that a photon is not a particle? Sure it is wibbly-wobbly and can have all sorts of wave-function state but a change of state doesn't change the nature of what the particle is.

In the video the mysticism starts when the explanation for the wave function collapses was attributed a now choice(made by the experimentor) affecting the choice? the photon made after it passed the slits. Not being able to observe the photon in a wave state is problematic. The photon is scared to get caught with it's pants down?
 
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PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
Is there every a point that a photon is not a particle? Sure it is wibbly-wobbly and can have all sorts of wave-function state but a change of state doesn't change the nature of what the particle is.
It never was a particle. See later.

In the video the mysticism starts when the explanation for the wave function collapses was attributed a now choice(made by the experimentor) affecting the choice? the photon made after it passed the slits. Not being able to observe the photon in a wave state is problematic. The photon is scared to get caught with it's pants down?
Wavefunction collapse isn't really a coherent thing, in terms of logic. It's the result of trying to hang on to the macroscopic (and rather comforting) notion of there being only one world where things happen in a linear order. If you instead work from the logic of quantum mechanics upwards to the macroscopic, you wind up with multiple-world QM.

What the wavefunction actually describes is the probability that the quantum thing interacts at that particular place. (Except the values themselves aren't probabilities, and so add together strangely. You have to do a little simplification to get the probabilities out.) In some cases, this'll be near 1, and the quantum thing will behave very like a localized particle. In others, it'll be much smaller, and consequently more spread out, and behave very much like a wave. (It'll be spread out because the entire probability-volume of the wavefunction has to add to 1; the particle has to be somewhere.)

In Copenhagen QM, we get some ontological wibbliness because the quantum thing has to choose from these probabilities "randomly" (in a philosophically ill-defined way) and then it interacts there, and we carry on our merry, classical way as though it was a Newtonian particle all along. :D

In MWQM, on the other hand, there is no choosing. Instead, the future continues exactly as the wavefunction did. Now, that's quite tricky to think of, so here's a concrete example: in the double-slit experiment, the wavefunction shows a variety of places the electron is likely to land on the screen. In MW, all of these are in some way "real" - and consequently, there is a variety of you, all of whom see the electron land somewhere slightly different. Then, all of the different yous react, and all of them think they saw the electron land in only one place, and so all of them think the wavefunction has collapsed.

But really, they've just been entangled in it, and turned into a superposition themselves. :cool:

(About the linear order thing: in quantum mechanics, you can do the maths by selecting a starting position, selecting an ending position, and calculating the probability that your start will turn into your end. One issue this produces is that you can swap your beginning and end and normally end up with the same value, and they can be anything you like. So transitioning between any two states of the universe has some non-zero probability. Including completely nonsensical ones.)
 
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Leonardo

Active Member
If you've ever programmed with a hardware accelerated graphics library you run into a big problem, and that is between any two points are an infinite set of points, space is infinitely divisible! How can you detect what's near you or touched you without exhausting resources across an infinite set of scales? The solution is you resolve to a scalable resolution and seed your foot print across a field. What happens when you do this, you can appear to be in multiple places at one time and you can interfere with yourself!

The Higgs field is a lot like a hit detection field used in graphics programming for games and simulations. But really there isn't any other solution to solve the problem of infinitely divisible space between any two objects...
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
But really, they've just been entangled in it, and turned into a superposition themselves. :cool:

I appreciate the explanations.

I've been giving the many worlds theory consideration and it sounds more probable than the atom choosing a path. What is interesting is the experimenters get caught up in the fact that any time you observe you see a particle. That makes sense because we can't observe a particle to be in multiple places at once, any time we observe it, it will be there as you cannot separate the observer from the observed.
 

Photonic

Ad astra!
A and not A is true?
No, the experiment does not show the photon is both a wave and a particle. It shows the photon is either a wave or a particle. It is never seen to be both, that is impossible.

Incorrect. That's why we have wave-particle duality.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
A and not A is true?
No, the experiment does not show the photon is both a wave and a particle. It shows the photon is either a wave or a particle. It is never seen to be both, that is impossible.

The wave is there because of a particle, electron, photon or whatever is microscopic enough to give an interference pattern. The wave function isn't just some immaterial consciousness.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I appreciate the explanations.

I've been giving the many worlds theory consideration and it sounds more probable than the atom choosing a path. What is interesting is the experimenters get caught up in the fact that any time you observe you see a particle. That makes sense because we can't observe a particle to be in multiple places at once, any time we observe it, it will be there as you cannot separate the observer from the observed.

Many worlds theory is not probable at all. The electron does not choose its path, it changes how it acts when it is observed. This is not a conscious choice, and I am not sure if the "why" is known or not, I am not a physicist. It's how it works though. There is no evidence for the many worlds theory, and if observation is tied to reality, and you are only observing this reality, what suggests that there are other realities?
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Many worlds theory is not probable at all. The electron does not choose its path, it changes how it acts when it is observed. This is not a conscious choice, and I am not sure if the "why" is known or not, I am not a physicist. It's how it works though. There is no evidence for the many worlds theory, and if observation is tied to reality, and you are only observing this reality, what suggests that there are other realities?

I agree there is no choice the electron makes the probability of the electron landing just about anywhere is very real. What is interesting is that the electron isn't really in all those places even though it leaves the evidence that it is in multiple places at once. This is what makes people think that the observer forces a certain outcome but any observation seems to interfere with the experiments.

The weird thing about the photon or electron being in many places at once is that there is no real explanation as to how or why the electron does that. It seems to act like a wave of water molecules even when it is just one single photon. This is what makes some believe that perhaps it actually is in many places at once but I tend to think there is a physical physics type explanation just like explaining the water molecules thing.
 
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